McCloughan's draft plan

No - he didn't say those things. He said he wouldn't rule out taking a QB and that if the opportunity is there, he always considers trading down. But he did say 'none of these QBs are my guys'. I think he's making it clear he has no sentimentality committed to any of them, and he may not believe any of the 3 are long-term Redskins.
 
Yes, you just said exactly what I did but said he didn't say what I did.
 
Not wasting my time anymore.
 
Well, ok. But we did say the same thing.

I said pick mariota..you said take a qb. I said trade down...you said trade down. I was originally just making light of a GM that has the world guessing.
 
RG will be gone after this year. Regardless of why he is where he is, he's too far behind the curve and it isn't reasonable that he'll have a remarkable turn around. He'd have to have an excellent year, not just show improvement to justify keeping him. He will have to cement himself as the long term solution to stay. Does anyone really, deep down in side, think that is remotely possible. We'd all love him to do that. It's the best possible outcome, but realistically, the odds are stacked heavily against it. The best possible outcome never seems to be our outcome.
 
All he'd have to do is return to 2012 form to do what you said. So, yes, I think it's possible.
 
RG will be gone after this year. Regardless of why he is where he is, he's too far behind the curve and it isn't reasonable that he'll have a remarkable turn around. He'd have to have an excellent year, not just show improvement to justify keeping him. He will have to cement himself as the long term solution to stay. Does anyone really, deep down in side, think that is remotely possible. We'd all love him to do that. It's the best possible outcome, but realistically, the odds are stacked heavily against it. The best possible outcome never seems to be our outcome.

steve...you limit the set of factors that influence the outcome to one: RGIII. the reality is that multiple factors are in play.....

- RGIII's native physical skills

- RGIII's commitment/preparation

- RGIII's mental habits (reading, anticipating)

- the play of the offensive line, running backs (blocking) and receivers

- the ability/skill/commitment of coaches to work/improve above

- the quality of playcalls by the coaching staff

- the quality of strategy generated by the coaching staff for a game

- the quality of adjustments made by the coaching staff during a game

- focus for any given game (the Skins, in particular, have demonstrated a remarkably consistent lack of focus game after game, year after after year)

- many other factors

we know all of the above were suspect in previous seasons.

to name just a few. in short....the results of RGIII's play (or any other QB) are not under the sole control of the QB. that's why the sometimes mindless pursuit of simple stats misses rising to the stature of root cause analysis. too often...the analysis over-simplifies what is a complex set of interacting factors - this is inherent in the math of the situation. outcome = fnc(number of players, possible decisions by each player for each play (e.g., receiver breaks and timing, blocker positioning in space relative to time and rusher, blocker shoulder position relative to rusher, blocker separation (arm length) from rusher, etc., etc.). if we're going to get down to brass tacks...there's a huge number of variables per individual, per play, per game. it's inherent in the number of players involved, the variety of plays that can be called, the variety of defenses that can be run on any given snap, etc.). we all know intuitively better and worse....kinda like what many of us have been observing for o-line play the last several seasons. but that doesn't really capture the full set of interactions that is occurring on the field.

if RGIII fails.....it will certainly be his responsibility to bear....but that outcome will be the product of the factors described above. separating out the major from minor factors is the challenge. that has been exceedingly difficult in the past with this team because so much was going wrong across the board - all the way to coaching decisions that led to damaging a player physically when he should have been seated rather than risk serious injury.

one way of overcoming the complexity is to contrast performance for different QBs - HOLDING EVERYTHING ELSE CONSTANT. that's what many are implicitly doing when they compare, say, Griffin with McCoy. whether everything else is truly constant, of course, is open to question.

RGIII has to create his own fortune in large measure - I agree with that. but the players and coaches have to want to succeed as well and make the 1000% commitment to do so. not so sure that is the case with this HC.
 
RGIII has to create his own fortune in large measure - I agree with that. but the players and coaches have to want to succeed as well and make the 1000% commitment to do so. not so sure that is the case with this HC.

That's ... puzzling.

One can certainly make the case we can't be sure of anything---one day, the sun won't rise in the East. But as it pertains to Jay Gruden, the notion that he "doesn't want to succeed," or isn't giving his best effort at achieving that goal, be it in terms of his handling of the quarterback situation or any other, makes absolutely no sense.

His own best interests are served by winning. Wouldn't someone have to be clinically insane to willfully undermine that aim? Is that what you're suggesting?


 
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That's ... puzzling.

One can certainly make the case we can't be sure of anything---one day, the sun won't rise in the East. But as it pertains to Jay Gruden, the notion that he "doesn't want to succeed," or isn't giving his best effort at achieving that goal, be it in terms of his handling of the quarterback situation or any other, makes absolutely no sense. His own best interests are served by winning.

Wouldn't someone have to be clinically insane to willfully undermine that aim? Is that what you're suggesting?


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1) I qualified it as "not so sure."

2) all a matter of degree. stating someone wants to win isn't the same thing as the plan and methods for going about achieving that end. for example, there have been repeated reports in the press that Gruden decided early on that Griffin had fundamental issues and that he wanted a different QB. you believe this coach did everything possible to make Griffin a success? or do you keep to the meme that this coach was overwhelmed his first year by the magnitude of the challenge and was occupied primarily by figuring up from down, dealing with the press, orchestrating logistics, etc., etc? winning can also very well be the product of OJT.

3) "winning" only has relevance in an assumed timeframe. you are implicitly assuming that for a HC that always translates to "now". I disagree. especially in a situation like DC where the priority may be more about cleaning house and improving incrementally. in short - winning was only one variable among many for a coach who wasn't ready for the challenge.

not saying Jay Gruden won't succeed. saying he bears heavy responsibility for what happened last season. he was not equal to the challenges of the HC position - that was painfully obvious. from what I have seen in small media snippets...he has already gotten smarter on how he is conducting himself. let's hope other hard learned lessons take and influence behavior & decisions.

so, no...the hyperbole of clinical insanity doesn't apply here or in real life.
 
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There's also the possibility that Gruden very badly wants to win, but doesn't think Griffin is the guy who can get it done for him. Therefore, in his mind, better to make Griffin appear incapable or ineffective in order to facilitate moving on and finding a guy better suited to Gruden's needs.

I think we can all agree Gruden and Griffin are, to some extent, tied together, fate-wise; but I have seen smarter men than Gruden fall prey to mental mind games we all play with ourselves.
 
1) I qualified it as "not so sure."
Which means you aren't sure. And that you allow for the possibility he "doesn't want to succeed" and isn't giving 1000% toward that goal. Which makes zero sense.

For what it's worth, I am sure he does, and is. 100%. For the same reasons stated above.

2) all a matter of degree. stating someone wants to win isn't the same thing as the plan and methods for going about achieving that end. for example, there have been repeated reports in the press that Gruden decided early on that Griffin had fundamental issues and that he wanted a different QB. you believe this coach did everything possible to make Griffin a success? or do you keep to the meme that this coach was overwhelmed his first year by the magnitude of the challenge and was occupied primarily by figuring up from down, dealing with the press, orchestrating logistics, etc., etc? winning can also very well be the product of OJT.
I figure that Jay absolutely did everything possible to make Griffin a success. There were also repeated reports in the press not only that 1) he had, but 2) that those fundamental issues were,in fact, fundamental issues.

Not sure what the rest of that means. Yes, Jay was a rookie head coach, dealing with all the relevant inherent challenges. In this instance for a franchise that hasn't sniffed stability or success in a quarter century.

Hopefully, he'll get better at his job with the experience. I'm sure he'd say the same.

3) "winning" only has relevance in an assumed timeframe. you are implicitly assuming that for a HC that always translates to "now". I disagree. especially in a situation like DC where the priority may be more about cleaning house and improving incrementally. in short - winning was only one variable among many for a coach who wasn't ready for the challenge.

not saying Jay Gruden won't succeed. saying he bears heavy responsibility for what happened last season. he was not equal to the challenges of the HC position - that was painfully obvious. from what I have seen in small media snippets...he has already gotten smarter on how he is conducting himself. let's hope other hard learned lessons take and influence behavior & decisions.
I'm saying that your suggestion Jay Gruden may not "want to succeed" or wasn't "giving 1000%" suggests you believe he may have had motives other than success. And that that makes absolutely no sense.

And of course he "bears heavy responsibility" for the team's performance last hear. He's the head coach. But the blanket assertion that he was not "ready for the challenge" is pure speculation. It's entirely possible no rookie head coach could have played the hand he was dealt any better. Or that someone might have even done worse. The team didn't win, that's true; for a whole host of reasons---one of which has to be the rookie head coach's performance.

But yes, again, he will hopefully get better. You'd hope that for any rookie head coach.

so, no...the hyperbole of clinical insanity doesn't apply here or in real life.
Call it what you want. The suggestion he "doesn't want to succeed" or isn't "giving 1000%" is not only unsupported or unsupportable, it flies in the face of common sense.
 
What I see is a lot of sentimentality and wishing being put forward in place of logic and common sense. People fall in love with players at some level and have trouble separating desire and hope from reality. That becomes the prism through which 'the facts' are viewed. I've been a victim of that mentality but my eyes are wide open these days.
 
There's also the possibility that Gruden very badly wants to win, but doesn't think Griffin is the guy who can get it done for him. Therefore, in his mind, better to make Griffin appear incapable or ineffective in order to facilitate moving on and finding a guy better suited to Gruden's needs.

I think we can all agree Gruden and Griffin are, to some extent, tied together, fate-wise; but I have seen smarter men than Gruden fall prey to mental mind games we all play with ourselves.
Just cannot agree. Team building goes on in the offseason. During the season, Head Coaches have one clear focus:

You play to win the game.

The notion that any head coach would intentionally make a player look bad, and lose not only games but potentially his locker room in the process, to me is an extraordinary claim ... one that should require extraordinary evidence.
 
Your argument to my contention is that he is intentionally doing it.

I'm not ready to make THAT claim.
 
Your argument to my contention is that he is intentionally doing it.

I'm not ready to make THAT claim.
Well that's good. :)

That does leave the possibility open you think he subconsciously did so though, right? That he somehow crafted game plans, or called plays not designed to max out on the ability of his starting QB, or some other less-than-optimal approach, thereby lessening his chances of winning?

If you're right, then yes. He needs to be fired.

And possibly committed.
 
the beauty of America! we are free to disagree!

1) now you are twisting the argument....from winning to success. two different things.

2) he did everything, you are asking, is to be accepted on faith. that is an easy belief to defeat - doing everything doesn't include belittling your QB publicly. anyone who has been in a leadership position knows that is a leadership 101 "don't do".

right...it flies in the face of everything except results. you know...the same thing everyone plays "j'accuse" with Griffin. it has been in the media for months now, repeating a theme, that Gruden did not want Griffin as his QB. if not...why play him at all? why anoint him the starter before training camp has even begun? either you go with what you think are the best options for winning - or there are other motives, intentions, factors in play.
 
While I'd like to give gruden the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intentionally make Robert look bad; it's not looking good in his favor.

He installed an offense that was not tailored to any of the quarterbacks we have yet wouldn't play to Roberts strengths.

His continually calling Robert out during press conferences.

The rumors you hear of how he didn't like Robert, the rolling of the eyes, etc. None of those things scream "good coach who is here for you"

The playing mccoy over Griffin even though mccoy had a injured neck.

All of these things make it appear that he really just doesn't like Robert. The problem with that is this isn't a popularity contest. He was hired as a qb guru and brought in to (let's be honest) get Robert back on track and make him the qb of the future. Well, now we have these 2 bickering and a qb who now isn't even on social media yet being talked about every day because of what the coach is saying.
 

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