Martin Mayhew Named GM

[romberjo]

That's great to hear.

Marty Hurney coming in as GM/talent evaluator while Kyle Smith leaves and we take another step closer to becoming the respectable but mostly mediocre Washington Panthers: bad.

Martin Mayhew as talent evaluator and Marty Hurney as a non-evil Bruce Allen business guy: completely fine.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I like the bit from Finlay that Rivera, Hurney, and Mayhew are all on the same page. That is always the most important thing with a head coach and GM. Of course it's easy to say they are on the same page the first day on the job before any signings have happened or any drafts have taken place. So I hope this stays the case.

As for Snyder, unfortunately as long as he is owner, he will be involved. Especially with front office hires. The only thing I will say about that is that as long as it works, I don't care if he's involved or not. We know his track record is dreadful, but if this is the right move and works out, I don't care how much or how little he was involved.

 

[Hollywood]

No one has pointed out what happened with Haskins. He went to school with Snyder’s son. Rivera was the one who made the call to cut him. And also, a couple years back in Carolina, Martin Mayhew interviewed for the general manager job that was essentially kept by Marty Hurney. Rivera has control of this football team and it’s the best decision the Dan Snyder has ever made as owner of the Washington Redskins. I promise you that.

 

[Hollywood]

That's great to hear.

Marty Hurney coming in as GM/talent evaluator while Kyle Smith leaves and we take another step closer to becoming the respectable but mostly mediocre Washington Panthers: bad.

Martin Mayhew as talent evaluator and Marty Hurney as a non-evil Bruce Allen business guy: completely fine.

Mostly mediocre? Three division titles and a trip to the Super Bowl? You make me laugh.

 

[Bulldog]

I would think the recent examples of Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan here are some evidence that you look at the individual and not necessarily the organization when evaluating candidates.

In the case of the front office I can point to a number of people from New England or Seattle that have been touted as 'great' GM or VP hires and they fall flat on their faces.

Just because a team won a Super Bowl doesn't mean everyone on the roster and in the front office is a shining diamond.

Here is my read on Detroit:

Mayhew came to the GM job after Mat Millen inextricably decided to draft WR in Round 1 of THREE consecutive drafts. Charles Rogers was a bust. Roy Williams was a talented player but had personal issues. Those moves in the draft left the Lions without productive players at other positions to build with. In a way it was like us giving up three #1 picks for Griffin and sitting there in 2014 with no draft picks and no developing core.

To his credit Mayhew had some good drafts. It's easy to withhold credit to a GM for drafting the 'obvious' player in Round 1 but that only seems so in retrospect. Here during and immediately after the draft Ron Rivera was criticized by NFL media and some former NFL players on studio shows for passing on Tua and taking a non-quarterback at #2.

My own feeling is 5 years from now everyone will say in the rear view mirror that Rivera made the obvious choice and only an idiot would have drafted someone else.

Mayhew took Suh over McCoy. Not everyone thought that was the right choice. Stafford was the right and perhaps more obvious pick.

He was able to trade Roy Williams to Dallas for #1, #3 and #6 draft choices in a market where the NFL knew he had to sell on the player.

I am not going to go through all of the picks but guys like Louis Delmas, Darius Slay were excellent selections and some others didn't turn out due to career ending injuries which no one can predict.

Every GM has the good drafts but also the poor ones. Bobby Beathard had an all-time great draft in 1981 that helped turn this franchise around.

But we also had some lean drafts thereafter where we were able to land perhaps one player that impacted the roster long-term in a 12 round draft.

And there was that nagging problem Beathard seemed to have in the second round where we almost continuously selected players that didn't help us. From Walter Murray to Tory Nixon to Brian Davis we whiffed on a number of them.

The other factor to me is the organization. The Ford family is notoriously cheap and they both refused to resign good players to second contracts as well as refusing to spend any significant dollars in free agency.

Going back to the merger in 1970 who has really been an enduring success in Detroit? This team hasn't won a title since 1957.

If you look at the Fords, Bidwills, Mike Brown, etc. you see some family owned teams still around the NFL that continue to try and get it done on the cheap historically and that has been one of the problems.

It is instructive that after Mayhew left the organization Detroit inexplicably fired Jim Caldwell after he posted winning seasons and playoff berths and then suffered a down season.

The Fords went with Rod Marinelli and a couple of years later the team was 0-16.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

There *is* a direct Mayhew <---> Rivera connection; they share the same agent. Rivera is putting in "his guys." I have a variety of problems with this offseason's moves:
1) I am not wowed by Hurney's resume.
2) I am not wowed by Mayhew's resume.
Related to the above: I believe in looking at performance, not connections, as the primary indicator on whether you hire someone. Connections should factor in AFTER performance.
3) Kyle Smith, I am impressed. Some would say that there are rumors of impertinence on his part, and if that's true, those are things you talk to him about. He was greatly involved in our last 2 drafts, by all reports, including some reports that he was a *loud* vocal critic of getting Haskins with that first round pick. He thought we over-reached, and we were better off with someone off of his board (you know, the one that his JOB dictates he makes, and then was summarily ignored). I give him KUDOS for performance on the last two years.

That is just not a guy, based on the clear observables, you want to lose. Now, if he does leave, he will likely take guys he has worked closely with in our scouting department that he knows are valuable. They will be gone. Who will get the opportunity to replace them?

The Marties will. Going back to point (1) and (2), I think we will get less skilled people in place. For me, this looks like a net negative, and it could be a big step back after looking VERY promising for the first time in a while. NOT because we made it to the playoffs last year (that was icing). Rather, because we were finding people like Kam Curl and other contributors. Montez Sweat was apparently taken in large part because of Kyle Smith complaining about Haskins (so one of the main rumors goes anyway). I think we will miss having a vocal, skilled voice in the room. That is something WFT in particular, with the cultural problems, actually NEEDS. Now, Rivera has essentially walked him out the door.

Here is another MAJOR problem I have. I don't like making outside hires unnecessarily, unless there is a good plan to leave openings for my inside guys. Promoting from within is STRONG; it sends good messages to people. Work hard, do recognizably good work, get rewarded. The opposite is true when you skip people or don't give them a good path. YES, they gave him a promotion last year. I didn't think they needed to give him the GM role this year, no. A conversation on the PATH to the GM role, though, probably would have kept him here. Instead, two hires from the outside are made, with all signs that they will be in the chain above him, after he had a direct line to the coach and draft process last year. It would feel like a demotion at best.

To me, BIG mistake. At least, that is my hot take.

 

[Boone]

The problem is - we know what we know. But we decidedly don't know what we don't know. Saying 'hiring inside talent is good, it reflects strength, etc...' is fine when you don't know what you don't know. What we know is that Kyle Smith has had some good drafts with value found at picks we aren't historically good at finding value with. There were also a bunch of failed, bad picks that Smith proponents don't seem as likely to mention. Sure - Smith reportedly railed against the Haskins pick, as well he should have. But he also picked some guys that were disasters. The Guice pick alone, especially given that him being a mental midget and immature moron apparently were well known attributes in college, would be a big negative for any personnel exec. As many have noted though, all personel people have hits and misses. So those misses don't taint an overall positive record for Kyle, but they do argue he may not qualify as an elite draft guy.

None of us know Smith. Not even a little. Maybe he's simply not a Rivera guy. I think we've all heard the rumblings that HE is the source of leaks coming out of the front office since Rivera took over. If that one little tidbit is true, he deserves to be out based on that alone.

We just don't know what Smith is about and how he's operated since Rivera came to town. I don't think Rivera has a documented history of being spiteful, being averse to giving folks a chance, or that he's difficult to get along with or treats people unfairly. And I think if he did have those kind of negative qualities, we'd have heard about them by now. So that begs the question, if there is any kind of negative vibe between Smith and Rivera, where is that originating from?

 

[Bulldog]

While the trend has largely been to go younger with head coaching candidates, many of the GMs behind these coaches are long time league veterans as players or scouts/personnel evaluators.

Sean McVay has Les Snead working the draft. Kyle Shanahan was hired by Jon Lynch, etc.

Again, this is only a guess but Ron Rivera may very well have thought Kyle Smith has genuine talent but in addition to the draft needed to add the ability to make trades, sign free agents and oversee the interplay of the cap with roster composition. Perhaps Smith being only 36 was just starting to get involved with these other aspects of the job and Ron felt he needed a couple of years to learn and grow into the role.

Perhaps Smith saw McVay and other younger hires here get ahead at warp speed and he thought he was ready to run an organization from top to bottom right now based on his more limited experience.

Ron Rivera had to fight for a lot of years to get a HC job in the NFL and that was after being on Andy Reid's staff in Philadelphia for a lot of winning.

In the end maybe Rivera thought Smith was arrogant and had gotten ahead of himself.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

We just don't know what Smith is about and how he's operated since Rivera came to town. I don't think Rivera has a documented history of being spiteful, being averse to giving folks a chance, or that he's difficult to get along with or treats people unfairly. And I think if he did have those kind of negative qualities, we'd have heard about them by now. So that begs the question, if there is any kind of negative vibe between Smith and Rivera, where is that originating from?

Agree with your quote, a lot of it is conjecture. However, I have to say, there is a big pattern of favoring connections with RIvera. It's pretty well documented at this point. Even Scott Turner, who seems a bit inexperienced to me and again has not really proven a lot with past opportunities, has a connection through his Dad to Ron (Ron was on the SD staff with Norv as HC I believe). There are some rumors that Kyle does not want to give up draft picks and spend big $$, but apparently that is on Ron's radar for this year, to do one or both. I can kind of believe it; again, I think Ron has proven to value his past connections a bit too much in my opinion.

I think someone mentioned Guice as connected to Smith? Let's be clear and honest here, maybe you forgot, but Guice was a H-U-G-E McLoughan guy. I mean, ridiculously so. Kyle gets a lot of the last 2 years, and in those past 2 years the WFT has done well. Keep in mind, the Rams are reported to be interested in Kyle, and they have McVay who has some awareness of the "behind the curtain" stuff here. That is not likely to be an accident, McVay and the Rams aren't randomly pilfering here.

Anyway, when I read the observables, this is how it looks. As I've said elsewhere, it could all work out, but from what I'm seeing, this is not the best path. We were on a good path, and this is likely to have a chain reaction that could alter our approach more than you think; and judging by the pickups in late rounds the last two years, that is a mistake. That kind of success is NOT a given, and should not be overlooked. Other teams have taken notice, and among them are some pretty successful ones.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

By the way, lest anyone think I'm being blinded, it is important to note that even Kyle has a Ron connection: AJ Smith is Kyle's father, and I think there is an SD connection there. AJ Smith as GM when Ron was there. However, something happened last year; going into last year, there was a LOT of positivity from both Kyle and Ron. Through the beginning of the year, there was still a lot of it. At the end of the year and in the offseason, the tone has changed. That gives some credence to the rumor about there being a significant difference of opinion on the direction.

Also, I did consider Kyle is a bit young, and was recently promoted. That's fine. Good leadership finds ways to retain skilled employees. Do I *know* how much Kyle matters? No. Other organizations seem to think he does. From some observables, I do too with what I do know (there are reports of how he gathers data into a scored format, typical for his role, but the reports indicate it has been well received in the last couple of offseasons).

There are definitely also reports that suggest Kyle is simply ambitious and a bit young (without executive experience) for Ron's taste. Having seen that play out poorly in other organizations, I am a bit concerned, but at least I do understand the position. It just might end poorly. I hope they can keep other people intact who may have mattered too, within the scouting organization, to limit change.

 

[Boone]

Not promoting him a 2nd time in a year doesn't constitute forcing the guy out. I have no doubt if he wants to continue in his current role he will be embraced to do that. If he leaves, it will be because he's got his own nose out of joint. We all know there are two ways to go when one is disappointed at not getting elevated. You can either leave and look for opportunity elsewhere (either by stomping your feet and storming out, or doing it professionally), or you can double down and show your determination to do your job better than anyone thought you could and earn a future opportunity. No idea which way it will go.

As for Rivera favoring connections, as others have pointed out, that's something almost all NFL coaches and GMs do. And if Smith leaves, you know who it will be that hires him? People he has past connections with. That's how the NFL works.

 

[SilentThreat]

Agree with your quote, a lot of it is conjecture. However, I have to say, there is a big pattern of favoring connections with RIvera. It's pretty well documented at this point. Even Scott Turner, who seems a bit inexperienced to me and again has not really proven a lot with past opportunities, has a connection through his Dad to Ron (Ron was on the SD staff with Norv as HC I believe). There are some rumors that Kyle does not want to give up draft picks and spend big $$, but apparently that is on Ron's radar for this year, to do one or both. I can kind of believe it; again, I think Ron has proven to value his past connections a bit too much in my opinion.

I think someone mentioned Guice as connected to Smith? Let's be clear and honest here, maybe you forgot, but Guice was a H-U-G-E McLoughan guy. I mean, ridiculously so. Kyle gets a lot of the last 2 years, and in those past 2 years the WFT has done well. Keep in mind, the Rams are reported to be interested in Kyle, and they have McVay who has some awareness of the "behind the curtain" stuff here. That is not likely to be an accident, McVay and the Rams aren't randomly pilfering here.

Anyway, when I read the observables, this is how it looks. As I've said elsewhere, it could all work out, but from what I'm seeing, this is not the best path. We were on a good path, and this is likely to have a chain reaction that could alter our approach more than you think; and judging by the pickups in late rounds the last two years, that is a mistake. That kind of success is NOT a given, and should not be overlooked. Other teams have taken notice, and among them are some pretty successful ones.

I dont think we were on a path... more a feeling out process.

I also have no idea what happened between Smith and Rivera, but I have a hard time seeing Rivera cast aside an asset in favor of a 'connection' simply because it's one of his buddies. As you stated in your next post, something clearly happened. That could have been a bad interaction, it could have been Smith stomping his feet and complaining. At the end of the day Rivera did not think Smith was the best man for the job at this time, and chose to look elsewhere.

We all are reading tealeaves and speculating, and if Rivera has shown us anything, we have no actual clue what the final plan is. My assumption as this is developing, is that Rivera likes Smith and his ability to evaluate personnel. He saw a 36 year old, very talented evaluator, who has ONLY done player evaluation, and wanted to hold him over from the last regime (which is clearly an endorsement in itself). He worked with Smith this year and came to the conclusion that he is very green, and inexperienced in regards to front office responsibilities. He has a Team President in place, a Salary Cap Specialist, and he wanted to bring in an experienced GM and VP in order to connect all departments. People who have had experience doing just that.

Looking at the possible future, it can be said that Smith now has a clear path to GM with the mentorship and tutelage of two long time NFL executives. Hurney is 65, Mayhew is 55. Mayhew is the GM, Hurney is the VP of Player Personnel. It's been said that Hurney was on board to join the team and GM title was not a requirement. He just wanted to work with Rivera, and he understood that the title of GM may be needed in order to get someone hired like Mayhew. So if Hurney decides to hang it up in 3-5 years, Smith has another title upgrade with likely a large pay bump. If he shows out and you really like what you see, you can jump him right to Asst GM and let him and Mayhew work. Together. If Mayhew hangs it up in 10 years that puts Smith at 46 years old with a lot of career left.

Ultimately Smith may not want to wait that long and may move on, but looking at that hypothetical it sets Smith up for a lot more success imho... but that's just me. Smith could hate this plan, or Rivera could just be done with Smith and he leaves before the draft. There are likely on a couple people that truly know what's going on.

 

[Bulldog]

Let's be real. Coaches hire people they know.

Belichick does it. Reid does it. Parcells and Gibbs did it.

Since Washington is setting up its organization in a coach-centric environment, you are not going to see a strong, independent-minded GM like a Bobby Beathard coming here under Rivera. A guy with a big reputation for wheeling and dealing and making improvisational moves.

That's by design. Those kinds of GMs operate on their own with the consent of the owner and themselves hire the head coach and make all the draft picks. The head coach just coaches. That's not the structure we are putting in place here.

I think Rivera is strong enough to handle people around a big table that argue or disagree on points of strategy or personnel evaluation. It's not the creative discussions he is against.

What he doesn't want to have to handle is the kind of friction we saw here when Joe Gibbs wanted to sign Wilber Marshall or trade Mike Oliphant to acquire Earnest Byner and Bobby Beathard and Gibbs ended up having to go to JKC to break the tie because Beathard vehemently opposed these moves, the former involving draft capital.