Our Run game....whats really going on.

Utah

The Rookie
Joined
Jul 23, 2009
Messages
162
Reaction score
130
Points
43
I am sure there are alot of us football nuts out there that love diving into the details....so lets do that. With Tampa coming up, we need something to pass the time til kickoff.

I thought of putting breakdowns of plays on here but that is time consuming and I just finished doing that for 2 different high school teams so lets be picky and we can detail specific ones.

I have NFL Pro so find a play that bothered you and lets see what we can see. IF any one is game that is........I'm bored and Sunday is a long way away.
 
I'll start off with the 2nd qtr one first. the first play are you talking about the 4 yd carry that got called back at that time stamp?

This is a basic Pin and Pull. The first rule for the pullers is uncovered man goes between C and G. The TE blocks down to seal C-gap player while tackle picks up overhang LB and then the G/C picks up first opposite color jersey and seals him to where he is pushing. IF he comes upfield, take him that way. If he tries to wrong arm, then seal him down. The RB will follow his lead blockers and cut accordingly. Thats a simple description for what is happening.

On this particular play, we have a few issues. Our TEs are not the best blockers. Another aspect of our run plays is we are down lineman priority running team. That means we defeat the men with their hands in the dirt first with combo blocks. Four hands on Dlineman and 4 eyes on 2nd level player. Our problem this year has been we do not do a good job of combo blocking. Our Driver (blocker who resets the defensive lineman) sticks to him way to long and does not release in time to pick up the reading backer or safety who is coming down based on the down block. This in turn, more than I like, has our Driver cutting in front of our runner to pick up the 2nd level defender who has put himself in a good position to force the ball back in. Kills our runners choices. Elite linemen can do this...we're missing a couple of those guys at the moment.

On this play, Bates does not seal the End and allows the End to keep his shoulders square. In turn, Ben (Driver) ends up putting both hands on the End which pulls his shoulders and turns him which kills his chance to have a good angle on the safety over top. Thus, he scrapes over and gives Dieter a bad read. Dieter then tries to pull up into the gap that appears because Ben crosses his face to indicate a hole there. BRob's job is to follow the ass of his lead blocker. The problem here is Dieter should of gone out to the Corner and BRob follow him out. Not only that, but Bates, who I love and hate every game because of this, gets destroyed because he has bad feet. Thus, Dieter runs up causing everything to pile up (what the defense wants) and the free corner and the 'proper tech used' DE kill the play. The only thing BRob could of done different was bounce it outside, but his angle left him with a free corner staring at him and he chose to go up. Since Coleman was square to the line and making a great block, Dieter should of gone off his ass and taking out the corner and Brob would of had a bigger gain.

A reminder...defense reacts to what is happening on the field after their first couple of steps, which are quite fast mind you at this level. Strength, speed and technique can kill an offensive play quickly. Think Myles Garett or Parsons as examples.


I'll just edit and add that first play. This one we don't need to get into too much detail as its an ugly penalty. But I will tell you that BRob cuts based on the helmet of the LB on Bates. Think of the old drill you see coaches do with the bag and they drop it to one side of the other and the RB cuts off of that. Same thing here. The head of the LB is inside, so he sees leverage and cuts accordingly. The DE on Coleman does a great job of gaining separation from Coleman with locked arms and just sheds him as BRob comes around. Also, you see a good example of combo blocking by Cosmi and Wylie. They work well together more times than not.
 
Last edited:
I'll start off with the 2nd qtr one first. Are you talking about the 4 yd carry that got called back at that time stamp?

The second quarter play I'm referring to happens with 11:59 remaining in the second quarter.
 
Sorry, I fixed the question but I found what you were referring to from Pro Football Reference for the first play.
 
I am convinced one of the worst plays in football is the predictable 1st and 10 run up the gut for no gain, and a holding penalty.

On topic. Injuries. BRob has been slowed much of the year. We see from Quinn talking about JD5 and BRob for that matter - he does NOT disclose injuries. OL - its documented already. The other - defenses are likely keying on BRob to run. We don't use him in the passing game. When he is in, its a run up the gut, Jayden magic, or WR screen far more often than not it seems.
 
I am convinced one of the worst plays in football is the predictable 1st and 10 run up the gut for no gain, and a holding penalty.

On topic. Injuries. BRob has been slowed much of the year. We see from Quinn talking about JD5 and BRob for that matter - he does NOT disclose injuries. OL - its documented already. The other - defenses are likely keying on BRob to run. We don't use him in the passing game. When he is in, its a run up the gut, Jayden magic, or WR screen far more often than not it seems.
BRob has to be slowed by injuries as he is not the player that was there early in the season. He has always been iffy in recognizing which way to cut (many times runs into the back of his blockers or cuts into a tackle when he had a ton of room had he cut the other way), but when healthy can run people over and still get some yardage. Right now he isn't getting anywhere. Bad reads, slow cuts, no acceleration = no yardage. We need our "Gibbs" to go along with him!! He can be our Montgomery (almost anyway)!!
 
Sorry Spearfeather. The play with that time stamp ended up being a no play or 0 yards as it was a penalty. We were running an ISO and Bates wheel blocked the LB and killed the play. Let me know if I misunderstood which one you wanted.

As far as BRob being slowed or not the same guy. He had 4 explosives vs Atlanta (10+) He is fine for this time of year. The problem is, the RB takes the heat for when the Oline and TEs lose more than they win at point of contact. IF you are unable to displace a defender and allow progression to the 2nd level, then you have more bad runs than you want. Do we need to improve on our Oline....hell yeah, but that aint happening this year.
 
Last edited:
Sorry Spearfeather. The play with that time stamp ended up being a no play or 0 yards as it was a penalty. We were running an ISO and Bates wheel blocked the LB and killed the play. Let me know if I misunderstood which one you wanted.

Ok. So just to re-cap:


6:51
110WAS 4603Brian Robinson left tackle for no gain

" But I will tell you that BRob cuts based on the helmet of the LB on Bates. The DE on Coleman does a great job of gaining separation from Coleman with locked arms and just sheds him as BRob comes around. "

11:59110WAS 3606Brian Robinson left end for 1 yard

" The only thing BRob could of done different was bounce it outside, but his angle left him with a free corner staring at him and he chose to go up. Since Coleman was square to the line and making a great block, Dieter should of gone off his ass and taking out the corner and Brob would of had a bigger gain. "

So, on these two plays ... More of a bad offensive line ( TE ) play, and.great D-Line play, as opposed to bad Robinson play.

Is that correct ?
 
Correct. Our run blocking is just off at point of contact enough times to keep us frustrated and cause us to shift gears a bit on gameplan throughout the game.
 
BRob has to be slowed by injuries as he is not the player that was there early in the season. He has always been iffy in recognizing which way to cut (many times runs into the back of his blockers or cuts into a tackle when he had a ton of room had he cut the other way), but when healthy can run people over and still get some yardage. Right now he isn't getting anywhere. Bad reads, slow cuts, no acceleration = no yardage. We need our "Gibbs" to go along with him!! He can be our Montgomery (almost anyway)!!

Two things stand out for me. BRob is obviously not healthy. He is slow in making his reads and getting into the holes. CRod is healthier and it shows.

There's something to be said about not having Noah Brown as a Big Receiver who sustains his blocks.

I agree with you. We need our version of "Gibbs". I like Eckler but I do miss me some JD Mckissic.
 
Utah I’d be interested to get your take on something…

Seems to me that one thing Rodriguez does a little better than Robinson is the speed he cuts with right behind an engaged blocker. Or maybe it’s not the speed of the cut, but rather that he sells it a tick longer?


On a related note - Might be thinking of it all wrong, but it’s kind of fascinating (for me as a layman) to think about the leverage battles. As a back, do you run to the unleveraged side of a block, even though you know that’s what the defender is expecting? Do you juke/shimmy in that direction and then cut to the leveraged side - ie forcing the defender to sell out/lose their base to the unleveraged side and thereby giving your blocker an advantage? Easy to see the benefit of having a back that can make quick adjustments at speed…
 
So the easy answer I would give you is center of gravity and stride length. BRob is a big back and has great leverage strength in his legs. Its why he will fall forward more often than not. Its also why you see players attack his legs and chop him at his feet so he loses that advantage. CRod has some damn good power as well, but he does a great job of staying low and 'chopping' his feet while he reads where to go. Some will call it 'staying in the cylinder' with power and balance. One is more flashy or eye candy. One is more power and more sledgehammer like. Both guys are studs. They bring a little different aspect to a running play. The other note, which won't seem like much but is, BRob is 2 inches taller and I suspect his legs are longer to his body than CRods are to his. Angles, cuts and other leverage moments will look different. In the NFL, its speed and power that make difference in a RB and they are just different enough that it sparks debate on effective use.

As for the 2nd part. That is going to be an individuals experience and having a good connection with their blockers. Some backs have try to evade contact. Some backs want to plow through. Some backs are low to the ground in the trenches and some stand a little taller. As a coach, you try not to coach an athlete on being an athlete. You coach them on what the other 10 guys are doing and where your directing them to go. You get alot of coaches that try to micromanage a player at athletic moments and that causes them to think and then in turn, its looks ugly. Any given play needs guys to be at a certain spot in the first 3-5 steps and then you tell them....go be you. To circle around to your question, you practice as much as you can during indy time and group time to expose the player to as many situations as you can so they get a feel for what they would do in those moments. Then you pair them with the guys blocking for them and then the communication about what one wants or can do and the other adapts and then poetry happens.....or it looks ugly.
 
Sort of reminds me of the end of Larry Brown's career. All the sudden a quick drop off due to injuries. I hope I am wrong- Same type of runner.
 
I know the discussion of the struggle with our running attack has seemly fallen on the OL, but in their limited usage I see Chris Rodriguez and McNichols and even Eckler with his 1 attempt last week against the Cowboys do better then what we’ve been seeing in BRob…. I don’t blame the OL for the lack thereof the running game but more so BRob … he waits for a hole instead of making 1 or hitting the norrow window of the hole that is there even if for a brief second, runs with no authority or purpose and lately can’t step up and block on a blitzing LB or safety either….I so hope we get some facet of a running attack here in the playoffs outside of Daniels
 
and even Eckler with his 1 attempt last week against the Cowboys, do better then what we’ve been seeing in BRob

Decent hole opens up for him as soon as he takes that hand-off, with the added benefit of no D-lineman or linebacker lined up where that play is designed to go.

Maybe Utah can find time to take a look at that one.

27:1724WAS 4306Austin Ekeler right tackle for 5 yards
 
So, understand that Dallas treated Ekeler different than BRob. IF you go back and watch the way Dallas aligned in the various formations, when Austin was off set to Jayden, they would leave the opposite B-gap open. A defense will do this to provide some low hanging fruit for the offense and allow for the end player to contain and force him into the hole where a scraping LB can make the play. Also, they are in man coverage so that backer is generally lined up over top of him so its a foot race to the hole. Dallas wasn't focused on Ekeler's run ability and while he got a few yards off the play, they were more concerned what he could do in pass.

As for the play.....we do a nice fold block to stall the End so Ek could pick a hole quickly. IN this case, the End over played his read and opened up a lane for Ek to bounce outside and gain a bit more. The End had LB help on the inside and made his job more difficult by forcing a longer scrape. The same basic scenario for BRob when we were pinned back towards our goalline and he ripped off a 6 yd gain.

Defenses play BRob different. This game, BRob had a loaded box and trigger safeties to keep his explosive plays down. This particular game, we were not forcing zone reads at them and the speed of this Dline is just a bad match up for us.

Let me also add, defenses will be willing to set up 1v1 tackling vs Ekeler scheme wise. BRob, not so much. Just changes alignment and assignment for defenses.
 
Last edited:
The Achilles heel has been injuries and lack of depth.

Robinson is playing hurt. You don’t see that quick first step from him and he now goes down on first contact when that used to be his strength- yards after contact.

Then you add in the offensive line. After 17 weeks the starters are battered.

Biadasz has been in and out of the lineup with the ankle for weeks.

At tackle both Coleman and Wylie have missed games due to concussions that kept them out awhile.

Lucas came in at RT and played well but then went down and he is playing hurt.

Cosmi and Allegretti are the only linemen to play and consistently stay on the field for the team.

You also look at TE where Zack Ertz has been a key in the passing game along with Terry, but he is playing with an injured shoulder that may require offseason surgery.

Where is Sinnott to take on some responsibility for this team? He is a ghost.

What Washington is missing is the quick strike back like Gibbs or Barkley that can still find holes and make plays even when the OL isn’t opening big holes to run through.

I remember Barkley beating us when in NY where the OL was nowhere near as good as the one in Philly.

The other factor is depth on the OL. We don’t have young draft picks sitting on bench waiting their turn to play. Other than Lucas the other reserves are mostly vet minimum free agents like Deiter or guys like Trent Scott and Chris Paul that hang around at the back end of the 53 man roster each year.

Hopefully we will use another draft and FA cycle to upgrade these spots.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top