Penn State Scandal: The Freeh Report

Well said Goaldy. Claiming "procedure" is absurd, IMO.

In addition, I don't think Paterno will EVER be exonerated. Nor should he be.
He is, #3 on my "Worthless POS" list.

Sandusky being #1, by a mile. McQueary being #2.

I don't how he can live with himself. I'm shocked his wife hasn't left him yet.
And I fully expect he will die by his own hand.

If his conscious ever shows up.
 
China pointed it out perfectly. If the people at PSU had adhered to the rules and policies, then the molestation would've ceased much sooner than what we have learned.

Exactly. Except Joe Paterno covered it up! And you think he will be exonerated? On what planet?
 
Sorry BB. Paterno's name is mud and will always be mud. He was selfish, concerned only for his own legacy and the interests of his football program.

Well said Goaldy. Claiming "procedure" is absurd, IMO.


Yep. There is no "procedure" in any educational institution anywhere that allows the abuse of children to continue for 14 years. 14 years! While Sandusky was still being treated like PSU royalty!
 
I also agree with Lanky on the NCAA having jurisdiction.

And the message they are sending across the college football universe is this. If you cover up such horrific, egregious acts, in an effort to protect your precious little football program, we will make double damn sure your efforts are rewarded, appropriately.

PSU is also being used as an example to other football dependent institutions to check the power of their coaches, lest those coaches allow the institutions to become, what it did in this instance, a PSU.
Pedophile Sanctuary University
 
If you are a teacher and continued to go over the principal's head without consulting her/him first, then you are subject to termination. Quickly. End of story right there.

So you believe your job is more important that doing the right thing? That's an interesting set of morals. If child rape is not where the line is drawn, then were is the line drawn in your mind? What if it was a murder we were talking about?

It is not the responsibility of a teacher and/or coach to report the crime at any educational institution.

That's a convenient way of looking at things.

Convenient for the person who would rather keep their job. Not convenient for the children being raped, unfortunately.


but it is better than vigilante justice
No one is advocating for vigilante justice. We're advocating for people to protect the children they're given authority over. Deciding that your superiors are not doing the right thing by not reporting the issue to the police is not vigilante justice.

If everyone followed your set of morals (maybe these aren't your morals and you're playing devil's advocate? I can't tell at this point) we'd have no whistle blowers and god knows what some of the consequences of that would be. We have, and protect, whistle blowers for a reason; because sometimes people put money above everything else. In this case, that's exactly what happened. Money was put above the welfare of children. I find it interesting that the people at PSU are not the only ones in the education business that feel that procedure and policies take priority over the welfare of children. That is a very disturbing idea in my opinion. I can at least empathize with the people at PSU because they are being attacked by everyone at every angle; it's only natural to become overly-defensive about it. But I don't believe you have any connection to PSU so it's bewildering to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Burgundy Burner said:
It is not the responsibility of a teacher and/or coach to report the crime at any educational institution.

Just saw this - you can't really believe this, can you?
 
Goal, your wife is an educator, not you. I’m sure your wife told you that going to the nurse first is optional. The principal is in charge of the school and as such, can let the faculty know that he/she is the first to know – no exceptions. Too, I have taken the emotional aspects away from the argument and looking at it from a strictly legal point of view. The Freeh Report is not a legally binding document. It is a report that was sanctioned by NCAA/PSU and no one else. I’m simply letting everyone in this forum know that the state and federal actions could be far different than what we currently see. One more point. Are you suggesting that a teacher is not following a moral code by going to the principal first – and in quick fashion? Really?

Lanky, you quoted a guideline, not a specific set of rules. Why? State laws. State laws and statutes are different in each state and the NCAA would lose on that technicality in any courtroom – in quick fashion too. It is not legally binding and the NCAA knows it. Since the NCAA is based in Indiana, they could legally bind institutions in that state I suppose. However, it is a moot point – PSU accepted the penalties. Lanky, please don’t suggest that I, at any point in this conversation, said that procedures at any institution will lead to fourteen years of abuse. Seriously. No one in this thread would even go in that direction with me. Do you really think I am one who thinks this way???

Ax, just read the same points I made with Mike. Do you really believe that policies and procedures are absurd? They are in place to protect the children and their interests. Those rules were not followed at PSU. If they did, the only focus would’ve been on Sandusky and the heinous crimes that he committed.

Tshile, I challenge you to find where I have said that my job is more important than reporting the crime. It is being reported via the rules that are set in place – if I follow them. Do you really think I am that kind of a person??? Do you? Too, please don’t quote me out of context to suggest that I have no problems with child abuse. Furthermore, I have not defined my “set of morals” and if you feel the need to define them for me here, then please know that I will not extend you the same “courtesy”. Again, all I’m doing is sharing with everyone what is expected of a teacher/coach when confronted with such a heinous crime. Just think if schools and academic institutions had NO policies and procedures in place. That would be tragic.

Again, I understand that this is an emotional issue. The state and federal investigators know that they have a very angry mob out there, but the emotional aspects of their investigation must be filtered out as they endeavor to bring additional justice to those who truly deserve it. Their job is not an easy task under the circumstances. We’ll see what happens.

Finally, I have my own feelings about Coach Paterno and may share them some day. In previous entries in this thread, the focus I put on him came from a legal point of view only and from the perspective of former/current players. Sure, he may never be exonerated by some or many in the public realm – much like we see here. It is your right to have such an opinion.

What saddens me about this debate is that some of you seem to think that I am ok with what happened. Seriously. As a former teacher and coach, it appalls me to see abuse like this and in other forms. I’ll always be an advocate of the children and a firm supporter of the rules and policies that are in place. When utilized correctly, they work in the best interests of the children.
 
Just saw this - you can't really believe this, can you?

So something I said can be taken out of context and it is ok here. However, it is not ok when talking about the president's speech in Roanoke?

If you follow the thread, I think we can all agree that the point being made was following the policies as outlined in the teacher handbook. The teacher should go to the principal first and not the local law enforcement office. I've been rather clear on this point since the beginning.

However, you and Tshile decided to take it out of context and run with it. Having set the new standards, I will hold both of you to the same in the future.
 
So something I said can be taken out of context and it is ok here. However, it is not ok when talking about the president's speech in Roanoke?

If you follow the thread, I think we can all agree that the point being made was following the policies as outlined in the teacher handbook. The teacher should go to the principal first and not the local law enforcement office. I've been rather clear on this point since the beginning.

However, you and Tshile decided to take it out of context and run with it. Having set the new standards, I will hold both of you to the same in the future.

I apologize for taking it out of context, I saw tshile had quoted that exact line, and responded. I will go back and find the full text.

EDIT:

Burgundy Burner said:
It is not the responsibility of a teacher and/or coach to report the crime at any educational institution. The minute they do so and fail to inform the superior first, they are subject to termination.

If it had been handled properly at the highest levels from the moment it was known, then there would've been far less damage. I won't deny that part of it. Yes, it became a cover up. Keep in mind that these investigations are continuing and this could very well be the outcome several months from now - or however long it takes to investigate.


That is the full context of the quote - not too much more in the way of context, unless I'm misunderstanding.
 
Paterno's legacy will always be tied to this awful business. He wasn't just some teacher. He was the most important person at PSU by about a hundred miles. He had more power and influence than any five other people at that school combined. You simply can't talk about him as some hallway janitor or seventh grade math teacher any more than you can say Michael Jordan had the same influence and responsibilities to his team as a Thundering Bob Thorton.

As is true in most other aspects of life, the person that has the most responsibility gets the most praise and the most blame. I don't consider that unfair, especially considering how much praise had been heaped upon Paterno before this and how much that benefitted both him and the school.

I do agree with those that think the NCAA took it way too easy on PSU. The reason they had to act is because this whole business reflects poorly on not just PSU but college football as a whole. It's symptomatic of something we all know about sports but don't want to admit: that we can forgive even the most egregious sins so long as our guys keep scoring TDs and sacking the QB. A serious serious message to the contrary needed to be sent, and I don't think it was. Apparently PSU having a less competitive football team for a bit is a serious punishment to some people. I think that's scary.

Honestly this business has tainted even my feeling about professional football a little. How often are we looking the other way? How often do our coaches and front offices sweep things under the rug in order to preserve our almighty football teams? I don't know, and before this all happened I didn't really want to know. And that's been part of the problem. I don't want to be part of that problem anymore.
 
Last edited:
BB - so you are saying that Paterno was 100% in the right by going to his superior instead of the police? I have a major problem with that.

Let's say instead of molestation, Sandusky was the head of an organized crime syndicate, and let's say they hijacked trucks, stole electronics, sold coke, etc. He had a major stolen-goods operation going on, on PSU grounds. Let's say McQueary walked in on him counting a bunch of cash in front of a pile of drugs or better yet, let's say he walked in on Sandusky executing a rival gang leader. Then he reported it to Paterno, and Paterno likewise went to Spanier or whoever and reported it to him.

You don't think Paterno is the least bit liable, if after 14 years nothing happened to Sandusky for murder and the sale of drugs? And he knows about it, yet continues to do nothing, and has email conversations about covering it up? Furthermore, do you really think Paterno would have been fired if he picked up the phone and dialed 911 immediately and said, "My defensive coordinator just shot someone in the head," because he didn't go through the proper channels?

I don't mean to offend, BB, but it seems like you are sticking to the guidelines a bit too strictly - at some point, common sense has to take over. You see something like this, you call. the. police. End of story!
 
Goal, your wife is an educator, not you.

FWIW, she was sitting beside me when I typed that. And I'm not sure what your point is with that anyway.

I’m sure your wife told you that going to the nurse first is optional. The principal is in charge of the school and as such, can let the faculty know that he/she is the first to know – no exceptions.

No, in her system going to the nurse first was not optional. The chain of command was followed, first nurse then principal, but if the teacher sees no action is being taken, they have a responsibility to go to social services themselves - if the teacher does not, THEY are liable. This was explained several times in seminars conducted by SS and the school system, jointly.

Too, I have taken the emotional aspects away from the argument and looking at it from a strictly legal point of view. The Freeh Report is not a legally binding document. It is a report that was sanctioned by NCAA/PSU and no one else. I’m simply letting everyone in this forum know that the state and federal actions could be far different than what we currently see.

I don't think anyone is arguing it is a legally binding document, are they? Not sure about the relevancy here either.

One more point. Are you suggesting that a teacher is not following a moral code by going to the principal first – and in quick fashion? Really?

Not really understanding this either. I am saying that a teacher is not following a moral code if they go to the principal (superior) and their superior does nothing about the situation, and THEN the teacher does nothing.
 
Paterno's legacy will always be tied to this awful business. He wasn't just some teacher. He was the most important person at PSU by about a hundred miles. He had more power and influence than any five other people at that school combined. You simply can't talk about him as some hallway janitor or seventh grade math teacher any more than you can say Michael Jordan had the same influence and responsibilities to his team as a Thundering Bob Thorton.

As is true in most other aspects of life, the person that has the most responsibility gets the most praise and the most blame. I don't consider that unfair, especially considering how much praise had been heaped upon Paterno before this and how much that benefitted both him and the school.

I do agree with those that think the NCAA took it way too easy on PSU. The reason they had to act is because this whole business reflects poorly on not just PSU but college football as a whole. It's symptomatic of something we all know about sports but don't want to admit: that we can forgive even the most egregious sins so long as our guys keep scoring TDs and sacking the QB. A serious serious message to the contrary needed to be sent, and I don't think it was. Apparently PSU having a less competitive football team for a bit is a serious punishment to some people. I think that's scary.

Honestly this business has tainted even my feeling about professional football a little. How often are we looking the other way? How often do our coaches and front offices sweep things under the rug in order to preserve our almighty football teams? I don't know, and before this all happened I didn't really want to know. And that's been part of the problem. I don't want to be part of that problem anymore.

Once again, perfectly stated.

I share your feelings about professional athletes and their actions being covered up, however I think in today's day and age its a lot harder than maybe it was even 10 years ago. Christ, the athletes these days out THEMSELVES on Twitter! I think with all the access we've got nowadays, it would be very hard to cover anything like this up.
 
Ax, just read the same points I made with Mike. Do you really believe that policies and procedures are absurd?
Of course not. Just like I don't think for a second you somehow condone this ****, while defending the "process" in place. I'm saying, in this instance, anything that doesn't involve notifying the police, immediately, is absurd. University rules be damned. They instantly take a back seat to putting an end to it, by any means necessary.

They are in place to protect the children and their interests. Those rules were not followed at PSU. If they did, the only focus would’ve been on Sandusky and the heinous crimes that he committed.
Fine. Then why don't you see it as the NCAA doing what they are supposed to do. Punish the institution for not following the rules. And, in this instance, the perpetrators represented the institution, making it eligible for said punishment.

Henry said:
I do agree with those that think the NCAA took it way too easy on PSU. The reason they had to act is because this whole business reflects poorly on not just PSU but college football as a whole. It's symptomatic of something we all know about sports but don't want to admit: that we can forgive even the most egregious sins so long as our guys keep scoring TDs and sacking the QB. A serious serious message to the contrary needed to be sent, and I don't think it was. Apparently PSU having a less competitive football team for a bit is a serious punishment to some people. I think that's scary.
That's about where I am.
 
Lanky, as I said - "if you follow the thread". But I do appreciate the effort to understand where I am coming from. Duly noted.

Anyway - just saw your latest entry.

What i'm trying to convey here is how the legal process may unfold in the coming months. The investigation continues and I was looking at the legalities only and taking the emotional aspects out of the argument.

Look, I understand that many of you have a problem with the way a school (talking elementary, middle, high) will handle these issues. Just know that these rules and procedures have been in place for a long time and have been adjusted along the way to address such crimes in a 21st century world.

As stated earlier in the thread, if I see a neighbor who has taken a child into the adjacent woods to commit a rape/molestation, then I am obligated by law to call the police immediately and report it. I don't think any of us would disagree that this is what we should do - after all, it is the law. I completely understand that all of us would like to apply the same set of standards when reporting a similar crime in a school setting. However, that is not the way it is done. Local law enforcement officials know why these rules are put into place. Ditto for social services. The principal is fully trained for these unfortunate situations if they occur. The teacher is not - unless they have had some level of introduction to it in pursuit of a graduate degree.
 
The principal is fully trained for these unfortunate situations if they occur. The teacher is not - unless they have had some level of introduction to it in pursuit of a graduate degree.

You need a graduate degree to call 911?

Yes, I know that's not what you meant, but again I think adherence to guidelines is overruling common sense here. If an educator/football coach/janitor or whatever is caught abusing children, call the police. End of story!
 
Goal, if your wife is a teacher in the state of Virginia, it would be VERY wise to go to the principal first. It sounds like the principal has said that it is ok to go to the nurse first and that his his/her choice to run the school in this way. I do know that the overwhelming majority of principals would want to know - pronto!

Yes, it is true that the teacher must contact local authorities if no action is taken by his/her superiors. That's obvious. However, I can't recall of one situation where this has occurred. Perhaps it is out there and it if is, then shame on the admin and shame on them for covering it up - just like we have seen at PSU. So we obviously agree on that subject - I was unclear on where you were coming from. Thanks for clearing it up.

Ax, thanks for the clarifications. I fully understand the emotions here and it is not an easy subject to discuss. I think we're all doing a great job of discussing it.
 
BB, that's my problem with Paterno, and why I don't think his legacy will be restored at all. He went to his superiors, they covered it up, and he did nothing. At the point that he saw them not doing anything about it, he should have gone to the cops. Period. He didn't, therefore he is part of the problem. A major part of the problem.
 
You need a graduate degree to call 911?

Yes, I know that's not what you meant, but again I think adherence to guidelines is overruling common sense here. If an educator/football coach/janitor or whatever is caught abusing children, call the police. End of story!

Then you lose your job. And I will take this a step further.

You also lose the right to any of the resources at your disposal via the school system - including legal counsel. Let's say the perv who committed this crime accuses the witness of actually keeping watch for anyone coming. The perv knows he/she is doomed, but is more than willing to bring someone else along - even though it is not true. Sure, the one reporting the crime will probably be acquitted of any crimes. But it will be the responsibility of the individual to cover his/her lawyer fees and not the school system.

But let's say this person is wrongly convicted. I don't think there is any need to elaborate any further. I'm sure you get the idea.

Another disclaimer. This scenario was part of a case study for me (and other new teachers) more than thirty years ago.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top