Kliff. Are you breaking up with me?

Do you want Kliff Kingsbury replaced?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 38.6%
  • No

    Votes: 12 27.3%
  • It depends on who is available

    Votes: 15 34.1%

  • Total voters
    44
I posted an article and someone is going to go off the rails? Is there a reason why an article can't be shared in a post? Please mods/admins direct/refresh me if there is another forum board on this site that I am supposed to post articles that relates to the topic somewhere else. I have never in my 21 years of posting on other Redskin/Commander forums seen such brash responses in my life. To simplify: If Kliff stays he stays. If Kliff takes another job or is released so, be it. Some like the dude and some want us to move on from him. It's simple.


Not sure what the concern here is... nobody has even quoted your article that you posted?

Not sure how you can say you've never seen such 'brash responses' in 21 years either, because this has been the tone for a hell of a lot longer than that. This conversation has been pretty tame to be honest. Yeah, some of us believe we should keep Kliff, and we're making those points on an open message board. Others don't agree, and they're making those points... what's the problem?
 
You don’t run a business retaining mediocre people
Unless you try to get out of that meme that I remember so well...and that doesn't just instantly happen
we sit here with mediocrity
As we've done for decades. Suck it up, buttercup. Seriously...can we get on without all the negativity?
Screaming your fingers off won't solve anything.
 
Not sure what the concern here is... nobody has even quoted your article that you posted?

Not sure how you can say you've never seen such 'brash responses' in 21 years either, because this has been the tone for a hell of a lot longer than that. This conversation has been pretty tame to be honest. Yeah, some of us believe we should keep Kliff, and we're making those points on an open message board. Others don't agree, and they're making those points... what's the problem?
Don't think he's talking about you, at all.
 
Ok pot. Saying there are things to improve is not that far from firing him is doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of. There's a chasm between the two. Every coach can and needs to improve in areas. Equating the two is pushing a bullshit narrative.

Likewise, copping out that "I have no evidence that his relationship with Daniels matters," or "he'll ever change" is dismissing issues with a wave of your hand because they don't fit your narrative rather than discussing them.

You should know about being close minded...

You think he has issues that need to improve in the long term. People who don’t believe in him feel the exact same way! They just also feel like it’s more likely he does not improve, and that we’ll waste years of our QB’s career coming to that conclusion organically. I really don’t get why it’s so hard to humanize that position.

We all reached that point eventually with various coaches. Some came to it earlier, some later. And some, to be fair, did not come to it organically at all and were just consistently negative and “lucked” into being correct because we sucked so bad for so long…so I do have sympathy for anyone who think THIS situation is that. But the point is there was a line for everyone, for instance, where they came to believe that a coach was not improving, and felt that they could project the future with that coach.

That’s not to say that either side can’t be right. I’m a Kliff skeptic and I may be wrong. But that’s the only difference between where you’re at and where someone you disagree with is at—that they don’t think it’s going to improve, and are typing that.

Which is why I said the “can’t be civil” line was so interesting to me. We all want to win and just disagree on how to get there. Kliff is one of the more divisive topics I can remember recently in this fanbase. And imo it’s because even most of his critics don’t think he’s bad—they admit he’s pretty good, with some issues! They just want more, while others think that “more” may already be in-house with Kliff.
 
All of that is possible. It’s also possible it doesn’t happen, though. For anyone who doesn’t find it likely, it should be easy to see why they’d want to move on, because you can just imagine feeling the opposite of how you feel.

You don’t get to the top of your field without exceptional drive and ability. Basically every coach in this league is a 99th percentile competitor in their field, and they ALL put in ungodly hours to improve and win. It doesn’t always work.

There’s a reason you can easily name the coaches who stagnated and then rebounded in a big way, or were bad and then became historically good. Because it doesn’t always happen. It usually doesn’t happen, actually. Lots of guys are mediocre or even above average (or even very good!) for a long time and are never able to get over the hump, or at some point the league passes them by, or just plain bad luck ruins their last opportunity before they realized it was their last opportunity. Happens to young guys and old guys. It’s happened to guys more and less impressive than Kliff Kingsbury. It’s not some sort of unique, personal insult to Kliff to think that he might just be what he is, in a general sense.

The people with specific criticisms and skepticism about KK’s offense and his playcalling have posted a lot about it. With details. In fact before this rumor broke today I said recently that I was refraining from posting much about it because I KNOW how unpopular it is to talk about for most people. My question is, other than the normal human optimism of “he can grow and learn and improve” (even though his issues that people are worried about have been consistent features of his game plans) why do you think it’s more likely than not?

Nothing is guaranteed to happen in either direction, this is a discussion about where you draw the line, right? Because if he still has the same (generally agreed upon) flaws that people worry about now (that you think can improve) in three years, then I think most people would be fine with moving on unless Daniels is such a stud that we win anyways. So it’s just a matter of timing and belief. So what makes you believe he is more likely to adapt and grow than not? What makes your position more reasonable than someone skeptical that he will improve, as many who try really hard don’t? It’s easy to say “Belichick failed before he succeeded”, etc. (and I disagree with you about Andy Reid btw, he and the Eagles needed a fresh start after a long period together, it happens. It doesn’t mean they were wrong to fire him. Especially after what happened with his son, he also needed a fresh start and became re-energized in KC. It worked for all involved in the long run).

When I say “shit or get off the pot” with Kliff I’m just referring to the fact that if we’re replacing him after next year, nobody with real potential will come and work for Quinn because he’ll he viewed as a lame duck HC deep into his contract and still trying to get his coordinators right. So it is now or never. The answer CAN be never btw, that’s fine, you seem to fall on that side because you believe. But if you don’t believe, I’m simply saying that now (when you’re already replacing the DC and it’s only been two years under Quinn) is the time to strike if you want real OC candidates to consider working for you (and have guys in mind—I’m speculating with the caveat that I’m assuming a well-thought out process and organizational direction if they move on. If not, all bets are off for this regime anyways).

And again, this is only such a hot topic because of the Russini rumors. Before this, I think most KK skeptics didn’t actually think he’d get fired soon, even if we thought he wasn’t good enough in the big picture. So the whole conversation has more fire behind it now when before it was more about whether he was the best guy for Daniels long term.


I guess if we're talking about ripping a band aid, and the belief is that Kingsbury is gone next offseason, i can see a conversation to be had about 'why hold on if the future if available.' So i'll honestly and whole heartedly ask... where's the future? I'm open to that conversation because at the end of the day we're on the same page, the absolute best thing for this franchise long term, is Jayden Daniels' development. Whatever it takes to continue to build him to be a Super Bowl QB. I personally see Kingsbury as part of that equation, especially with Blough leaving, but I will not argue against that as the 10000% most important part of the puzzle.

My quibble is not with that, as that point is bigger than whatever we want to debate. My issue is the argument that Kingsbury needs to be jettisoned because of some idea that he's a failure. That his schematic mentality will never be good enough, to which i say, it's been a hell of a lot better than what we've had, so i'm not willing to look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
not sure who he's talking about.. he tapped admins, which i am, so i was just responding.
Respectfully, yes they have PP. I'll leave it at that. Moving on....this isn't directed at you I am just adding it to the post. :)

There are a lot of viewpoints and opinions going round right now. Fortunately, when your winning all is well. Unfortunately, When the team is losing fingers get points in every direction. We all loved the 2024 season and I related it to D's not being able to scheme on JD and KK's game plan and system that KK used/uses. I think the other team's D started to catch onto KK's scheme as they did in the past when he was with Arizona as HC. His schemes worked well in CFB but there seems to be (not saying that there is) but seems to be a pattern in just 2 years here that may be repeating itself. Just an observation on my end. I could be out in right field watching the grass grow according to some and that's ok to disagree and some might be playing out in right field watching it grow with me but it our opinion and who says we are wrong and who says we are right. That's all. There a song that Billy Joel sang called "I Go to Extremes". I think that might be the case here or on any topic.
 
Respectfully, yes they have PP. I'll leave it at that. Moving on....this isn't directed at you I am just adding it to the post. :)

There are a lot of viewpoints and opinions going round right now. Fortunately, when your winning all is well. Unfortunately, When the team is losing fingers get points in every direction. We all loved the 2024 season and I related it to D's not being able to scheme on JD and KK's game plan and system that KK used/uses. I think the other team's D started to catch onto KK's scheme as they did in the past when he was with Arizona as HC. His schemes worked well in CFB but there seems to be (not saying that there is) but seems to be a pattern in just 2 years here that may be repeating itself. Just an observation on my end. I could be out in right field watching the grass grow according to some and that's ok to disagree and some might be playing out in right field watching it grow with me but it our opinion and who says we are wrong and who says we are right. That's all. There a song that Billy Joel sang called "I Go to Extremes". I think that might be the case here or on any topic.


I just didnt want you to feel targeted, or 'responsible' for some sort of fall out. Your post was not at all viewed as negative, and I didnt want you to feel targeted either.

This conversation is very clean compared to some of the back and forth i've witnessed... you're good bud, you did nothing wrong with posting what you did, where you did.
 
Not sure what the concern here is... nobody has even quoted your article that you posted?

Not sure how you can say you've never seen such 'brash responses' in 21 years either, because this has been the tone for a hell of a lot longer than that. This conversation has been pretty tame to be honest. Yeah, some of us believe we should keep Kliff, and we're making those points on an open message board. Others don't agree, and they're making those points... what's the problem?
100%. Very tame, from what I've been used to. Warnings and bans were issued. Holy cow.
It's very cordial here, and I was as nice as my mean-ass self could be earlier when I politely said I was tired of hearing the opinion, it was well established, so I know it couldn't have been me.
My point is that is doesn't have to be re-hashed over and over again.
 
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I just didnt want you to feel targeted, or 'responsible' for some sort of fall out. Your post was not at all viewed as negative, and I didnt want you to feel targeted either.

This conversation is very clean compared to some of the back and forth i've witnessed... you're good bud, you did nothing wrong with posting what you did, where you did.
Thank you, I just wanted to be sure I was following the guidelines and posting an article with a reporter's opinion in them that would add some more thoughts to the Kliff cliffhanger we may be on right now. We know that Russini has a checkered past as a reporter but the SI article I posted was from a semi known reporter from Sports Illustrated. (y)
 
says who? We're on the outside looking in, exactly how this team clearly prefers it. If we've learned anything from this front office, it's that they handle their business in house, and they present things strategically.

If they want to let Kliff go, so be it. I'm not gonna be mad, but damn there are people on this board acting like the guy hasn't led us to be better offensively than any coordinator we've had over the last 30 years. To that point, that offense took us further than any offense we've had over the last 3 decades despite having all the 'benefits' that Kliff had last year. A top 5 QB pick. MULTIPLE times having a bottom of the division schedule. We've scraped into the post season by virtue of losing seasons... yet the line we draw is that this guy is the problem? Come on.
My point is, since we aren't behind the closed doors, we don't know all of what goes into their decision making process. So at one level, with that, there is a "who do you trust" with what we are able to see and what I guess we assume/guess to be true.

So, who do we trust given that?

I understand very well, that if we look at statistics, injuries, and the performance last year and this year, BAM. I don't see a good argument for letting KK go. How is that the whole story though?

Again, there IS more, and it's visible. Then, there can easily be MUCH MORE that IS invisible (behind closed doors).

Visible: DQ and KK with directly contradicting pressers, which is potentially a sign of dysfunction (for some, it automatically is, but for others, it depends on how it plays out; these contradictions have gone over 2 years which I would say is a problem).

Visible: KK does not play some of AP's draft picks much and there isn't any *visible* reason. We can assume KK sees problems with Sinnott. Can we also guess that KK liked Ertz a lot? Can we see a world where that *could* be true and rankled AP? I mean, look that's conjecture, but we can come up with 1000 similar conjectures that lead to what we have seen and a problem with Sinnott being benched, because as many of us have pointed out, his reps haven't completely lined up with what we have seen in his limited play, plus his need for more game time.

There is more to list here, but I think the main point is more simple. There are things going on behind closed doors in any well run organization that we will not be privy to. Those details could be better for KK than we know, or they could be worse. We just don't know. So what do we believe here?

I totally get the logic that says, KK with an ALL-AGREED garbage defense got us to the NFCCG, why on EARTH would we move on from him so soon, when there are all these injuries this year. IF that is the whole story. It's not though. There is more to this story, and there may be a LOT more that we don't know.

So for me, if they fire Kliff, I won't be surprised or sad. I also don't think it guarantees we will be better for it next year in terms of *results*. It's just the case sometimes that a coordinator just doesn't mesh for one reason or another within an org. It doesn't mean they are good or bad, but the fit isn't right.

Also I want to remind everyone that Josh Harris is on record FREQUENTLY (along with AP who has parroted it a few times) that he wants to build a long-term contender. So no, one trip to the NFCCG means nothing if they see signs of dysfunction in any place (including where we can't see, but I think we CAN see some) that would hinder our ability to compete consistently.
 
I guess if we're talking about ripping a band aid, and the belief is that Kingsbury is gone next offseason, i can see a conversation to be had about 'why hold on if the future if available.' So I’ll honestly and whole heartedly ask... where's the future? I'm open to that conversation because at the end of the day we're on the same page, the absolute best thing for this franchise long term, is Jayden Daniels' development. Whatever it takes to continue to build him to be a Super Bowl QB. I personally see Kingsbury as part of that equation, especially with Blough leaving, but I will not argue against that as the 10000% most important part of the puzzle.

My quibble is not with that, as that point is bigger than whatever we want to debate. My issue is the argument that Kingsbury needs to be jettisoned because of some idea that he's a failure. That his schematic mentality will never be good enough, to which i say, it's been a hell of a lot better than what we've had, so i'm not willing to look a gift horse in the mouth.

Can only speak for myself, but I think that’s a totally reasonable position to have. I’m completely fine with the idea that the red flags I see in Kliff don’t exist for someone else, or don’t concern them nearly as much, or aren’t even necessarily important observations in the first place! I’m pretty unprotective of my opinions. We have a small enough sample size of Kliff here that I think it’s very reasonable to take a “strong opinions, loosely held” stance. Where, as new evidence pours in, ideas can change quickly. I think that’s the most rational and humble way to be for a sports fan. For me, my issues have existed since early last season and I keep seeing them crop up, when we’re successful and when we’re not. And I’ve bored people enough with that. But I don’t see people who like Kliff or don’t think he deserves to be fired as crazy. I think it’s the default position and it’s rational. I just think that noting undesirable patterns and projecting them forward is ALSO rational.

I honestly didn’t think Kliff being on the outs was realistic this early, despite my skepticism of him long term. And Russini might be full of shit. So I’ll just be starting my research into who could be a good, realistic hire that would meet my criteria and be a potential improvement. I don’t have a list because despite my issues with the playcalling I thought we’d be having this conversation at the eventual end of the Quinn regime’s lifespan, if we didn’t win a SB: when AP was searching for HC #2 (if he built a good enough roster to keep his GM position in that future), a couple years from now. So I have no idea right now. Luckily, I’m not the one paid to make that decision if the org decides to move on from Kingsbury!

I’m one who eventually really wants to tie Jayden Daniels to a genius offensive playcaller as HC, if we don’t get over the hump with Quinn. So this is actually a setback for that, given that finding a young buck now who excels with Daniels would just get the dude poached. So while I take it as a good sign if AP sees the same things I do in Kliff (natural, given I believe my own opinion on this is correct), there’s a part of me that just wants to let the Quinn era play out and if it doesn’t go well, find that offensive guru later for a permanent hire. It’s a complex issue.
 
I honestly didn’t think Kliff being on the outs was realistic this early, despite my skepticism of him long term. And Russini might be full of shit. So I’ll just be starting my research into who could be a good, realistic hire that would meet my criteria and be a potential improvement. I don’t have a list because despite my issues with the playcalling I thought we’d be having this conversation at the eventual end of the Quinn regime’s lifespan, if we didn’t win a SB: when AP was searching for HC #2 (if he built a good enough roster to keep his GM position in that future), a couple years from now. So I have no idea right now. Luckily, I’m not the one paid to make that decision if the org decides to move on from Kingsbury!

I’m one who eventually really wants to tie Jayden Daniels to a genius offensive playcaller as HC, if we don’t get over the hump with Quinn. So this is actually a setback for that, given that finding a young buck now who excels with Daniels would just get the dude poached. So while I take it as a good sign if AP sees the same things I do in Kliff (natural, given I believe my own opinion on this is correct), there’s a part of me that just wants to let the Quinn era play out and if it doesn’t go well, find that offensive guru later for a permanent hire. It’s a complex issue.
Do you know who the OC is for Cignetti and IU? Mike Shanahan! No relation. Haha.

Apparently getting shared credit with Cignetti for IU offense. One of my friends texted recently about him, I know almost nothing more than what I just said, but my friend seems pretty excited and has been unhappy with KK for much of the same reasons you and I have said in the past.
 
Can only speak for myself, but I think that’s a totally reasonable position to have. I’m completely fine with the idea that the red flags I see in Kliff don’t exist for someone else, or don’t concern them nearly as much, or aren’t even necessarily important observations in the first place! I’m pretty unprotective of my opinions. We have a small enough sample size of Kliff here that I think it’s very reasonable to take a “strong opinions, loosely held” stance. Where, as new evidence pours in, ideas can change quickly. I think that’s the most rational and humble way to be for a sports fan. For me, my issues have existed since early last season and I keep seeing them crop up, when we’re successful and when we’re not. And I’ve bored people enough with that. But I don’t see people who like Kliff or don’t think he deserves to be fired as crazy. I think it’s the default position and it’s rational. I just think that noting undesirable patterns and projecting them forward is ALSO rational.

I honestly didn’t think Kliff being on the outs was realistic this early, despite my skepticism of him long term. And Russini might be full of shit. So I’ll just be starting my research into who could be a good, realistic hire that would meet my criteria and be a potential improvement. I don’t have a list because despite my issues with the playcalling I thought we’d be having this conversation at the eventual end of the Quinn regime’s lifespan, if we didn’t win a SB: when AP was searching for HC #2 (if he built a good enough roster to keep his GM position in that future), a couple years from now. So I have no idea right now. Luckily, I’m not the one paid to make that decision if the org decides to move on from Kingsbury!

I’m one who eventually really wants to tie Jayden Daniels to a genius offensive playcaller as HC, if we don’t get over the hump with Quinn. So this is actually a setback for that, given that finding a young buck now who excels with Daniels would just get the dude poached. So while I take it as a good sign if AP sees the same things I do in Kliff (natural, given I believe my own opinion on this is correct), there’s a part of me that just wants to let the Quinn era play out and if it doesn’t go well, find that offensive guru later for a permanent hire. It’s a complex issue.


It's funny you mention all that, because my preference from day 1 was an offensive minded HC, so you don't have to recycle the offensive scheme every 2 - 3 years.. If your OC is good, he gets hired away, if he's shit, he gets fired. If your HC has an offensive mindset, the system at a minimum stays consistent... so you're actually speaking my language. I'll also freely admit that I root, hard. I want to win with THIS staff because I want the team to win, but I do objectively believe Kliff has shown enough to say he's got the ability to win. I guess my point is I'd rather win a Super Bowl in 2026 and Kliff get hired away to be a HC, than i would jettison him now. At a minimum he's proven capable of getting us closer than we've been for a long damn time, and I dont want to let those chances just walk out the door.
 
Damn, some of y'all write novels here about opinions of this or that.

Especially this. Thank you.
Don't thank me yet.
Just don't make me ad ad ad......... :cool:
 


I think a few of you might benefit from watching this.
The way he describes some of Kliff’s behavior and actions is a little bit concerning to say the least.
 
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How is that any different than what Kingsbury did last year? He maximized minimal talent, and did the same this year given the ridiculous spate of injuries?

Brian Johnson meanwhile elevated Hurts to almost an MVP, and sucks?

I think you lost the plot of this stream of discussion. It was regarding Howie’s power over coaching staff. My argument was his taking control and putting in place better and more experienced coordinators won them the Super Bowl.

By the way, I am a KK guy and it would be a real loss to lose him unless they can replace him with another highly respected offensive mind
 
I am gonna be me but respectful. :cool: I'm not good being someone else.
No one is asking you to be. You *and others* know I ain't a fan of that.
But your point has been made, sides have been "taken", and there's not much more until a move has been made on either side...
I don't wanna play chess until I have to.

Moves will be made. Things will be discussed. Until we know what they are, what was said, and how discussions are moving, we're hangin' in limbo.

Put on some good music like me. Gonna be a while.

Hail in there!!!
 

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