In Other News, Meriweather Is Still Stupid

[SilentThreat]

As for the rest of the posts - I don't recall anyone getting in trouble for hitting hard, or saying that hitting hard is what the problem is.

what would you call the "defenseless receiver" penalties then? The hits themselves aren't even necessarily that hard, they just look violent because the receiver does not have time to brace for impact. That's a penalty for hitting hard. Lots of the hits aren't even leading with the helmet or 'targeting' as the NCAA likes to call it.

 

[tshile]

what would you call the "defenseless receiver" penalties then? The hits themselves aren't even necessarily that hard, they just look violent because the receiver does not have time to brace for impact. That's a penalty for hitting hard. Lots of the hits aren't even leading with the helmet or 'targeting' as the NCAA likes to call it.

You agreed with me in your post - 'the hits aren't even necessarily that hard'

It's not about hitting hard. It's about where you hit them, how you hit them, and when you hit them.

...
(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.
...

There is only one penalty that has anything to do with how hard you hit someone and that's roughing the passer with the whole 'driving into the ground' crap they've introduced to protect the stars.

 

[SilentThreat]

You agreed with me in your post - 'the hits aren't even necessarily that hard'

It's not about hitting hard. It's about where you hit them, how you hit them, and when you hit them.




There is only one penalty that has anything to do with how hard you hit someone and that's roughing the passer with the whole 'driving into the ground' crap they've introduced to protect the stars.

Yeah I guess it's all based on terminology. I agree with you that guys don't get penalized for a hard hit, per say, but it's going in that direction. RBs aren't even supposed to put their head down outside of the tackles..

 

[tshile]

Yes, RB's aren't supposed to do that because it leads to helmet to helmet hits.

Ironically, that rule was put in place to protect defenders that try to make a legit tackle but wind up going helmet to helmet because the offensive guy lowers his head at the last second; or to protect them because 220+lbs running backs turn themselves into human battering rams.

It's about stopping heads from colliding. If you decleat someone with a legit tackle (see the way Fletcher tackles for an example) no one is going to fine, suspend, or penalize you (unless it's on a QB, which is an entirely different issue...)

If Meriweather hit people in the area below the neck and didn't lead with his helmet he wouldn't be in this position.

 

[SilentThreat]

Yes, RB's aren't supposed to do that because it leads to helmet to helmet hits.

Ironically, that rule was put in place to protect defenders that try to make a legit tackle but wind up going helmet to helmet because the offensive guy lowers his head at the last second; or to protect them because 220+lbs running backs turn themselves into human battering rams.

It's about stopping heads from colliding. If you decleat someone with a legit tackle (see the way Fletcher tackles for an example) no one is going to fine, suspend, or penalize you (unless it's on a QB, which is an entirely different issue...)

If Meriweather hit people in the area below the neck and didn't lead with his helmet he wouldn't be in this position.

Right, but 9 times out of 10 that the scenario plays out, the defender is the one flagged. The league is softening as clearly as it's fighting the fight against our beloved team name. I'm not defending Meriweather, the rules are the rules, but what he said isn't new. It's been said by multiple players, coaches, and analysts. Some of which fall into all 3 of those categories. Meriweather is and idiot, and I wish he would just keep his mouth shut. He's being a distraction and he's going to say/do the wrong thing and someone on our offense is going to be targeted, much like a bean ball in baseball.

All that said, guys legs are getting torn up at an ALARMING rate this year. The one TE for the Dolphins many never play again because the safety was afraid of going high.

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

Mike Ditka made the point Sunday that he didn't know of anyone that had had their season ended by a concussion this year. (Neither do I.) But he could rattle off a lengthy list of guys that have been lost to massive knee injuries. (So could I.) Given the choice, ALL of the former players on ESPN's pregame show chose to get hit high. And all of them played when headhunting was perfectly legal.

 

[Boone]

Mike Ditka made the point Sunday that he didn't know of anyone that had had their season ended by a concussion this year. (Neither do I.) But he could rattle off a lengthy list of guys that have been lost to massive knee injuries. (So could I.) Given the choice, ALL of the former players on ESPN's pregame show chose to get hit high. And all of them played when headhunting was perfectly legal.

Isn't that totally besides the point though Jugs? These rule changes weren't instituted to ensure someone doesn't miss playing time or experience a career-threatening lower extremity injury. That's not to imply that players aren't concerned about those possibilities. But compared to the risk of permanent brain damage, the league is right to consider those risks as secondary considerations. There is no question that for some players, repeated concussions cause not just concussion symptoms, but depression, major neuro problems, even suicidal thoughts/impulses later in life. The Libertarian in me says that NFL players know the risks and the NFL should let them play the game. But the NFL is legally (and maybe even morally) culpable and can't ignore the risks to players. The issue of unintended effects like perhaps an increase in career- threatening lower extremity injuries is a separate issue in my opinion, not a reason to allow blows to the head to continue.

 

[tshile]

Too many people (like Mike Ditka) see the concussion issue as one about manhood, or toughness, or strength. It leads to comparisons to things like knee injuries.

Your knee doesn't determine your ability to feed yourself when you're 60.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

True, but knee injuries effect a player's career and long-term earning potential moreso than concussions do (except for the really bad ones). Some guys just never regain their former speed or cutting ability, and lose money because of them. Yes, concussions can cause depression and anxiety and a whole mess of other mental issues down the line, but as soon as you pass concussion tests, you can play football again at the same level as before.

 

[tshile]

Boone already spoke to that point.

If you don't care about the long term viability of the players then so be it (and possibly by extension: the long term viability of the sport), but what Boone said is what the actual issue is.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Boone already spoke to that point.

If you don't care about the long term viability of the players then so be it (and possibly by extension: the long term viability of the sport), but what Boone said is what the actual issue is.

Right, but its not about whether *I* care or not about the long-term viability of the players (In fact I do - concussions scare the crap out of me. Personally, I will likely not allow my child to play tackle football because of concussion risk), I was simply pointing that out as a reason why former players like Ditka et. al. might not consider it as big of a risk. I wasn't trying to argue, just pointing that out.

 

[tshile]

Oh, I gotcha

The problem is that Mike Ditka has a well paying studio job after his career as a player and coach. I'm assuming he makes many times now what he did as a player.

Meanwhile, many other players from his time period just settled a lawsuit over the issue.

I can't help but wonder what Mike Ditka of 10 years would have thought if Mike Ditka of today needed to have someone spoon feed him mush so he doesn't die of malnutrition.

 

[SilentThreat]

This is such a dicey area. Whats more important though. Fines? Penalties?

Before I make my next point I would like to say this is not an endorsement of Meriweather.

Players in the NFL now have grown to be a part of a violent game. Endorsing something for so long, just to have a law suit come up and conveniently start changing rules is such a double standard. Is the NFL doing the right thing? I don't know. Do I agree that the league needs to be safe... ABSOLUTELY. But here's where I struggle. The NFL doesn't appear to want anything to do with player development until players are representing the shield. Colleges are the ones attacking the development of equipment to make it safer... does the NFL help support these systems. (They might be, but I sure as heck don't hear about it)

In addition to that... how about they reach out to youth/high school groups. They don't even have to payroll it completely, but be a part of it. I know for a fact that youth groups are requiring their coaches to go through concussion training.. where's the NFL there? How about they attack the group coming up so they don't have 150 penalty yards a game. This is a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR entity. They could easily employ a group to help with youth and high school coaching, teaching players the correct way to hit/tackle and avoid injuring themselves as well as others. If the NFL was to help with the refs on those levels, helping to train them, these plays could be enforced earlier, helping to prevent major injuries once players are big enough to inflict a hit that could sustain a concussion.

Maybe i'm off base here, but if you want to make a difference, some fines and penalties aren't the be all end all.

 

[tshile]

As far as I know the NFL is involved in helmet development/research, they just started regulating what kind of helmets can be worn, they used to not have any rules. And the NFL is running a 'heads up' campaign to train coaches from pee wee on up how to properly tackle and play football (with your head up - the old 'see what you hit' stuff they were teaching 20 years ago when i started playing.) I believe they offer certifications for leagues to mandate. It includes training on how to recognize symptoms of a concussion on the field.

http://usafootball.com/headsup

I don't know what else they're doing, but I know they're doing that.

 

[SilentThreat]

As far as I know the NFL is involved in helmet development/research, they just started regulating what kind of helmets can be worn, they used to not have any rules. And the NFL is running a 'heads up' campaign to train coaches from pee wee on up how to properly tackle and play football (with your head up - the old 'see what you hit' stuff they were teaching 20 years ago when i started playing.) I believe they offer certifications for leagues to mandate. It includes training on how to recognize symptoms of a concussion on the field.

http://usafootball.com/headsup

I don't know what else they're doing, but I know they're doing that.

ok, there's a start.. I knew youth coaches had to go too meetings but I wasn't aware if they were held by the NFL, guess I should do more research lol. I heard of "headsup" but wasn't sure how in depth it was.

 

[tshile]

Yeah, apparently NFL is just one of the sponsors, I see some NCAA conferences in the list too.

That doesn't really go against your point of hypocrisy by the league - there's plenty of that too

 

[Jugband McGillicuddy]

Isn't that totally besides the point though Jugs? These rule changes weren't instituted to ensure someone doesn't miss playing time or experience a career-threatening lower extremity injury. That's not to imply that players aren't concerned about those possibilities. But compared to the risk of permanent brain damage, the league is right to consider those risks as secondary considerations. There is no question that for some players, repeated concussions cause not just concussion symptoms, but depression, major neuro problems, even suicidal thoughts/impulses later in life. The Libertarian in me says that NFL players know the risks and the NFL should let them play the game. But the NFL is legally (and maybe even morally) culpable and can't ignore the risks to players. The issue of unintended effects like perhaps an increase in career- threatening lower extremity injuries is a separate issue in my opinion, not a reason to allow blows to the head to continue.

Let's not kid ourselves. The lawsuits are the ONLY reason the NFL gives half a damn about blows to the head. As has been pointed out repeatedly, their "greatest hits" videos were their top sellers; and always the highlight of the highlight shows. For DECADES, they encouraged and profited from the types of hits that are illegal now. The NFL is concerned about the financial aspect of player safety; not the player aspect. I've never been a business owner, so I won't comment further on whether or not that's the "right" approach.

FWIW, I think the head- and leg-injury issues are absolutely intertwined. If I know I'm going to lose $21k+ if I even accidentally hit a guy high, I'm going as low as possible to ensure that doesn't happen. That opens up the "knee" can of worms. And I know you've seen just as many aging NFL players, or retired guys as I have. What's their quality of life like after multiple knee surgeries? Hell, seeing Willie Roaf in NYC depressed the hell out of me. He walks without bending his legs AT ALL.

I will fully grant you that traumatic brain injuries are probably the worst you can have. Junior Seau, Dave Duerson, and so many others lived tortured existences before deciding to end it all; or passing away prematurely. That's NOT acceptable on ANY level. I'll never argue that it is. But I do believe that these fines will lead to guys targeting lower extremeties; not to injure, but to protect their own bank accounts. I know I would.

 

[tshile]

NFL PA has released and apology on behalf of Meriweather.

Meriweather isn't actually apologizing, Demaurice Smith is apologizing for him.

lol

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Former Player Launches Colossal Twitter Rant Against The NFL

(language warning - a lot of F-bombs)

 

[Lovethebeer]

And in further news....hamza abdullah is still an idiot.

Former Player Launches Colossal Twitter Rant Against The NFL

(language warning - a lot of F-bombs)