Haynesworth inactive

[Rymanofthenorth]

LOL Mike, you missed my point entirely. I am not questioning your knowledge per se, im questioning the context.

My point wasnt "i was an athete so i know more than you"

My point was that at different levels, coaches treat players differently. in the pros they will tell you to do things that are bad for you. such as my examples and also " take this shot, you may lose 3 years off your career but you can play and contribute NOW."

someone who played until the high school level will have a very different idea than someone who played pro even for a short while. not more knowledge just different knowledge.

 

[Henry]

I save most of my ire for the Redskins in this situation, but Haynesworth does not deserve such a stringent defense. I have rarely seen such a display of unprofessionalism as I've seen from 92 this season.

 

[fansince62]

do you even know what the UMCJ is for? dont call me a liar without having proof. You know nothing about me and know nothing about how I was raised or conduct myself.

and no need to yell fansince, I can read without the caps lock blazing. im just going to ignore the idiot part and hope you can calm down a little. we are all on the same side here.

Mike

the idiot part wasn't directed at you....it was directed at those who believe blindly following every order is how things work. it obviously isn't.

liar? where is that coming from? the point was that you don't just follow every order you are given - not even in the Navy.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you are an upstanding guy and a benefit to the commnuity you support.

anywho.....just to be clear...I'm glad as H there are people like you serving in the Navy.....principled, thoughtful sorts. your love for the Skins shines through as well and fortifies you better than some others of us ....I have been arguiing with Lanky's strawman which was positioned to exonerate Shanahan. You got in the way of the swinging door. apologies if you actually believed I called you out as a liar or questioned your integrity.

 

[fansince62]

I save most of my ire for the Redskins in this situation, but Haynesworth does not deserve such a stringent defense. I have rarely seen such a display of unprofessionalism as I've seen from 92 this season.

I've seen worse Henry. brandon marshall? TO? Moss? but I agree that he did not cover himself with glory. hopefully, we'll find a way to reconstruct the d-line so it's at least Pop Warner league ability-wise over the next 2-3 years (and can then view AH as a bad memory). my beef is that Shanahan mishandled and escalated precisely what should have been avoided: an ongoing drama that detracted from the franchise and the play on then field. it's last year and 18 years of Redskin prime time soap opera all over. DEJA PUGH!

 

[Ax]

my beef is that Shanahan mishandled and escalated precisely what should have been avoided: an ongoing drama that detracted from the franchise and the play on then field.

This.

It doesn't mean I think Albert hasn't been a major ass, but "mishandled and escalated" is exactly what I believe Shanny did.

 

[Sarge]

Sorry, I guess it'st eh military in me, but I'm faling in on the side of "You're my bitch and you're gonna do what I say"

That's not to say Shanny may not be psycho. That has yet to be detirmined. But he's the coach. If he tells yo to squat and take a ****, you squat and take a ****. Fat Al has already admitted that he doesn't know the D that well and flat out said he wasn't going to play in certain situations.

I'm sorry, but I just paid you an ass load of money. Do what you are told

We have an old saying in the military. "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it"

Actually, it kinda reminds me of Marty having everyone do the Oklahoma drill.

 

[Miles Monroe]

have you ever managed a large group of people with diverse skills, backgrounds, cultures and abilities? leadership is much more subtle than "go do it".

I guess the "if your boss tells you to jump off a cliff" response doesn't fit here either.

I know this post wasn't directed at me, but I have to jump in here.

I have managed groups of the type you speak of. I've run service departments for a few very large auto dealerships. The largest had 50 + service people, the smallest, 35. You'll not likely find a more diverse group then a group of auto techs, and let me tell you, techs are often prim a donas.

In all cases, there was little subtlety involved. I identified the skill sets of each and every worker, in each class of service person from prep to "A" technicians. Every person had their strong points, and once identified, it was easy to get them to produce.

I was brought up with the mind set that if you're 10 minutes early, you're on time. At three minutes before start time, I would make the normal announcement to break up the BS sessions.... "hit it ladies, asses and elbows." While my workers were always allowed to question why they were doing something, they new not to question doing it or not. They knew I would never ask them to do something unethical, or illegal, and if they hedged on what they were told to do, they knew there was somebody waiting in the wings to replace them. You did what you were told, period... the end.

I ran service for Pontiac / Fiat, Chevy / Geo, and Honda. All the shops were productive and profitable. I also ran a number of small independent shops that have thrived.

Tell me why running a football team is any different ?

 

[Boone]

It's one thing to argue that Pro Players are naturally going to be more independent and vocal than high school or college athletes. They are grown men, and that is to be expected. But they are not on equal footing with coaches and the folks writing their checks. Despite the attention, fame, star treatment, and money, they are still employees. It's also one thing to say Shanahan and Company mishandled the AH situation. I think that's a fair assessment. But that's not the same thing as 'causing' the situation.

Only one party 'caused' this situation - an over-paid, unmotivated, selfish player named Albert Haynesworth. Listening to your coaching staff and at least trying to do what you are asked to do is a basic expectation. You sign the contract, you take the gig, you take the good with the bad. You do what you're asked to do and you try to make the best of it even if it turns out not to have been the greatest decision. We all have to do those things every damn day of our life, and for a lot less than the millions this guy makes.

All the hostility towards Shanahan, Snyder, and the front office may have some basis in reality, but latching onto the treatment of Haynesworth as if he's some poor victim of the Evil Empire - well, it just sounds silly to me. Haynesworth stubbornly and immaturely painted himself into a corner. The Redskins may have shot themselves in the foot and made the situation worse. But it was Haynesworth who created this drama, and kept it going all season long.

I said 2 months ago the Redskins should cut their losses and trade or even release him and was mocked for even suggesting we'd be better off. In retrospect, I was right.

Ryman is also right that getting nothing on the field or even in return for Haynesworth is a monumental waste and a huge failure for the Redskins. But that's not necessarily an argument to keep him around and have him continue to be a life-sucking drag on this team.

 

[Jimbo]

It's one thing to argue that Pro Players are naturally going to be more independent and vocal than high school or college athletes. They are grown men, and that is to be expected. But they are not on equal footing with coaches and the folks writing their checks. Despite the attention, fame, star treatment, and money, they are still employees. It's also one thing to say Shanahan and Company mishandled the AH situation. I think that's a fair assessment. But that's not the same thing as 'causing' the situation.

Only one party 'caused' this situation - an over-paid, unmotivated, selfish player named Albert Haynesworth. Listening to your coaching staff and at least trying to do what you are asked to do is a basic expectation. You sign the contract, you take the gig, you take the good with the bad. You do what you're asked to do and you try to make the best of it even if it turns out not to have been the greatest decision. We all have to do those things every damn day of our life, and for a lot less than the millions this guy makes.

All the hostility towards Shanahan, Snyder, and the front office may have some basis in reality, but latching onto the treatment of Haynesworth as if he's some poor victim of the Evil Empire - well, it just sounds silly to me. Haynesworth stubbornly and immaturely painted himself into a corner. The Redskins may have shot themselves in the foot and made the situation worse. But it was Haynesworth who created this drama, and kept it going all season long.

I said 2 months ago the Redskins should cut their losses and trade or even release him and was mocked for even suggesting we'd be better off. In retrospect, I was right.

Ryman is also right that getting nothing on the field or even in return for Haynesworth is a monumental waste and a huge failure for the Redskins. But that's not necessarily an argument to keep him around and have him continue to be a life-sucking drag on this team.

Couldn't have stated it better myself, John. This is exactly how I feel. Although Shanahan handled it poorly, Al is to blame for the whole mess. He could EASILY have gotten that $21 million from another team AND been able to play in a 4-3. I'm just glad it's over for the most part.....unless the NFLPA jumps in and cries foul. I'm hoping they won't since it could affect a new CBA.

 

[Neophyte]

While I see where you are coming from, Boone, I'm am still thinking Shanahan started it.

Anyone paying attention to pro ball last off season knew Haynesworth wasn't interested in the 3-4 and especially playing NT in a 3-4. He and his agent both said it by saying that teams paying the 3-4 were not an option for him in FA. Period. He was very clear about it.

Nearly the first thing Shanahan said when hired was he was looking for a DC to run a 3-4 and Haynesworth was his first choice for NT. And to the best of my knowledge he said it all to the press. First. Did not even give Al a heads up about a position change that I'm pretty sure even the Dalai Lama knew the player wasn't interested in. Why go out of your way to rub a guy's nose in it like that before you have even met him? Seems to me Shanahan was trying to make a point. His was bigger.

I don't have a lot of use for a guy like that. Granted, Al has not even come close to handling himself in a professional manner since and so bares blame for the on going feud. There is more than enough responsibility to go around for this one.

But Mike didn't have to do that right out of the gate.

 

[Boone]

I guess Shanahan was under the mistaken impression that he was the head coach of a pro football team, and that individual players preferences weren't his first priority in trying to right a 4-12 team?

I'm not defending Shanahan - I'm really not. I'm defending his right as a new head coach to deal with problem players as he sees fit. The whole fitness test thing was ridiculous. If the guys reports so out of shape that he can't hang, don't play him. Humiliating him didn't help the situation. And as I've said, if you think the guy is such a big head case that you have to play those kinds of games with him, you probably should've just bitten the bullet and addressed the issue once and for all before the season got going.

None of that changes a thing though. All Haynesworth ever had to do was shut up, suit up, and show he was worth even a fraction of the money he was being paid. He wasn't hired to coach, to spout his opinion, to challenge his employer's decision-making at every turn, pout, or throw tantrums.

There is no question that Shanahan mismanaged the whole situation. He made it worse, not better. If he was determined to force the issue, he should have done it right away and gone all the way at the first sign that Haynesworth was going to buck the coaches. That's all on him.

Haynesworth could've fixed this at any point from the beginning. The onus was on him to do what his employers (right or wrong) asked of him. He has steadfastly refused to do it. That his employers looked like keystone cops in the process is only a contributing factor.

Bottom line...I'm glad it seems to be over. We have 10 problems bigger than this to deal with and thats without thinking hard about the list.

 

[Jimbo]

Haynesworth was already in place making HUGE bucks. If you take over a team and want to install a 3-4, why would you feel the need to ask a guy under contract if he's OK with playing whatever position you might want him to? This is akin to Deion Sanders complaining he wasn't notified/consulted about Ray Rhodes' departure and deciding he didn't want to play with the Skins anymore as a result.

It's about ONE guy being selfish and worrying more about his place in NFL history than about wins and losses and being part of a team. As I said, Shanahan didn't handle the situation very well but I think the blame has to fall on Haynesworth.

 

[Neophyte]

And I agree. Shanahan is the head coach and Al needs to get that figured out. My point is the day Shanahan was hired Al was not a problem. Shanahan made him one. He was the only guy on the defensive side of the ball I remember Shanahan talking about and nearly the first thing he talked about was moving him to a position Mike had to know would upset Haynesworth.

He was much more diplomatic in his talk about both Portis and Campbell with the press. Why not try that with Al first? It is like he wanted the fight from day 1.

Look, at the end of the day, the Head Coach is the Head Coach. No arguing that. Part of getting the big chair though is knowing how to manage men and in the case of the NFL, manage men with very deep pockets who didn't grow up with those deep pockets and now have more than they ever dreamed of having.

And as if starting a pissing match he couldn't win outright wasn't bad enough, Shanahan had to do it publicly. I have never met Haynesworth and I knew it was a bad move. I have never managed a multi-millionaire pro athlete and knew there was no way Haynesworth could or would back down from that, not once it was public. I am not the genius Mike Shanahan is supposed to be and yet I saw it coming.

We bitch about paying Haynesworth nearly $40 million over the last two years to lay on the ground and watch Mike Vick run it on us for a TD. Guess what? We have paid Mike Shanahan $7 million this year to piss off Albert Haynesworth because it seems to me that is the only thing he set out to do from Day 1 that he has actually accomplished and if I were his boss I would be as mad at him as he is at Al.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

And I agree. Shanahan is the head coach and Al needs to get that figured out. My point is the day Shanahan was hired Al was not a problem. Shanahan made him one. He was the only guy on the defensive side of the ball I remember Shanahan talking about and nearly the first thing he talked about was moving him to a position Mike had to know would upset Haynesworth.

He was much more diplomatic in his talk about both Portis and Campbell with the press. Why not try that with Al first? It is like he wanted the fight from day 1.

Look, at the end of the day, the Head Coach is the Head Coach. No arguing that. Part of getting the big chair though is knowing how to manage men and in the case of the NFL, manage men with very deep pockets who didn't grow up with those deep pockets and now have more than they ever dreamed of having.

And as if starting a pissing match he couldn't win outright wasn't bad enough, Shanahan had to do it publicly. I have never met Haynesworth and I knew it was a bad move. I have never managed a multi-millionaire pro athlete and knew there was no way Haynesworth could or would back down from that, not once it was public. I am not the genius Mike Shanahan is supposed to be and yet I saw it coming.

We bitch about paying Haynesworth nearly $40 million over the last two years to lay on the ground and watch Mike Vick run it on us for a TD. Guess what? We have paid Mike Shanahan $7 million this year to piss off Albert Haynesworth because it seems to me that is the only thing he set out to do from Day 1 that he has actually accomplished and if I were his boss I would be as mad at him as he is at Al.

exactly. what was overlooked in all this by most fans was that shannahan went into this spoiling for a fight, the whole 3-4 mess, the not even talking to albert before beaking off in the press? to my mind the fact that he stuck out this 3-4 even after it became obvious it was hurting the team is an indictment against his style.

what people forget is that coaches come and go, franchise type players not so much, and frankly if this offence is not immensely improved next season then I say get mikes ass out of here, he would have had two seasons to fix the offence, no excuses.

 

[The Burgundy Ghost]

exactly. what was overlooked in all this by most fans was that shannahan went into this spoiling for a fight, the whole 3-4 mess, the not even talking to albert before beaking off in the press? to my mind the fact that he stuck out this 3-4 even after it became obvious it was hurting the team is an indictment against his style.

what people forget is that coaches come and go, franchise type players not so much, and frankly if this offence is not immensely improved next season then I say get mikes ass out of here, he would have had two seasons to fix the offence, no excuses.

Haynesworth isn't a franchise player. He's a great player when he wants to be, but franchise.....no. Put him up against franchise players on other teams, he doesn't fit the bill. Perfect example.....the guy he was claiming to be Reggie White. Big Al is no Reggie White, not even close.

Also, you have to put blame on Haynesworth when it comes to running the 3-4. He stuck up his nose at the mere mention of playing in the scheme. Never met with his coaches to discuss scheme, never met with Haslett to find out what they planned on doing with him at NT or DE. Had they worked out a compromise and ran something similar to what Dallas does with Jay Ratliff, Haynesworth probably would be leading the league in sacks at his position and dominating.

You're right about Shanahan...he has provoked and antagonized the situation but to make Haynesworth out like some saint in this whole mess Ryman doesn't cut it. He's made a bunch of mistakes during this whole debacle.

 

[Goaldeje]

Man, I spent the day in the car for work, and lok what I miss! Sheesh. Last time I take work seriously...

I don't understand the polarity on this issue. This is a cluster**** of a situation, and there is MORE than enough blame to go around. To the Fat Al defenders, you can not honestly believe he has no culpability in this, can you? Al, I think I read somewhere you argued that I as an employee should not have to always do what my boss tells me? Really? I thought you had a military background, and if that is the case in the military, things are different from my understanding. On that level, there really is no argument. Al is an employee of Daniel Snyder. Dan has conferred power to Mike Shanahan, therefore, Al needs to do what is asked of him. All the counter arguments in the world about the scheme are irrelevant. Fat Al signed a contract to play football for the Washington Redskins, at their discretion. Unless there is a clause in his contract that says he will never play in the 3-4 or whatever, his job is to play. As has been stated before, Shanny isn't asking him to do anything amoral or illegal. Fat Al has plenty of blame.

But Shanahan royally screwed the pooch on this one too. I manage a team of photographers and have disagreements with them all the time. They don't like my decisions from time to time, so they come to me with their perspective and I reevaluate, sometimes changing course, sometimes not. There are times when you have to put your foot down and let someone know in no uncertain terms they need to do what you have just told them to do, but there are other times changing your mind can be appropriate. You know what you shouldn't do? Go to the press. Or your peers. Or anyone outside of your organization, really. Shanahan's managerial "style" is evidently to be a bit of a bully, and that scares me. If his track record with draft picks was awesome, I guess it wouldn't matter that much, but this will affect free agents for us. Plenty of blame can go to Shanahan, and should.

I think we can lastly all agree Vinny and Dan get a whole heapin' helpin' of blame too, as WD posted above me. In fact, I'm surprised that most of the vitriol has been directed at Shanny and/or Fat Al. Vinny is a moron and this move exemplifies why we are currently the laughingstock of the league.

Oh, I suppose you could also blame Brunell.

 

[Ax]

I think we can lastly all agree Vinny and Dan get a whole heapin' helpin' of blame too, as WD posted above me.

While this is true, it's a dead horse. The current situation is after the fact. While it's a shame that Shanallen has to clean up the mess they inherited, it's what they are paid to do. Just like AH was paid to play football. And their handling of this is solely on them, not Snyder.

Oh, I suppose you could also blame Brunell.

Ah, no doubt. Scott's fingerprints are all over this.

 

[fansince62]

Man, I spent the day in the car for work, and lok what I miss! Sheesh. Last time I take work seriously...

I don't understand the polarity on this issue. This is a cluster**** of a situation, and there is MORE than enough blame to go around. To the Fat Al defenders, you can not honestly believe he has no culpability in this, can you? Al, I think I read somewhere you argued that I as an employee should not have to always do what my boss tells me? Really? I thought you had a military background, and if that is the case in the military, things are different from my understanding. On that level, there really is no argument. Al is an employee of Daniel Snyder. Dan has conferred power to Mike Shanahan, therefore, Al needs to do what is asked of him. All the counter arguments in the world about the scheme are irrelevant. Fat Al signed a contract to play football for the Washington Redskins, at their discretion. Unless there is a clause in his contract that says he will never play in the 3-4 or whatever, his job is to play. As has been stated before, Shanny isn't asking him to do anything amoral or illegal. Fat Al has plenty of blame.

But Shanahan royally screwed the pooch on this one too. I manage a team of photographers and have disagreements with them all the time. They don't like my decisions from time to time, so they come to me with their perspective and I reevaluate, sometimes changing course, sometimes not. There are times when you have to put your foot down and let someone know in no uncertain terms they need to do what you have just told them to do, but there are other times changing your mind can be appropriate. You know what you shouldn't do? Go to the press. Or your peers. Or anyone outside of your organization, really. Shanahan's managerial "style" is evidently to be a bit of a bully, and that scares me. If his track record with draft picks was awesome, I guess it wouldn't matter that much, but this will affect free agents for us. Plenty of blame can go to Shanahan, and should.

I think we can lastly all agree Vinny and Dan get a whole heapin' helpin' of blame too, as WD posted above me. In fact, I'm surprised that most of the vitriol has been directed at Shanny and/or Fat Al. Vinny is a moron and this move exemplifies why we are currently the laughingstock of the league.

Oh, I suppose you could also blame Brunell.

Goaldie...you're mis-stating my thought. I was making the rather obvious observation that no sentient human being (save for Jim Jones types and Liberals.......) blindly follow every order the "boss" blesses them with. there are contractual obligations, legal constraints and moral considerations.

in the event. frankly, like others, I'm happy we are flushing the AH refuse. and acknowledging that the Dan spent over a decade creating this mess we call a team....I part from others by noting that accountability holds domain over more than just the players. in the end, the Shanahan/Allen team has been an abject failure as well...but they aren't being held to task. AH hasn't played all that much...so the horrible product we saw on the field IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. but they are playing that little part of the responsibility set rather low key. to be quite frank....I see little to no improvement in this teamm(other than special teams)....and a huge step backward on defense...from the previous regime. in my book....our new SB winning coach has reached Jim Zorn levels and not much more. in fact, lasts year's comedy played the eventual SB winners a lot better than this years "better conditioned"..."more disciplined" unit has played lesser teams.

yes...give him and his staff another year, but I don't hear him saying what he as coach is going to do to make this a better team. and, as others like Ryman have noted, it might be the case that Shanahan et al had a flawed strategy from the get go. if so, they need to be held accountable.

right now...this team is as big an embarrassment for self-respecting Skins fans as it was last year.

 

[Neophyte]

exactly. what was overlooked in all this by most fans was that shannahan went into this spoiling for a fight, the whole 3-4 mess, the not even talking to albert before beaking off in the press? to my mind the fact that he stuck out this 3-4 even after it became obvious it was hurting the team is an indictment against his style.

what people forget is that coaches come and go, franchise type players not so much, and frankly if this offence is not immensely improved next season then I say get mikes ass out of here, he would have had two seasons to fix the offence, no excuses.

Ryman, it isn't just the scheme. Please note that when Brett Favre ran for 11 yards to ice the game with the Vikes a couple weeks ago we were playing a 4-3 with Haynesworth in his usually DT spot. And yeah, Al blew the pocket up but the D still allowed a 40 year old man never known for his running ability to gain enough for a first down when they absolutely had to have a stop.

I won't blast anyone for going 3-4 or 4-3. That is purely a coaching call and I admit that while I have my opinions, I am not a coach and never played the game so they are just opinions. I see nearly the same personnel on the field in either scheme, all that changes is where/how they line up. I'm thinking they just need to make a play but that might just be me.

I will blast Mike for his management. I have done that job and frankly done it better than he has done this year. You can't treat all the men the same. They don't all have the same buttons to push and don't respond the same way. Shanahan goofed bad in his handling of Al, it blew up in his face and then he had to damn much ego to reverse course and try to fix it.

 

[Goaldeje]

yes...give him and his staff another year, but I don't hear him saying what he as coach is going to do to make this a better team. and, as others like Ryman have noted, it might be the case that Shanahan et al had a flawed strategy from the get go. if so, they need to be held accountable.

right now...this team is as big an embarrassment for self-respecting Skins fans as it was last year.

Fannie, (see I can be passive aggressive too!), have you completely missed the interents message boards where people are greatly unhappy with Shanahan? I don't think people are by and large giving him a free pass. Now, given Fat Al's actions, it makes him easier to bash. But if you hadn't notice, there are not a lot of people that think it's cool that Shan-lett took a top 10 defense and transformed it to dead last in the league. Lots o' people are questioning his personnel decisions and gameplans, and the nepotism showed his son.

The honeymoon may not be officially over for Shanny, but it is getting damned close. And yes, I too am embarrassed to be a Skins fan this year, particularly (but not limited to) because of how the Fat Al sage has been handled.