How Many Redskins Do You Take Forward?

I'd put Cooley on the trading block and see what I could get for him, I'd hang on to Jammal Brown and give him a chance to get healthy. I'd keep Fletcher, McIntosh, Banks, Hall and Carlos Rogers.

You must have missed Rogers JOGGING during the Eagles' 2nd or 3rd TD, and his subsequent benching? He completely gave up last night. Don't need players like him around, and honestly I hope he's cut today. Shanahan needs to send a message.
 
While you're cutting players, please get rid of Galloway. :hanged::rifle:
 
From an article earlier this year:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5306133

Washington will now be without its third- and fourth-round draft picks in 2011, but it will also get back a later pick from New Orleans.

Washington owes the Eagles a third- or fourth-round pick in 2011 for McNabb, based on how the quarterback plays or the team performs. If the Redskins win nine games, go to the playoffs or McNabb gets selected to the Pro Bowl, Philadelphia will receive Washington's third-round pick and New Orleans will get Washington's fourth. If none of those happen, the Eagles will get the Redskins' fourth-round pick and the Saints will get the Redskins' third-round pick.

If New Orleans receives Washington's third-round pick, then the Redskins will get a 2011 fifth-round pick back from the Saints. However, if Washington's third-round pick goes to Philadelphia, then the Saints will send a 2011 sixth- or seventh-round pick back to the Redskins.

-------------
So as I count we have our 4th going to the Eagles and our 3rd going to the Saints and we’ll get back a 5th from the Saints. We end up with 1, 2, 5, 5, 6, 7. That’s not ideal but we’ll work with what we have going forward. This is how I see it.

On offense we need:

C – Rabach is a liability regardless of how well he might call protections
G – Lichtensteiger stinks and the staff thinks he’s better than Dockery. If so Doc needs to go too.
# 1 WR – We don’t have one.
#1 RB – Ours are broken
QB to develop – ahem

So best I can figure we need five guys on offense without even considering the other side of the ball, which might be worse. I think if Brown can go into next season healthy we’re ok at OT. As some of you have mentioned I’d rather see us build the lines so if we can only have two of these guys (leaving room for defense) I’d like a WR and a G/C.

Why? Well, a lot of WRs take time to develop and we might as well get that process started. As for C/G I think it would make some of the other needs less of an emergency issue.

Defense gets a little trickier for me to figure. I can’t imagine ego letting us move away from the 3-4 after one year. So what are your thoughts on defense?
 
Thanks HF for clearing that up. I definitely feel A LOT better about that. I thought we lost a 3rd rd for McNabb, but i swear last night one of the commentators said a 2nd rd pick.
 
HF on D, I think we start with the lines. Rak can stay. If the coaching staff gets their collective heads out of their collective asses and starts to use Fat Al, he can stay. Aside from that, I don't see anyone worthy of starting, maybe providing depth, but that's it. Getting a pass rushing end in FA is next to impossible, I would think the draft is where we go for that.

LB? Well... Fletcher needs a replacement at some point, maybe we draft a project to groom? Rocky looks OK some plays and completely whiffs on others, not sure what to think of him. Replace the rest for sure.

Secondary, Hall can stay, if he stops talking so much **** that he doesn't back up. Stop getting DJax incited at the start of the game, dumb ass. Especially when on the first freaking play of the game, you provide no jam or bump at the LOS, and allow DJax to go wherever he wants, 88 yards to the house, as it turns out. Carlos can go, Moore should go. I would rank defensive priority thusly:

Line
FS
CB
LBs

As a really sad note, am I the only one who can't let a game go by without thinking about ST? He would have spied Vick well last night. Miss you, ST.
 
Yusuf06, you are correct :)

What I am suggesting in this thread is there is a core of between 8-12 players on this team that I can reasonably see as part of the solution going forward.

These guys are regular players on offense and defense. Yes, I could have included Banks but I am trying to stay for argument's sake here with players who are part of the starting 22.

These are your bread and butter guys, the ones that really determine if you are in position to contend for a Super Bowl or not.

Right now, my biggest concern is the lines.

Trent Williams and Albert Haynesworth. 2 potential playmakers out of 8 or 9 slots. You can count in Carriker if the team retains the 3-4 next season.

We need DTs badly. We have Vonnie Holliday (34) taking snaps at 280 inside at DT right now because Kemoeatu and Bryant are not there in terms of productivity and durability.

Once we fix these positions, especially the offensive line, McNabb will look a lot better, even if he is still throwing to an average at best group of receivers.

Right now our #3-#5 receivers have almost no catches on the season. Galloway has fewer catches in 9 games than Wes Welker gets in 1 game with New England.

We need a roster overhaul Part 2.

Part 1 was jettisoning the contracts of past the prime veterans last February like Smoot, Griffin, Thomas, Randle El, Todd Collins, etc.

Some of that needs to continue into the Part 2 including the release of Portis, Daniels, Heyer, Rabach, Sellers, Galloway.

It also means making some hard decisions on past draft picks and younger players we brought in that are still hiding on the inactive list week to week or on the bench. Guys that don't see the light of day at their regular positions.

Kevin Barnes, Perry Riley, etc.

We need to see what Darrel Young brings to the table for 2011 in place of Sellers.

We need to see what James Davis has to offer at RB. I don't think anyone is comfortable with the current group. We can't afford to carry Chad Simpson for 12 games while he nurses a groin pull or hammy.

We don't seem to be getting much of a push up front for the running game. How about Logan Paulsen? At 6'4 and 265 Paulsen isn't on the roster to hit the seam down the field for 40 yards. He is here to block. Well after 9 weeks of watching, he should be ready to play in at least a limited number of snaps in short yardage and goal line, where we seem to be struggling a bit.

But, even with all this about a few younger players the team does have, the simple truth is that Washington needs significant upgrades across the board.

This is not a one year re-tool as might be the case in Arizona where they need a quarterback and one or two offensive linemen but have other positions in place.
 
Casey Rabach is absolutely terrible, bro. We need an OC BADLY.

Well, i think he gets more of a bad rep than he deserves, and some of his holding penalties have been BS. I wouldn't mind though if we could repalce him, but it's a lot harder replacing C than the other O line positions because of having the responsibility of making blocking calls for the entire OL.
 
I think it may be time to consider the trade of Fred Davis or dare I say even Chris Cooley. I watched them insert Logan Paulsen a few times over the season in games I have attended and watched him blow a couple of LB's up. Last night he did it again. The kid has some play in him.
 
You must have missed Rogers JOGGING during the Eagles' 2nd or 3rd TD, and his subsequent benching? He completely gave up last night. Don't need players like him around, and honestly I hope he's cut today. Shanahan needs to send a message.

He wasn't benched. He tweaked his hamstring and the coaches held him out because we were down by so much in the 4th and it wasn't worth risking further injury.
 
The Redskins need to upgrade at corner. I realize with the other needs on this team on the OL and DL and at WR/RB that we may be stuck with Hall and/or Rogers for some time to come, but the truth is that Hall can't cover in man and Rogers can't make a play on the ball even when it hits him in the chest.

Carlos Rogers could have WON at least 3-4 games for the Redskins in the past few years if he had simply been able to hang onto balls that were thrown into his hands.

The concerning part about the secondary is there really is no depth.

Phillip Buchanon is close to done at 30. I don't know what happened to him but he is a shell of the player he was 5 years ago. Kevin Barnes and Byron Westbrook are strictly special teamers, neither seems to have natural cover skills.

So, once again thanks most immediately to Cerrato, there is absolutely no depth off the bench at this position either.
 
Yusuf06, you are correct :)

What I am suggesting in this thread is there is a core of between 8-12 players on this team that I can reasonably see as part of the solution going forward.

These guys are regular players on offense and defense. Yes, I could have included Banks but I am trying to stay for argument's sake here with players who are part of the starting 22.

These are your bread and butter guys, the ones that really determine if you are in position to contend for a Super Bowl or not.

Right now, my biggest concern is the lines...

...But, even with all this about a few younger players the team does have, the simple truth is that Washington needs significant upgrades across the board.

This is not a one year re-tool as might be the case in Arizona where they need a quarterback and one or two offensive linemen but have other positions in place.
Since you clarified your comments, I'll retract my prior statement.

I agree with you about upgrading our lines. I said in another post several weeks ago that our top priorities this offseason should be C and NT. IMHO fixing those two spots would provide the synergistic effect that I mentioned earlier. Replacing Rabach would fix the issue of McNabb getting immediate pressure up the middle, and a legit NT would make the LBs look way, way better. Think about how ordinary Stabby Lewis and the rest of Baltimore's defense looked before they drafted Haloti Ngata.

It's clear that the cupboard is incredibly bare at multiple spots on both sides of the ball. As many of us ranted about during the ES years, Snyderatto's strategy of trading picks for players failed miserably. Sure the cap implications could be managed but the loss of depth can't. This problem has been exacerbated by the switch to new systems on both sides of the ball.

What I'd hate to see though is the "blowing it up" solution espoused by many. Teams coming off a SB or a long run of success can afford to blow things up. Teams that have been mediocre for a decade (sadly, like ours) can't afford it. We simply don't have the raw numbers of core players, depth or reserve of fan goodwill to rely on to carry us through such a project. In essence, we've been working with a "blown up" team for a decade without adding enough talented players to get over the hump to being truly competitive. Therefore, I think the real fix is to improve our personnel evaluation/management.

I mentioned earlier that I've been thinking about this issue for a while and have been planning a longer post about it...perhaps even as an inuagural blog post. I promise you all, (or perhaps it's a threat :D ) I will eventually get around to it. In a nutshell, I plan to discuss the corrosive effect short-term thinking can have and my opinions of the best steps we can take to move the team forward.
 
What I'd hate to see though is the "blowing it up" solution espoused by many. Teams coming off a SB or a long run of success can afford to blow things up. Teams that have been mediocre for a decade (sadly, like ours) can't afford it. We simply don't have the raw numbers of core players, depth or reserve of fan goodwill to rely on to carry us through such a project. In essence, we've been working with a "blown up" team for a decade without adding enough talented players to get over the hump to being truly competitive. Therefore, I think the real fix is to improve our personnel evaluation/management.

Personnel evaluation/management has to be fixed first no matter which course they decide to take. Getting rid of Vinny was a start. It remains to be seen whether they can resist trading away draft picks, as having so few makes all the "misses" that much more significant.

I disagree however that we've been working with a "blown up" team for a decade. We've been working with a team that's "a couple of players away" for a decade now. The problem is the players we've gotten to get us over the hump either don't perform, or other players fall off so that we've never gotten over the hump. Combine that with the coaching carousel and poor player evaluation/management and you've got what we've seen.

I think fans would tolerate blowing up the team if they felt progress was being made. Just ask Henry. But if you were going to do that it would've made more sense to do that from the beginning of the Shanahan/Allen era. The acquisitions of the various veteran players and overall age of this team indicate that wasn't the plan. So we're stuck on the treadmill.
 
I think the core players being tossed around in here is a little generous. Maybe I am just pessimistic today, but I really do not see a solid group of guys on either side of the ball.

The few guys I would definitely keep are:

Trent Williams
Anthony Armstrong
Fred Davis
Ryan Torain
Brandon Banks
Graham Gano
Brian Orakpo
Adam Carriker
Lorenzo Alexander
Laron Landry (I wish we could change his attitude. He is punk and I am not into his personality. In fact, he is almost tradeable to me. If we could get a guy that was smart and a solid tackler, I would take him. He is a borderline embarrasment to this team.)

Guys I think are tradeable.

Andre Carter (low pick obviously, should have done it prior to this season. The fans knew it, why didn't the management?)

Albert Haynesworth (He is a part time player on our team. He is a waste. I would keep him if he played on run downs, but he just cannot avoid pushing up field. I guess his mind is deformed and tells his body to only move forward. Unfotunate disease for a NT.)

Donovan McNabb (Hindsight is 20/20. We should have looked elsewhere. I think he is a great QB, but we really need to take this thing in a different direction. Also, I would like to have a QB that can throw a slant accurately. Something McNabb has never been able to do, thus our problem adapting to poor o-line play. Along with poor recievers of course.)

Deangelo Hall (Never liked this guy in Atlanta or Oakland. He came here and was solid for half a season, got a large contract, but he is a mediocre CB. I really do not know if we could trade him for anything of value. We will obviously keep him for the immediate future, I just don't know what he does for this team.)

Chris Cooley (Everyone's favorite, but I see this guy taking a nose dive really soon. His hands have not been reliable this year and he is not that great of a blocker. The Patriots do a great job at getting rid of guys at the correct moment. I think this may be CC47's moment.)

Who do we replace these guys with? Young hungry players off the street and draft picks I suppose. This team is so full of holes, it is just pathetic. I think it is going to be years before we are relevant, so why not get started on the rebuilding process?
 
My list:

Offense:

McNabb
Trent Williams
Chris Cooley
Fred Davis
Anthony Armstrong (as a #3 receiver)
Ryan Torain (as a backup TB)

Defense:

Carriker
Haynesworth
Orakpo
Alexander
Landry
Moore

That's 12 players.

Seems there's a talent deficit in town.
Agree with this list, although I would trade Cooley and Haynesworth. One will no longer be in his prime when we finally have a team around him that can win, and the other has a terrible attitude and would yield a good draft pick we could use to take young talent.

We should keep McIntosh. He is strong. Doughty is a great special teams player. I would also keep Kelly, however I would not depend on his presence.
 
What I'd hope we could do with Haynesworth is use him and a later pick to move up into the 2nd round. It's not much but we need everything we can get at this point. Dock is another guy that can play, he's just in a system now that doesn't fit him. I'd hope we could get a mid rounder for him, say a 5th.

As for Hall, he'd look a lot better with a legit shutdown corner on the other side. If we had a player like that, opposing QBs would essentially have to pick their poison and he'd get even more INTs than he has. No he can't cover but having the ability to get picks sort of offsets that IMHO. As we've seen this season, takeaways are huge. That's about the only thing that has kept us around .500.

What's really too bad is that we can't squeeze Hall and Rogers into one player that could cover and intercept the ball when it comes his way. :)
 
With all respect, if you wouldn't keep Fletcher, you're certifiable. I don't care HOW old he is.


couldnt agree more, unless you can replace him with a younger guy who at least comes close to quality of play you dont cut for the sake of cutting, we already have so many holes to fill, we need to prioritise who we let go first.

who we keep would be predicated on who we can get, im not cutting one old washed up guy to add another newer old washed up guy.
 
One player I feel we need to keep is Lorenzo Alexander. He plays his heart out, plus look at all the positions he can play.

The guy is currently playing OLB, but has played DL and OL. Alexander is one of our best special teams players.

Nevermind....my bad. I just saw Alexander in Bulldog's original post. Time to go home and have some wine.
 
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