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Haynesworth Traded!!!

Loss Vegas

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Question for you Om: Do you consider any of the great HOF coaches out there "geniuses" as all of them did their best work with a single franchise QB? This is going to sound seriously homerish but if I am getting your definition correct, Gibbs is the only one who earned the title as he is the only one to win the Big One with more than one QB and none of them a top of the heap franchise guy.

Not arguing with you. I'm just curious.
 

Om

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In what I consider the modern era, the only HOF-level head coaches I can think of that won titles with more than 1 QB are Gibbs, Parcells and Vermeil. It's a damn short list, though, even if I've missed one, that's for sure.

This is NOT to say Halas, Lombardi, Walsh, Shula, etc. were NOT great coaches. Clearly they were. Would they have been AS great w/o all-time QB's at the helm? My gut says no. Others disagree.

What Gibbs did is absolutely unprecedented in NFL history--if I'm wrong, someone please feel free to point it out. Gibbs won not two, but THREE titles, over a span of 10 seasons, behind three QB's that will be on no one's serious HOF radar.

I've shied away from trumpeting that too much though for the same reason you not, brother Bob. Hard for a Skins fan to get away with making that case w/o being dismissed as a slobbering homer fanboy. :cool:
 

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Om, by titles, you mean Conference titles? Because Vermeil only won one Super Bowl.
 

Om

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Yes, I meant that.

'twas not a scientific survey, I will admit. ;)
 

Henry

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Yes, I meant that.

'twas not a scientific survey, I will admit. ;)
I think you meant Seifert, not Vermeil.

Though he may not be a HOF-level coach. Say what you want about Gibbs II, Seifert II totally **** the bed. :)
 

Om

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Nah, Seifert gets credit for timing. And wearing cool left coast shades.

Beyond that ...
 

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To be fair, El, several guys have won more than one Conference Title with different QBs.

Cowher did it with the Steelers
Shula did it with the Colts and Dolphins
Vermeil did it with the Eagles and Rams
Parcells with the Giants and Pats
Holmgren with the Packers and Seahawks

Those are the ones that come to mind quick. There might be more.

Gibbs and Parcells stand alone as having won all the marbles with more than on QB (I had forgotten Parcells, to be honest).
 

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wow I cant beleive we got a 5th and people are HAPPY about that? lol thats some seriously amusing stuff, anyone who doesnt think the Patsies just rolled us over and didnt use lube really isnt paying attention.

for one thing, they dont actually run a 3-4, they run a variable front defence, they are one of the very few teams who run an actual hybrid defence, I would imagine AH will be taking over the spot that Richard Seymour filled until he was traded to the raiduhs. I have a feeling that NE will not only get the best out of Alberta, but that as usual we will look remarkably stupid for getting only a 5th and not some sort of pick based on his performance.

as for Belichick, he is a genius, and it has nothing to do with Brady, He is a DC not an OC. if you look at his defences, he has made chicken salad with chicken sh&%T I dont think aside from an aging Milloy he has ever had much to work with in his secondaries yet his defences always play decently to very well.throughout his career, his genius lies in his ability to fit his system to his players and to find veterans who are on the downside but who fill roles exceedingly well in his systems. Look at some of the guys who he picked up when they were "done" who went on to at least afew more years or high level play.

willie mginest
Junior Seau
Mike Vrabel

then you factor in that he does know offence as well and he finds vets to fill roles on offence, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, that reciever whose name escapes me who plays db (brown?) anyway, yeah he has had Brady (a low round pick who nobody expected to be that good btw) but he has also done a hell of a job putting together a team around him.
 

Lanky Livingston

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We had no leverage with a Haynesworth trade - a 5th round pick is more than I ever thought they'd get for him. Yes, I'm elated. If you thought they could get more for him, then obviously YOU haven't been paying attention.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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actually I would have preferred us to have actually run a defence that fit, however failing that, trading him somewhere he has a shot at a superbowl and getting almost nothing for him? brutal. at the least have an incentive trade, ie if he starts more than 75% then we get a 4, if makes the probowl we get a 3 etc etc
 

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Well, let's see the Tennessee Titans were offering a #4 round pick in the last draft for Haynesworth. The Redskins ended up trading him for a #5 pick.

The compensation is a bit less but not significant enought to jump off a bridge over :)

What is unacceptable is the effect keeping Haynesworth had on the 2010 season and the difficulties this team had in coming together.

Shanahan should never have put the organization through that kind of endurance contest.

Let's face it, the way to prevent disruptive players from dictating to the team how they are going to play and when is to not give potentially disruptive players outsize contracts that make them all but invulnerable to criticism or team actions.

What this is is a lesson that the Vinny Cerrato/Dan Snyder method of operating in 2009 and in spots between Marty and Shanahan were ANATHEMA to developing a winning culture.

The fact Cerrato does not realize that even to this day shows how hopeless he really is.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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Heres the thing, this will be an almost entirely new team by the time we have a shot at winning some games, but I actually still think that at the time, grabbing AH was the right thing to do, we needed a dominating presence inside and at the time we were one OLB and a FS away from being a top 5 defence. Thats the bottom line. was AH a headcase? yes and we knew that when we signed him and promised him the house, but now, whats done is done, and these next 2 years will be the test, if we continue to be horrible to sub par on defence, then we know Shannahan was wrong, if we actually show tangible improvement, then we can say he was brilliant.
 

Om

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Kind of a copout, that, isn't it, Ryman? You can always use 20/20 hindsight to decide if a move was "wrong" or "brilliant." The key is to assess the move fairly within the context it was made ... before the million other variable that end up affecting the eventual outcome come into play.

Shanahan's decision to go 3-4 was made in the broad context of what he believes is the best approach to winning a championship with this team. He clearly understood there would be transitional growing pains. He is one season into the process.

It's easy to look at it and say "he didn't have the personnel to run the 3-4." True. He did not. Truth is also that he didn't have the personnel to run a contending-level 4-3 either. The D here skated by on stats...rankings. It failed utterly on gamedays in crunch time with it's inability to pressure the passer and come up with turnovers and game-changing plays.

Shanahan set out to break the treading-water cycle the D here was in for so long and shake things up in order to play the kind of attacking D he (and many others) believe is the key to winning big in the NFL today. Frankly I think it was a bold as hell move. He KNEW he'd come into criticism from ... well ... guys like you. :)

I say power to him. The status quo was unaccepable. He set out to do something bold and is committed to doing it. I LIKE that in a new head coach coming to a team that hasn't won **** in 20 years.
 

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Shanny was bought in to do a job, and he MUST be able to do that job as HE sees fit, without outside inference. Last year seemed like it was an audition; this year is time to do something about it.

He knows what he wants and is doing his darnedest to get it.
 

Rymanofthenorth

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Kind of a copout, that, isn't it, Ryman? You can always use 20/20 hindsight to decide if a move was "wrong" or "brilliant." The key is to assess the move fairly within the context it was made ... before the million other variable that end up affecting the eventual outcome come into play.

Shanahan's decision to go 3-4 was made in the broad context of what he believes is the best approach to winning a championship with this team. He clearly understood there would be transitional growing pains. He is one season into the process.

It's easy to look at it and say "he didn't have the personnel to run the 3-4." True. He did not. Truth is also that he didn't have the personnel to run a contending-level 4-3 either. The D here skated by on stats...rankings. It failed utterly on gamedays in crunch time with it's inability to pressure the passer and come up with turnovers and game-changing plays.

Shanahan set out to break the treading-water cycle the D here was in for so long and shake things up in order to play the kind of attacking D he (and many others) believe is the key to winning big in the NFL today. Frankly I think it was a bold as hell move. He KNEW he'd come into criticism from ... well ... guys like you. :)

I say power to him. The status quo was unaccepable. He set out to do something bold and is committed to doing it. I LIKE that in a new head coach coming to a team that hasn't won **** in 20 years.

its not a cop out at all, he took a decent defence that was 2 players short of being a contending defence and blew it up for his vision, you can couch it how you want with semantics but thats what he did. if we arent contending in 2 years it was an epic fail, its that simple, because had he simply revamped the offence, we would be contending this season or the next, as much as you guys love to bash the old defence, it was the only thing that even kept us in games, we had no offence for the past couple years.

was it bold? yes, was it worth it? we will know by the beginning of next season, and frankly 3 seasons to turn around a team in todays NFL is an eternity, given the worst to first type seasons some teams have been able to pull off. You could argue that we used to mortgage the future and still got nothing, I wouldnt argue that, but there is no spin doctor on earth that can sell this defensive change in the context of this team rebuilding, unless of course you are willing to admit that Shanny was pretty much throwing games to get better picks to build with lol.
 

Om

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its not a cop out at all, he took a decent defence that was 2 players short of being a contending defence and blew it up for his vision, you can couch it how you want with semantics but thats what he did. if we arent contending in 2 years it was an epic fail, its that simple, because had he simply revamped the offence, we would be contending this season or the next, as much as you guys love to bash the old defence, it was the only thing that even kept us in games, we had no offence for the past couple years.

was it bold? yes, was it worth it? we will know by the beginning of next season, and frankly 3 seasons to turn around a team in todays NFL is an eternity, given the worst to first type seasons some teams have been able to pull off. You could argue that we used to mortgage the future and still got nothing, I wouldnt argue that, but there is no spin doctor on earth that can sell this defensive change in the context of this team rebuilding, unless of course you are willing to admit that Shanny was pretty much throwing games to get better picks to build with lol.
The bolded part is where we part, my friend. You state that as fact when it is, at best, conjecture.

As to the 2nd paragraph ....not sure where to start. There's about five different loooong discussion in there that we probably don't wanna have today. Too much real stuff going on. :)
 

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So when does Albert get his physical?
Hmmmm, good question. Anyone know? Maybe it is tonight after 6pm EDT. Of course, two tectonic plates will need to be adjusted in New England prior to his arrival. It's not a big deal - the same thing had to be done for Rob Ryan in North Texas.

Seriously though, this is important. He needs to pass the physical.
 

fansince62

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The bolded part is where we part, my friend. You state that as fact when it is, at best, conjecture.

As to the 2nd paragraph ....not sure where to start. There's about five different loooong discussion in there that we probably don't wanna have today. Too much real stuff going on. :)

as to the gist of your argument....while I lean in your direction....here's the problem: how much of what we saw was a consequence of talent level and how much a product of Blache's philosophy? the D under Williams had moments where both came together and it was quite good.
 

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Is it wrong that every time I log on and see this headline, it brings a smile to my face? My buddy from Boston is a die hard Pats fan, and he was gloating, telling me we got nothing in return. I had to tell him the joke is on him, because neither did they lol. We can do something with a draft pick, you can't do anything with an overgrown baby that refuses to work.

I vote we sticky this thread, just so we can always see it :laugh:
 

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