Kliff. Are you breaking up with me?

Do you want Kliff Kingsbury replaced?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 38.6%

  • No

    Votes: 12 27.3%

  • It depends on who is available

    Votes: 15 34.1%
  • Total voters
    44
Conn said:
I think that’s a part of his game you’d be crazy to take away, but it’s something that almost anyone can work into their scheme. I don’t expect to hire some Arthur Smith type ground and pound triple TE type.

I’m simply saying that the things we’d all identify as Kliff stuff: basically never under center, hurry-up (but with tons of subs?), low motion, RPO’s and designed QB off-tackle type runs…none of THAT is necessary for Daniels to succeed. And a lot of it is arguably what is holding him back and putting him in unnecessary danger (in my opinion of course)

I’m curious who they interview because it will tell us what THEY think they need. Which is more interesting than whatever crap I have to say
Click to expand...

I don’t love Kliff’s offense. I always hated the fact that the only time Kliff had his quarterback under center was when he was going to call a run up the gut, and everybody knew it. I also hated all the passing on goal line.

I’m just less optimistic about how Jayden will do in a more traditional offense. Hopefully he does better than I think or we find another OC who will play to his strengths.
 
Chris 44 said:
Wonder if KK and Johnson are a pack
age deal when KK gets his next gig.
Click to expand...


Yeah i guess, do they have a previous connection to warrant that level of loyalty?
 
CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome said:
I don’t know how anyone watching thought that the stretch run to lock up the playoffs was about Kliff, and not JD. Dude literally played hero ball. We weren't out scheming folks in the least.
Click to expand...

Right. That’s why I’ve been saying lately, are we sure Kliff is the one maximizing Daniels, and not the other way around? Daniels pulled our ass out of the fire in end of game situations over and over again down the stretch his rookie year, in a way that was likely unsustainable. It was magical, but how much of it was about Kliff? Daniels was on fire in end of game situations from the moment we lucked out on that Bears Hail Mary.

Again, it doesn’t mean the grass is greener right now, in this hiring cycle, with Quinn’s future murky. The talent pool could be too dry or no one promising may want to sign up for Quinn’s team. That’s why I keep emphasizing that while I was anti-Kliff, it was under the assumption that it would be a cap on our ceiling that we’d have to confront in a year or two when we were deciding Quinn’s fate, not NOW. We may do worse in the short term despite my issues with Kliff. Which would spell the end of Quinn (and maybe AP if the roster doesn’t seriously improve).
 
Chris 44 said:
Wonder if KK and Johnson are a pack
age deal when KK gets his next gig.
Click to expand...
.........and whether our new OC wants to bring in his own guys. I'm guessing McCarthy and Philbin might emerge as a package deal, too
 
Conn said:
Right. That’s why I’ve been saying lately, are we sure Kliff is the one maximizing Daniels, and not the other way around? Daniels pulled our ass out of the fire in end of game situations over and over again down the stretch his rookie year, in a way that was likely unsustainable. It was magical, but how much of it was about Kliff? Daniels was on fire in end of game situations from the moment we lucked out on that Bears Hail Mary.

Again, it doesn’t mean the grass is greener right now, in this hiring cycle, with Quinn’s future murky. The talent pool could be too dry or no one promising may want to sign up for Quinn’s team. That’s why I keep emphasizing that while I was anti-Kliff, it was under the assumption that it would be a cap on our ceiling that we’d have to confront in a year or two when we were deciding Quinn’s fate, not NOW. We may do worse in the short term despite my issues with Kliff. Which would spell the end of Quinn (and maybe AP if the roster doesn’t seriously improve).
Click to expand...
I have been thinking about this too, and now I could see some way to spin it a bit differently. In particular, you can look at the Eagles where ownership and FO gave Nick a seal of approval, but only Nick. I think that can happen and make sense specifically if your HC has very little ego and is willing to let coordinators control their destiny (and units) largely independently, and meanwhile monitor the situation.

This exact situation that we're in hints that is exactly what happened.

So DQ may not be a lame duck in 2026. If they look completely horrible, sure. If they play "worse than they should" in the eyes of the FO, sure. If they trend well, even if they don't play that well in the whole season (miss playoffs)... I think DQ could easily be fine. I think there could be more rope than people are going to sensationalize right now.
 
SkinsNumberOne said:
Significantly more adversity, I think it's undeniable.

It will be interesting to see how the jumble of events unfolds next year. New players, new coordinators, same HC, same GM.

For those who are saying that DQ is a lame duck next year - yes I have read that theory by writers. I am not 100% sure that's the case. IF he makes himself out to be the guy who hires and manages the coordinators and sits at the 10-thousand foot view, that isn't a guy who has to be fired when year-1 of the second attempt at getting the right coordinators happens.

If his process of picking coordinators is flawed, yes. If they are certain that these coordinators in the long-term will fail, probably. But year-1 of a new pair of coordinators, if the org thinks they are trending in the right direction based on what they have to work with... I guess DQ could stay on with his new pair. That would be my prediction, there are scenarios where the season as a whole doesn't go awesome but there's enough to keep people around. I don't know about something like this season, mind you... but missing the playoffs? I think he could still stick if things look a certain way.
Click to expand...
Yep. I totally get people believing DQ will be a lame duck coach - 2 underwhelming seasons gets a lot of coaches fired - and I think it’s very possible.
But…
AP and Quinn seem to have a great working relationship.
Quinn led us to our best season in decades.
Quinn is very highly respected, by staff and players.
It’s in AP’s interest to make it work with Quinn, and I’d bet it would be an easy sell to Harris.
There are often some growing pains with new coordinators.
To keep the coordinator candidate pool open, you want to be able to tell these guys this isn’t a lame duck year.

I think there’s a decent chance we’ll get some insight with whoever is hired. If our new coordinators are some combo of internal hire (Brian Johnson), veteran coordinators that don’t have a great pedigree (Morris as DC for example), or up-and-comers who’ll be willing to take the risk in part for visibility/resume reasons… it’s probably common knowledge that it’s 2026 or bust for Quinn.

If at least one of our hires falls outside that box, I’d be inclined to think they were told that Quinn will be the coach in ‘27.
 
Chris 44 said:
Im fine with moving on from Kliff. Was he terrible? No. But he is so stubborn in his scheme and how long it took him to make adjustments. The amount of delay of games incurred while allowing the opposing defenses to sub was infuriating. The refs were calling it....stop doing it. The adjustments were just too slow. How many opposing defenders this year called out that they new over and over again what was coming. JD will adjust to a new OC. look at Caleb Williams and Maye this year.
Click to expand...
This is my take as well. I had forgotten the quote from opponents who said they knew what was coming. KK didn't out scheme too many teams and I agree with the comment that perhaps it was Jayden who was carrying Kliff.

We all know our receivers didn't get open, maybe it was the scheme as much as the players? Regardless KK's history is well documented, he starts off like a ball of fire but in time defenses figure him out. This was my concern when he was hired.

But it is kind of crazy to ask a top candidate to leave his position to come here when it's pretty apparent that DQ's job is on the line. Who would move their family for possibly only 1 season?
 
It's possible that someone would come in thinking that DQ is on the hotseat, so they can come in prove themselves and go from hotdog OC to HQ
 
1767734643995.gif
 
mcdonaldrw said:
It's possible that someone would come in thinking that DQ is on the hotseat, so they can come in prove themselves and go from hotdog OC to HQ
Click to expand...
I can't say I've researched it, but I can't recall a time a coordinator looked good beside a head coach on the hotseat. They're on the hotseat because something has gone terribly wrong for an entire season.
 
So, last year I believed that Kliff would stay because he was having more fun as an OC than he would as a HC. This year, I guess he stopped having fun. I still think he did a good job navigating the injuries. It's just that Kliff misunderstood what the old cliche means.

"When the going gets tough the tough get going"

Kliff if doesn't mean that things get rough the tough head for the hills.
 
Okay, here are my long form thoughts.

  • Kliff as an OC:
    • Underrated as our offensive coordinator
    • Had shortcomings, such as inconsistency and head scratching play calls in pivotal moments
    • Deserves some credit for JD's success in '24 (and it seems like he is getting it in the NFL)
    • Deserves some blame for JD's 2025 and his constant injuries
    • Losing Kliff itself isn't much of the issue, but having some semblance of continuity, even on a bad team is important (especially on an offense that was 4th in rushing and 24th in passing). The team seemed to like him, and while that isn't the end all / be all of keeping a coach, the optics of "firing" vs. "letting him pursue other opportunities" are a razor thin margin that are not helped by the reports last week. Letting good coaches go is always a mistake, and letting him go early means that there was absolutely an internal issue here because they didn't even attempt to really negotiate a way to keep him.
    • Grass isn't always greener. Losing Kliff, again, isn't the end of the world. But who is to say the replacement is going to be an improvement? Time will tell.
  • Dan Quinn / Adam Peters Selecting New Coordinators
    • Dan Quinn, two years into his tenure as head coach, is now replacing both coordinators while he himself is possibly on the hot seat.
    • This limits our pool of talent to potential HC candidates and people who are desperate for a job, and gives the impression that we are not a stable organization.
    • While it's possible (perhaps likely) that Kingsbury was bound to leave anyways, the news about him having some turmoil in the organization last week isn't making this better.
    • This is a wait and see situation, but I am not all that thrilled with Adam Peter's performance thus far (see last year's draft class, FA crop, on field product, and Quinn who has fired both coordinators two years into his tenure as HC.
    • It feels like, with Quinn on the potential hot seat, that letting him pick two coordinators and there being potential to see Quinn get fired this next offseason is a Snyder level miscalculation and something bad teams do.
  • Jayden Daniels
    • Jayden Daniels as a quarterback has the following strengths and weaknesses:
      • Strengths: Monster arm, pocket presence, speed/electricity, situational awareness, accuracy, work ethic, and a calm and cool demeanor
      • Weaknesses: Tries to do it all himself, is small from a body mass perspective, injury prone, sometimes forces things.
    • One of the traits that makes Jayden special is the ability to use him as a pure passer, but also use him on designed runs. That is what made him stand out to me vs. a guy like Drake Maye, who has similar abilities but on a lesser scale as a runner to JD5 while also a more polished passer (to date).
    • Designed Runs absolutely should be part of the gameplan with JD5 in the game, but not the entire gameplan with JD5. Jayden needs to be able to use his legs on both scrambles and designed runs because the success he gets builds his confidence to becoming a literal super hero during the course of a game.
  • The offense shouldn't be built around JD as a designed runner; but it should feature him as a runner at times as that threat is what provides the offense opportunities in both the running game and the passing game
    • Jonathan Taylor was on MVP season pace until Daniel Jones went down. Once teams realized they didn't need to worry about the QBs running ability, teams were able to lock in on Taylor and slow him to a halt.
      • Daniel Jones isn't a world beater, but here is his production in 2025: 68% passer, 3101 yards, 19 TD, 8 INT, 45 carries, 164 yards and 5 rushing TD.
        • Jonathan Taylor in games where Daniel Jones was on the field: 226 carries, 1139 yards, 15 TD (5.3 ypc)
        • Jonathan Taylor without Daniel Jones on the field: 97 carries, 446 yards, 3 TD (4.5 ypc)
      • Jayden Daniels' rookie year he was a 69% passer, threw for 3568 yards, 25 TD and 9 INT... but rushed for 148 attempts and 891 yards and 6 TD.
        • Which stat makes him stand out significantly against Daniel Jones' 25 campaign (in 5 less games)? His rushing ability. It's NOT that Jayden Daniels is a running quarterback, as a rookie he was a very good passer who continued to develop. It's that he CAN AND SHOULD utilize the most unique trait he has: his legs
          • My concern with not using Daniels legs isn't just based on designed runs. It's that trying to change the way he plays so quickly into his NFL tenure is a recipe for creating shaky confidence and incosistency (which we saw on display this year on the few games he was healthy this year). Instead of letting him develop, we are trying to force a guy who has relied on his athletic ability when his reads aren't there to really focus on reading the field... WHICH IS GREAT! That IS what we want. But that takes time to get to. When your escape has always been to tuck and go and then you're being constantly told to see the field first, you overthink it. Daniels was drafted because of his dual threat ability, not JUST as a pocket passer.
          • That does NOT mean he is a running quarterback first, but it does mean that we have to let him use his instincts as a football player to make plays while the team is starting to teach plays/concepts where they want him to get through his reads first. Having a plan and working through it with him is key - forcing him to change for the sake of change is a mistake. And yes, Quinn is trying to force that change. HOWEVER - Kliff may have been resistant to developing that change, too (which I wouldn't rule out)
          • For statistical comparison to his improvement in this department
            • Arizona State 2019: 338 passes, 125 rushes (2.44 pass to run ratio)
            • Arizona State 2020: Injury
            • Arizona State 2021: 301 passes, 138 rushes (2.18:1 pass to run ratio)
            • LSU 2022: 388 passes, 186 rushes (2.08:1 pass to run ratio)
            • LSU 2023: 327 passes, 135 rushes (2.42:1 pass to run ratio)
            • Washington 2024: 480 passes, 148 rushes (3.24:1 pass to run ratio)
            • Washington 2025: 188 passes, 58 rushes (3.24:1 pass to run ratio)
              • I'd have liked to see his 2025 ratio improve - it may have, but it was the same as 2024, so not as bad as people are letting on.
                • I'd love to see a break down of called runs vs. Jayden runs for his career. I'm not sure what it would yield but it would be a strong data point.
  • Telling Jayden to ALWAYS be pass first, this early in his career, is the equivalent of buying a Lamborghini and keeping it in the garage and covered all year long and only talking about all the great things it can do
    • This doesn't mean that you take the car out and get it to 100 mph as quickly as you can on your local dirt road - caution and situational awareness are required.​
    • I don't know why, but the forum isn't letting me turn off bold now - and it's frustrating because this post is so well formatted and this is ruining it. But I'm going to carry on anyways!​

My plan would be to increase pass to run ratio as much as I could with Jayden while he is developing on a year to year and sometimes game to game basis while still letting him play fast and do what he needs to. I'd accomplish this by making sure he was familiar with all of the plays we are running, where each check down is and repping that and in practice letting him know "you cannot run here. You have to throw. You can scramble and throw it away, but you cannot cross the line of scrimmage" and I rep the hell out of those kind of situations with him. I'd also practice ways he can protect himself from contact. And then in the game I'd tell him, "Do what you need but protect yourself."

If what I'm doing is working, you would see a steady increase in pass:run ratio... and by the time Jayden is a little older he has now developed into a pure pocket passer that should just sit in the pocket.

If the plan, all along, was to force Jayden into being a pocket passer immediately, then we drafted the wrong guy. It's not that he's not capable of it: it's that he's spent his entire career running the ball at a high clip and asking him to abruptly stop doing the things that got him where he is is incredibly jolting. It takes time to develop a change in habits, and he has had by far his best pass to run ratio of his career in the NFL so far.

Kliff isn't the end all be all for Jayden or this franchise, but the totality of the situation stinks.
 
While i am a bit surprised it actually happened, i am ecstatic we are moving away from Kingsbury!!! I just think we need someone to protect JD5 a bit more and to run (with RB's, not QB's) a bit more! Get under center a bit more!! Some play action would be nice and JD5 will benefit greatly from it! Get someone from the Shanahan tree! There was not much surprise from KK's offense. The quick tempo, no huddle was nice, when things were clicking. Not so much when things were going poorly.

Whitt too, obviously!!! But that was a no brainer and already written down!
 
I don't want to see an internal hire. There really isn't anyone on staff with obvious upside as an OC in waiting.

I want younger, creative minds on defense and more aggressiveness overall.

On offense I want greater maturity and the ability to gameplan on Sundays on the fly as circumstances warrant instead of sitting with the same strategy for 60 minutes even if what we are running is not working.
 
Regardless of who the the next OC is, I certainly hope they can teach the QB's how to get rid of the ball without getting an "Intentional Grounding" flag.

That became embarrassing.

Embarrassed Homer Simpson GIF by AniDom




:indian-chief:The Rook
 
Probably been posted already but Commanders fire OL coach Bobby Johnson.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 2, Members: 0, Guests: 2)

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top