Kliff. Are you breaking up with me?

[Bulldog]

Well, teams on their third or fourth quarterback don't win too many games in the NFL.

So, yesterday to me was a glorified exhibition to look at some of the younger players we drafted and signed, although I obviously would have preferred seeing Burks being a focal point of the PASSING game from KK rather than being a gadget player.

As the #18 overall pick in the draft, we need a chance to evaluate him properly and see if he is a guy we can grow with.

But this team doesn't make anything easy. At 4-11 we were still trying to catch lightning in a bottle in a meaningless contest in the standings.

 

[Die Hard]

Well, teams on their third or fourth quarterback don't win too many games in the NFL.

So, yesterday to me was a glorified exhibition to look at some of the younger players we drafted and signed, although I obviously would have preferred seeing Burks being a focal point of the PASSING game from KK rather than being a gadget player.

As the #18 overall pick in the draft, we need a chance to evaluate him properly and see if he is a guy we can grow with.

But this team doesn't make anything easy. At 4-11 we were still trying to catch lightning in a bottle in a meaningless contest in the standings.

Just another knock on KK. He just never exploits matchups.

Week after week we watch opposing offenses pick on specific players… or holes in our scheme. They make the game look so easy.

And Kliff doesnt attack a specific players/matchup or feature a certain player. Like ever. I get spreading it out (based on reads) has its advantages too.

Our offense plods. Every play is a struggle and fight for every inch. We never scheme anyone open… or cause breakages in coverage.

And those statements are not absolutes… I can pull specific examples but I mean consistently.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Just another knock on KK. He just never exploits matchups.

Week after week we watch opposing offenses pick on specific players… or holes in our scheme. They make the game look so easy.

And Kliff doesnt attack a specific players/matchup or feature a certain player. Like ever. I get spreading it out (based on reads) has its advantages too.

Our offense plods. Every play is a struggle and fight for every inch. We never scheme anyone open… or cause breakages in coverage.

And those statements are not absolutes… I can pull specific examples but I mean consistently.

I agree with you. Generally you have explosive plays, but they're not schematic wins, they're talent driven. Croskey Merritt on a big run because the O-Line opened up the hole, or he makes a key cutback into an open lane. Deebo on the reverse beats the LB around the edge. Terry gets a long pass because he beats the CB man to man. Very rarely do we see motion and movement to 'set up' a matchup win. This league is so talent loaded, favorable matchups are the absolute necessity when it comes to winning. You can't just go out there, and expect to be 'better' than the guy across from you in and out.

 

[skinzplay]

I think Kliff rode JD5 more so than JD5 somehow blossoming under Kliff.

Who knows, maybe he'll return to the college ranks. Maybe he'll turn up in Ann Arbor as OC.

I think his only chance at a HC gig in the NFL is as interim-to-permanent if the HC he works under is fired. I can't imagine an owner risking it, except Davis (who's dumb enough, but Brady probably wouldn't allow it) or maybe the brain trust in Cleveland.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

I agree with you. Generally you have explosive plays, but they're not schematic wins, they're talent driven. Croskey Merritt on a big run because the O-Line opened up the hole, or he makes a key cutback into an open lane. Deebo on the reverse beats the LB around the edge. Terry gets a long pass because he beats the CB man to man. Very rarely do we see motion and movement to 'set up' a matchup win. This league is so talent loaded, favorable matchups are the absolute necessity when it comes to winning. You can't just go out there, and expect to be 'better' than the guy across from you in and out.

Yes and this is critical to what a few of us have been saying is a major concern on Kliff.

All teams will have injuries; but when you have them, this style that you are describing is going to be way worse at having good showings with injuries. You are relying statistically more on your players’ talent combined with the play, instead of looking at players individually on both sides and seeing how you can win matchups. That tailoring may not have won us games but I am very confident we would have looked a lot better. Not a little. A lot. I think our offense looked significantly worse than it had to given our OL/TEs/RBs. They aren’t world beaters but they could have looked better than they did.

For me, that is a major visible issue from this year.

 

[burgold]

Are you guys really grousing that Kliff wasn't able to tailor plays so that Robbie Chosen had as many explosives as Justin Jefferson?

 

[Chris]

Are you guys really grousing that Kliff wasn't able to tailor plays so that Robbie Chosen had as many explosives as Justin Jefferson?

Burgundy & Grousing Obsession 😇

 

[Die Hard]

Are you guys really grousing that Kliff wasn't able to tailor plays so that Robbie Chosen had as many explosives as Justin Jefferson?

How many slumping players, backups and 7th round draft picks have enjoyed career days against us?

Yes, NFL coordinators can scheme players open and feature players that arent Pro Bowlers. It happens every week in the NFL.

When was the last time our #3 receiver broke out with 100 yards? Or our backup TD caught a TD or 2 in a game?

 

[Chris]

How many of those lesser players had very good or career performances when they were the #1 or #2 options on offense?

 

[skinsmarydu]

Or our backup TD caught a TD or 2 in a game?

TE?

 

[Die Hard]

How many of those lesser players had very good or career performances when they were the #1 or #2 options on offense?

Does it matter? If an OC thinks his 3rd WR is better than the other team’s nickle corner… how is that not smart scheming? Matchups.

Tre Tucker, WR Vegas. 145 yards, 8 catches, 3 TDs.

Tucker Kraft, TE Packers, 124 yards, 6 catcyes, 1TD

And there’s more.

Of course, you can go to ESPN.com yourself.

 

[Die Hard]

Another KK pet peeve from yesterday.

Why is Samuel running a hook route? The man isn’t a burner that creates separation… he needs to run east-west to create some space. When he runs north-south routes like a hook, a defender is already is his back hip on the break, so he’s going to make an easy play on the ball. It wasnt even close.

 

[Chris]

Does it matter? If an OC thinks his 3rd WR is better than the other team’s nickle corner… how is that not smart scheming? Matchups.

Tre Tucker, WR Vegas. 145 yards, 8 catches, 3 TDs.

Tucker Kraft, TE Packers, 124 yards, 6 catcyes, 1TD

And there’s more.

Of course, you can go to ESPN.com yourself.

No reason to be a dick but not unexpected.

Of course it matters. Using your example, was Kraft or Tucker the #1 or #2 threat on the field? Of course not.

If your argument is that our defense is pitiful, I’m fully on board. If it’s that Kingsbury should be dialing up big performances by lesser players without starters in the lineup, I think the argument is fatally flawed.

BTW- Sinnott caught a TD this year. 😉

 

[Primus Porcus]

No reason to be a dick but not unexpected.

Of course it matters. Using your example, was Kraft or Tucker the #1 or #2 threat on the field? Of course not.

If your argument is that our defense is pitiful, I’m fully on board. If it’s that Kingsbury should be dialing up big performances by lesser players without starters in the lineup, I think the argument is fatally flawed.

BTW- Sinnott caught a TD this year. 😉

Me personally, it's less about dialing up big performances by lesser players, and more wishing we had a bit of that "why the hell is THAT guy covering 'our guy'" reaction to some plays. We constantly watch the games and see schematic shifts to get Frankie Luvu covering a zone that Ceedee Lamb is targeted in. I love Luvu but Lamb is going to beat him to a spot 10 times out of 10. We know Bobby Wagner can't cover like he used to, but we see a designed play call to get him isolated on Deandre Swift on a wheel route resulting in a TD.

I would like to see a bit more of that manipulation if I could. I'm not saying Kliff is a problem, just see opportunities is all.

 

[Chris]

Me personally, it's less about dialing up big performances by lesser players, and more wishing we had a bit of that "why the hell is THAT guy covering 'our guy'" reaction to some plays. We constantly watch the games and see schematic shifts to get Frankie Luvu covering a zone that Ceedee Lamb is targeted in. I love Luvu but Lamb is going to beat him to a spot 10 times out of 10. We know Bobby Wagner can't cover like he used to, but we see a designed play call to get him isolated on Deandre Swift on a wheel route resulting in a TD.

I would like to see a bit more of that manipulation if I could. I'm not saying Kliff is a problem, just see opportunities is all.

I get your point, Derek, but this again is an argument against our defense, which is 100% valid, but not Kingsbury per se. When Moore, Chosen etc are #2 and #3 options at WR behind Deebo, who is not a true receiver-type, I doubt that the greatest scheming in the world would be very successful.

 

[method man]

He schemed up a great plan against one of the better pash rush defenses in the league (Broncos) and then craps the bed and changes the game plan the following week against another complex blitzing defense (Vikings).

As Conn said, KK is inconsistent.

One of the reasons the team loves Mary-Ota… is that KK feels like he doesn’t have to change the playbook - similar styles - or even condense it - because he’s a veteran.

I feel like they feel the same way about Johnson (style)… but they have to condense the playbook to what he knows - doesn’t get a lot of reps and only joined this year - and what he does best - because he’s physically limited and skill limitations.

Johnson made a lot of bad decisions (covered receivers) and throws (late) yesterday. He was very fortunate enough were positive plays. And he avoided the boneheaded INT. His pass attempts were low. But he was serviceable… which is what I thought he could be…. but har serious doubts after pre-season and last week.

KK had two weeks to put together a gameplan for the Broncos. That certainly helped

KK is certainly not the first guy to look foolish against Flores. Flores just owned Campbell

 

[Primus Porcus]

I get your point, Derek, but this again is an argument against our defense, which is 100% valid, but not Kingsbury per se. When Moore, Chosen etc are #2 and #3 options at WR behind Deebo, who is not a true receiver-type, I doubt that the greatest scheming in the world would be very successful.

no argument form me brother, i'm 1000% in agreeance that the ingredients to cook with haven't exactly been top shelf. Kliff has polished this turd very well with the injuries and missed time.

I'm just looking at things from a wide lens and asking the questions about scheming matchup problems. I personally would like to see more of those type of moments, especially when we have our top dogs back. Moving Terry around to get him lined up across from a LB. Not an indictment, just an observation.

Edit: i'm a moron and actually said i'd like to line Terry up across from a WR

 

[Primus Porcus]

KK had two weeks to put together a gameplan for the Broncos. That certainly helped

KK is certainly not the first guy to look foolish against Flores. Flores just owned Campbell

Denver also had 2 weeks to put together a defensive gameplan for KK....

 

[NickyJ]

Frankie Luvu would probably look better in coverage if he were covering Robbie Chosen (I didn't realize he was Robbie Anderson, been forever since he was getting hyped up like Terrelle Pryor was) and Chris Moore.

I like Deebo Samuel, but he was one man who had to make up for everything. I'm sure Kliff could have done a lot of things better, but with the entire receiving corps decimated to practice squad players combined with backup QBs, we watched Kliff play chess with 14 pawns and 2 knights.

All this to say, I was frustrated with some of Kliff's playcalls, like when he had to gain 2 yards but failed. But as frustrating as that was, this season was such a trainwreck that I'm not ready to say that a lot of things would be fixed by replacing both coordinators (Whitt has to go) in year 3. Kliff showed he had brains in year 1, surely he deserves one more chance to get it back together.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Frankie Luvu would probably look better in coverage if he were covering Robbie Chosen (I didn't realize he was Robbie Anderson, been forever since he was getting hyped up like Terrelle Pryor was) and Chris Moore.

I like Deebo Samuel, but he was one man who had to make up for everything. I'm sure Kliff could have done a lot of things better, but with the entire receiving corps decimated to practice squad players combined with backup QBs, we watched Kliff play chess with 14 pawns and 2 knights.

All this to say, I was frustrated with some of Kliff's playcalls, like when he had to gain 2 yards but failed. But as frustrating as that was, this season was such a trainwreck that I'm not ready to say that a lot of things would be fixed by replacing both coordinators (Whitt has to go) in year 3. Kliff showed he had brains in year 1, surely he deserves one more chance to get it back together.

Fair, but why dont we push to get Terry Mclaurin matched up with Logan Wilson? That's the point. We have the premium player, scheme him up to a clear mismatch.