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NY Times: US, In Shift, Sees Marriage Act as Violation of Gay Rights

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the battle is coming.

the truth is in the open on just how lawless the Democrats and Obama really are.

- don't favor an outcome? why then screw the taxpayers and skip to another state!

- don't like a law? why then don't enforce it!

- don't like a judicial ruling? why then ignore it!

that's what these blood suckers are really all about. we are seeing Dem/Lib soft fascism in all its reified glory. these people are lawless, cynical...and worst of all....completely inept.
 
What does hurting Ax have to do with anything? that's your standard?

at least be honest and don't perpetuate the crap some are peddling. this is a political move with multiple dimensions: placate a natural constituency for Obama as he bumbles through his criminal Presidency; normalize homosexuality as just another lifestyle - with all the income transfer perks (as we will learn in the military soon enough).

And Ax is 100% correct - there is absolutley no basis for ruling out many of the relationships he listed given the "standard" in play. Afterall, how is Ax hurt by some character in CA sleeping with his beloved sheep? It's just luuuuuvvvvvvv.


Yes that’s my standard. If you believe in limited government as I do and not just a selective belief when you happen to disagree with what the government is doing, then you must insist on the government showing a compelling reason for restricting anyone’s rights. I simply do not believe that there is a reason to deny gay persons the right to marry someone of their own gender. Thus, my question to Ax, Elephant and now I address it to you. Can you tell me what the compelling interest the government has in restricting the right for gays to marry each other?

This continued focus on the slippery slope toward bestiality is so ridiculous I shouldn’t even dignify it with a response. I think it shows your desperation to show a justification for government involvement in a totally unrelated lifestyle that you happen to abhor. The real slippery slope is not bestiality but in Michelle Obama telling us what beasts we should eat.
 
So Ax, why don't you answer the question I asked Elephant. How does allowing gays to marry hurt you?
It hurts society. And, as much as those who oppose my way of thinking want to admit, I am part of that society.

And, their is no "right" to marry.

Now, a question for you.

If same sex marriage becomes a legal and acceptable lifestyle, then why shouldn't incest, or polygamy, since the choice to do so would also be made by consenting adults? What are their rights?
 
It hurts society. And, as much as those who oppose my way of thinking want to admit, I am part of that society.

And, their is no "right" to marry.

Now, a question for you.

If same sex marriage becomes a legal and acceptable lifestyle, then why shouldn't incest, or polygamy, since the choice to do so would also be made by consenting adults? What are their rights?

Because its illegal to marry a relative, marry more than one person, marry your dog, etc. for EVERYONE. This answer has already been posted. Its common sense, really.
 
I find it amusing that people are so willing to accept the comparison of beastiality, polygamy, etc. to homosexuality, but can't accept the comparison to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. That is the true comparison here.
 
I find it amusing that people are so willing to accept the comparison of beastiality, polygamy, etc. to homosexuality, but can't accept the comparison to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. That is the true comparison here.



One was about skin color. The other is about abnormal behavior. No comparision at all really
 
One was about skin color. The other is about abnormal behavior. No comparision at all really

They are both about discriminating against a group of people because they are different, actually. They are 100% comparable. More than beastiality to homosexuality, anyway.
 
Abnormal behavior to you. To you. Just like skin color that is different was once considered abnormal.

Just because something is abnormal to you doesn't make it wrong. You can choose to ignore them, not hang around them, whatever. But deny them marriage? How does that hurt you in any way, shape or form? There is no way, unless you bring religion into it, which has no place in a political discussion.
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Abnormal behavior to you. To you. Just like skin color that is different was once considered abnormal.

Just because something is abnormal to you doesn't make it wrong. You can choose to ignore them, not hang around them, whatever. But deny them marriage? How does that hurt you in any way, shape or form? There is no way, unless you bring religion into it, which has no place in a political discussion.
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This is about as clear as it can be presented - if you can't see it from this post, then you will never see it.
 
Abnormal behavior to you. To you. Just like skin color that is different was once considered abnormal.

Just because something is abnormal to you doesn't make it wrong. You can choose to ignore them, not hang around them, whatever. But deny them marriage? How does that hurt you in any way, shape or form? There is no way, unless you bring religion into it, which has no place in a political discussion.
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You can't just dismiss religion bcause it's a so called "political discussion". It's the gays that made this into a religious discussion to begin with by explicitely using the term "marriage". Personally, I don't care if they have civil unions or some other type of legal arraignment for legal reasons. But "marriage, as El has been trying to say, has religious implications. The Romans ussed to have some type of gay "marriage as well, until they adopted Christianity, then it was outlawed.

None of the four major religions, until recently, recognizes gay "marriage". Perhaps if the gays had considered the feelings of the large majority of religious folks (Like gays want their feelings considered) in the country before going on their little crusade, they wouldn't be in this spot
 
They are both about discriminating against a group of people because they are different, actually. They are 100% comparable. More than beastiality to homosexuality, anyway.

If you want to comapare civil rights to gay rights, then the analogy of gay behavior to beastiality is comparible as well
 
It hurts society. And, as much as those who oppose my way of thinking want to admit, I am part of that society.

And, their is no "right" to marry.

Now, a question for you.

If same sex marriage becomes a legal and acceptable lifestyle, then why shouldn't incest, or polygamy, since the choice to do so would also be made by consenting adults? What are their rights?

How does it hurt society? Please explain.

It seems to me that allowing gays to legally commit to a single person, to allow them a orderly way to distribute property in the event the relationship is ended, to ensure parental rights, i.e. all the automatic benefits those of us that commit to marriage is actually good for society.

So since you are part of society, you have the right to impose your values on the rest of us? I suppose that if you opposed blacks they should be forced to ride in the back of the bus? If you opposed the right of women to vote, they should be denied the right of women to vote because after all you oppose it and you “are part of society.” Be careful what you wish for because if you want to deny rights to someone simply because you disagree with their lifestyle, even when it doesn’t hurt you, then that same argument can be used to deny you your rights just because “society” doesn’t like your lifestyle. There’s no middle ground here. You either stand for individual rights or you are a collectivist. Choose carefully.

Again you are going back to a slippery slope argument, although thank god you seem to have dropped your obsession with beastiality. I actually dealt with polygamy already. But I will do so again.

In nature many species engage in polygamy. Only the biggest and strongest males get to reproduce. This ensures that those characteristics are passed down ensuring the survival of the species. Polygamy in the animal world also tends to occur in species where the male is not involved in child rearing. Humans evolved differently. Physically we are a relatively weak creature, slow and not very strong. Our survival in nature depended on intelligence and cooperation within the group.

Newborns have a relatively large brain compared to their body and their bodies are virtually helpless. That’s because during gestation, most of biological activity is dedicated to brain development. So it takes many years for children to develop physically and survive on their own. So in humans it is normal for the children of multiple pregnancies to still be dependent upon their parents. You don’t really see this in the animal world. One off spring is typically fully independent before another arrives.

Because of this, both parents are needed to raise children and survival of humans depended upon cooperation within a group. Both of these created a situation where monogamy help the survival of the species because it created an incentive for males to stick around.

Now consider a tribe that consisted of one dominate male and many females. That tribe would not survive because without the cooperation of other males, they couldn’t successful hunt the larger and faster game they depended on.

So that’s how we got to where we are today. But does that still apply today or would polygamy be workable in today’s society. If you have paid attention to some of the polygamist Mormon outliner societies, they drive away young competing males and older females. Done on a large scale, it would result in a large number of young males without mates in stable relationships. This is not good for society as we have seen already even without polygamy. So society has a compelling interest in not providing the benefits of marriage to such relationship.

In the case of incest, there is the presumption that there may be children and reproduction between close relatives increases the chance of passing on genetic deceases. Thus again, society has a compelling interest in not providing marriage benefits to such relationships.

On the other hand, since gays exist because they are wired differently (or as you said abnormal), it is societies interest to encourage gays to engage in stable, committed relationships. Heterosexual males who are in committed, stable relationships are healthier, happier and more productive than single males who are not in a committed relationship. I would suspect that the same is true for gay males.
 
Because its illegal to marry a relative, marry more than one person, marry your dog, etc. for EVERYONE. This answer has already been posted. Its common sense, really.
Same sex marriage used to be illegal for EVERYONE too. That's my point. If that law can be challenged and changed, then why not the others?
I find it amusing that people are so willing to accept the comparison of beastiality, polygamy, etc. to homosexuality, but can't accept the comparison to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s. That is the true comparison here.
First off, you are the one "comparing" one to the other. I say each one is completely different from the other. But that, if one is allowed, any one of them, then the same arguments used to justify that one, would HAVE to be used to justify the others. I don't see any way around that.
They are both about discriminating against a group of people because they are different, actually. They are 100% comparable. More than beastiality to homosexuality, anyway.
Wrong. Someone who is, or maybe thinks they are, gay, can choose, with no more than a thought, to not act upon it. Apparently, due to the ones who start out in a heterosexual marriage, only to later abandon it for a homosexual relationship, it's damn likely some do choose to not act upon it, ever.

Explain to me how a black/white/brown person can, using only the power of thought, change the color of their skin.

0% comparable.
 
Same sex marriage used to be illegal for EVERYONE too. That's my point. If that law can be challenged and changed, then why not the others?

Because homosexuality is biological, the other things are not.

Wrong. Someone who is, or maybe thinks they are, gay, can choose, with no more than a thought, to not act upon it. Apparently, due to the ones who start out in a heterosexual marriage, only to later abandon it for a homosexual relationship, it's damn likely some do choose to not act upon it, ever.

False. Its not a choice. I mean, maybe YOU can choose to be attracted to males, but I certainly cannot. I'm hard-wired to chase ladies. But whatever floats your boat - I'm all for your right to marry a dude if you choose to, Ax. ;)

Explain to me how a black/white/brown person can, using only the power of thought, change the color of their skin.

0% comparable.

Actually, they are 100% comparable, since skin color is also biological. Neither can be changed (although with gene manipulation they're messing around with these days, who knows?), and both were at one point thought of as "defects," and used to discriminate against the people who had them. They couldn't be more comparable.
 
I think I see the problem here - many of you still think of homosexuality as a choice. Sorry to say, you are completely wrong. The proof is in your own heterosexuality. I have no choice, I am attracted to women; I couldn't just some day choose to be into Denzel Washington, I just couldn't. Logically, it makes sense that the opposite is also true, since there are no 100%'s in nature.
 
Same sex marriage used to be illegal for EVERYONE too. That's my point. If that law can be challenged and changed, then why not the others?

I suppose they could if there was a mass upraising in support for bestiality and they could get it through the legislature and signed by the executive branch. Wake me up if that happens and I will lead the good fight against it. But that could only happen via the legislative process since they couldn’t use the courts to override the legislative restrictions since the 14th amendment is limited to “persons” and it outlaws unequal treatment under the law. The only way I could them using the courts would be through a right to privacy (i.e. via Roe verses Wade which was a bad legal opinion anyway.) Even so, the compelling state interest would trump the right to privacy.

The civil rights comparison is very applicable here. Unequal treatment of blacks was justified based upon dubious science, irrational fear or because that was the way it always had been. In reality, individuals wanted the heavy handed force of the government to support their personal bigotry. There was in fact no compelling interest in the government forcing blacks to drink from a separate foundation or to ride in the back of the bus but it was codified in the law and supported by many people using some of the exact same arguments you have heard in this thread.

One thing this thread has proved is that there are a lot of people who really like a nanny state, collectivist government when that government supports their own beliefs. Lot of faux conservatives running around here. But those same arguments can be used to interfere with your rights later on. Maybe putting away your prejudices and developing some intellectual consistency might be a good thing.
 
everything is a choice..its called free will. you're just so stuck on believing that you are wired a certain way that you refuse to see anything else.

So you chose to be your height? You chose your hair & eye color? You chose your metabolism? All genetics, the same as your sexuality. Some things are not a choice - claiming everything is free will couldn't be more wrong.

And yes, I am "wired a certain way" - heterosexually. Are you saying you aren't wired that way? Its a conscious choice for you? So when you go into a bar, you are attracted to everyone in there, you just choose to go for the women?
 
http://www.dvstudios.com/ccn/Questions_Answers.pdf

Of course, those of you who support Gay Marriage will suggest the info offered by the Family Research Council is false, so it is probably useless anyway.

Alaskan, this is not about me, but I will answer your question. How does gay marriage hurt me? It erodes the fabric of my beliefs by breaking down the traditional values I believe, redefining traditions that have been in place for all of mankind. (Lanky, I believe I have addressed your challenge regarding the history of homosexual marriage so please don't suggest it is part of the norm throughout history. It is not!)It is an attack against what I hold dear. I am not Catholic so I do not believe Marriage is a Sacrament, but it is an act where God is present. I do not hold true that God intended for same sex "marriages". I do, however, believe God gave us free will to allow us to do as we wish. Homosexuals have the choice/right/desire/ or whatever you want to call it to be together, but no right under the Constitution to marry. I will not judge their behavior that is between them and God. If they want Civil Unions, so be it. But marriage is sacred, so it harms my beliefs Alaskan!

Again, this is not about denying anyone the opportunity to be together enjoying the same benefits anyone else enjoys. It is about a redefining tradition. This is not an issue protected by the equal rights clause in the 14th Amendment.
 
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I think I see the problem here - many of you still think of homosexuality as a choice. Sorry to say, you are completely wrong. The proof is in your own heterosexuality. I have no choice, I am attracted to women; I couldn't just some day choose to be into Denzel Washington, I just couldn't. Logically, it makes sense that the opposite is also true, since there are no 100%'s in nature.

But you don't have to go tail chasing. On the other hand, you can no more help that you are white than I can. Good try though
 
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