Haslett looking like a genius again.

[Lanky Livingston]

An actual Sammy Baugh statline:
18 for 30 with 4 TDs passing
81-yard punt
4 interceptions (on defense)

Its laughable to me that the 3-4 NT is SUCH a different position from 4-3 DT that there's no way Haynesworth would succeed at it. Laughable! He simply didn't want to play it, so never put any work into it. Would he have been the next Casey Hampton? Probably not, but there is ZERO doubt in my mind he would have been a good 3-4 NT if he'd just TRIED.

 

[Boone]

Unlike most of the players I have no vested interest in keeping my mouth shut, the truth is that this team didnt go from being a decent team that was in almost every game despite huge injuries along the oline and on defence, to dead last in defence and an actual regression on offence and several one sided blowouts,all because we are a year older. Thats coaching, scheming and game planning. We are not the most talented team but we are not the worst either.

I agree. And the point about 'vested interest' is certainly valid - except that we've seen over the years, our Redskins typically have no problem honestly expressing themselves 'vested interest' or not. The thing you ignore here is that players also typically are reluctant to say anything negative about their fellow players, but in this case you're hearing plenty of Redskins indicate whose fault the AH saga mostly is.

It also seems sort of funny that a guy who killed our defence has the gall to say Albert was "disappointing" lmao.

I didn't like the Haslett hire and still don't. But the difference is, Haslett's coming to work every day, trying to get this thing going. If you honestly think AH has given his best effort from day 1, there's probably no sense continuing to discuss it - because that's a crock. We can live with 'disappointing', what neither the Redskins nor the fans should have to put up with is a guy who could give a **** about winning or his teammates. I continue to be stunned that you guys defend a guy who has gone out of his way not to contribute to those two things.

and what I just did with haslett was not a character assasination

What I was saying is that you guys have repeatedly assassinated the character of the coaching staff and ownership. I'm not even taking a position on whether that's deserved or not necessarily - just pointing out that repeatedly harping on how disrespectful and hurtful it is to criticize AH's behavior while simultaneously gutting coaches (not just on performance but on motives, intelligence, and ability) isn't very consistent.

seriously inferring that because he was unhappy at being misused in a 4-3 that was getting him to two gap and unhappy in a 3-4 that was getting him to two gap, that obviously he would be unhappy anywhere? Cmon, really? apparently every 4-3 two gaps? now casual fans may not know better but an NFL DC should, unless of course he was playing the PR game.

That's a legitimate point. But AH hasn't helped us out here has he? He's certainly told folks what he didn't want to do, in fact what he wouldn't do. Repeatedly. We're just not sure what exactly he is willing do for his $40 million dollar signing bonus?

we had failures across the board, im not going to list them again, but the key figure here?is Haslett, I believe Shanny is ultimately responsible but Haslett is in charge "supposedly" of the defenceand he will be taking the fall.

Again, legitimate point. Where I really disagree though is that Haslett may ultimately be successful here. We are 12 games into a radical change in the defensive system with all new coaches working with players they didn't truly know until they got here. Sure, it would be great if, when the decision to change defensive modes was made, we had the personnel to support it. But how often does that happen? I question the wisdom of taking a pretty solid defense and feeling you needed to make the change to begin with. In the short term, it's a disaster. But that doesn't mean it won't ultimately succeed.

It'll be interesting if Shanahan decides to replace Haslett given the dramatic decline in the defense's performance this year. I seriously doubt that will occur. Even if I don't like Haslett in the DC role, I'll like that Shanahan sticks to his plan and does it his way. Ultimately, this is his team and if he will succeed or epically fail on his own decisions, he deserves the right to make them and live with the results. I just argue strongly that condemning anyone for where we are 12 games into a total franchise coaching and front office turnover is over-the-top.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

An actual Sammy Baugh statline:
18 for 30 with 4 TDs passing
81-yard punt
4 interceptions (on defense)

Its laughable to me that the 3-4 NT is SUCH a different position from 4-3 DT that there's no way Haynesworth would succeed at it. Laughable! He simply didn't want to play it, so never put any work into it. Would he have been the next Casey Hampton? Probably not, but there is ZERO doubt in my mind he would have been a good 3-4 NT if he'd just TRIED.

as much as I love Baugh, thats a different era, why do you think there are no 2 way players anymore?

3-4 nt is a completely different beast. if you dont understand that, there is not much I can say that will get you to understand. a lot of it is nuance, where one attacks upfield, one moves laterally, where one is predicated on AVOIDING blocks, one is all about soaking them up. on the surface it looks simple and similiar but when you actually analyse it , you see that its analgous to switching a Dtackle to playing Oline, not an easy switch or more people would do it.

heres a quick synopsis a single down.

3tech- upon the snap explodes off ball into gap, uses his Guard and pssibly the Fb to make his read on the run, uses rip or swim move to get into backfield and disrupt play, doesnt worry about anything other than the gap in front of him and will either force run to go way wide, cut back or will actually make tackle himself. success is determined by either making the tackle or forcing a cutback into the pursuit (usually a DE). the best 3 techs dont even let an Olineman get his hands on him. these players are not really thinkers, or reactors, they attack from the snap and read on the run. explosion and leg strength are key.

Nosetackle- upon snap attacks center and stands him up, stays in "chair" and extends arms to get seperation, looks to see where ball is going (often uses the block of the play side gaurd to make this read) tries to shed initial block, fights pressure and demands double team by play side guard. success is determined by whether or not the play side guard gets to the second level to block the LB. benchpress and endurance are key.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

some good points.

didnt wnat to quote the whole thing again lol

I agree with a lot of what you write and wrote there but I have to ask you, what in all this gives you even an inkling that Haslett may turn this around? I honestly want to know what makes you think he can be successful here?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

as much as I love Baugh, thats a different era, why do you think there are no 2 way players anymore?

I'm not disagreeing that 3-4 NT and 4-3 DT are different. What I'm saying is that if Albert was on board, and worked at it, he would have been good. He's got the physical talent to do so.

EDIT: And there's no 2-way players anymore because NFL teams can afford to pay specialists. Back then, the NFL wasn't the cash-cow it is now.

 

[Goaldeje]

Effort is like porn. I know it when I see it.

Still waiting to see it consistently from Alberta.

Also still waiting for a sign that Haslett can get this done. Not looking good for him right now.

Not sure why we still have these threads going on defending Alberta. If you will notice, most of the Alberta-haters are acknowledging that the coaching staff has effed this whole situation up about as much as humanly possible.

Why is it so hard for the Alberta-defenders to acknowledge he is a fat, lazy, dishonest piece of crap? Again, please read carefully: this does not mean the coaching staff did not misuse him, play him out of position, lie to him, or just generally handle the entire situation well.

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know?

 

[Go Deep]

Effort is like porn. I know it when I see it.

Still waiting to see it consistently from Alberta.

Also still waiting for a sign that Haslett can get this done. Not looking good for him right now.

Not sure why we still have these threads going on defending Alberta. If you will notice, most of the Alberta-haters are acknowledging that the coaching staff has effed this whole situation up about as much as humanly possible.

Why is it so hard for the Alberta-defenders to acknowledge he is a fat, lazy, dishonest piece of crap? Again, please read carefully: this does not mean the coaching staff did not misuse him, play him out of position, lie to him, or just generally handle the entire situation well.

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know?

 

[Bulldog]

oh, yeah.

there is no doubt that Allen and Shanahan have to overcome some doubts based upon what THEY have done in 2010.

the Haynesworth situation aside, the run to implement a 3-4 with the personnel on the roster and no investment of picks or free agent dollars on that side of the ball doomed that transition, at least in Year 1.

on offense, how does trading for a 34 year old quarterback in his 12th season compute with a 4-12 team that has no real threats at running back, no legitimate #1 receiver and an offensive line in which the offseason produced ONE prospect in Trent Williams?

oh, and then there was Kyle Shanahan's brain fart about Rex Grossman perhaps being the team's best chance to win.

fans in Chicago must have been howling over that one

So, yes I think Allen and Shanahan didn't do as much as they could have to level with the owner and the fans and admit how far the Redskins had fallen and how much heavy lifting would be required to build this back up.

 

[Boone]

Honestly - where I didn't reply, I wasn't 100% sure I was following you, not trying to be evasive.

I don't know that I do believe Haslett can turn it around. I'm arguing that we don't know after 12 games what can or may happen. We see it all the time. Eric Mangini was a genius his first year with the Jets. How did that work out for him? So was Josh McDaniel.

So a terrible start does not mean ultimate failure. It just doesn't.

 

[Bulldog]

it is the fit of scheme to talent that bothers me.

if you can't properly evaluate what you have and how you can maximize THAT to win games then the club is in trouble.

Joe Gibbs changed his offense at 0-5.

Bill Parcells ran the 4-3 in Dallas his first two years until he was able to draft DeMarcus Ware and later guys like Ratliff to transition to the 3-4.

The best coaches and coordinators ADAPT.

Shanahan to me seems much to rigid in his approach to the game.

And evidently his son has quite an attitude as well at the tender age of 33.

 

[Boone]

Let's face it. Personal attributes are always viewed in context of where you are. If we're steadily improving and winning more than we're losing, Shanahan is 'old school', 'disciplined', and shows 'strong leadership'. At 5 wins and getting routinely blown-out he's 'stubborn', 'egotistical', and 'bull-headed'.

The truth? He's probably all of those things. Whether he can leverage his personal qualities to produce more positive than negative outcomes remains to be seen. Seriously - isn't that what every one of us tries to do every day in our own chosen professions? We all have qualities that could be either strengths or liabilities dependent on our awareness of our own selves and how we choose to employ them.

I think it's fair to see, in Shanahan's case, that we saw a lot of opportunities for him to better employ his personal attributes in year one.

 

[bird_1972]

And evidently his son has quite an attitude as well at the tender age of 33.

Where have you heard this?

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I'm not disagreeing that 3-4 NT and 4-3 DT are different. What I'm saying is that if Albert was on board, and worked at it, he would have been good. He's got the physical talent to do so.

EDIT: And there's no 2-way players anymore because NFL teams can afford to pay specialists. Back then, the NFL wasn't the cash-cow it is now.

I think he could have been decent as a 3-4 nt after all he was decent as a 4-3 two gapper last year, but decent doesnt win rings or get 100 million dollar contracts lol.

and there are no two way players anymore because the game is at a point where you train year round and its so specialiased that even super athletes cant play two ways full time anymore.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Honestly - where I didn't reply, I wasn't 100% sure I was following you, not trying to be evasive.

I don't know that I do believe Haslett can turn it around. I'm arguing that we don't know after 12 games what can or may happen. We see it all the time. Eric Mangini was a genius his first year with the Jets. How did that work out for him? So was Josh McDaniel.

So a terrible start does not mean ultimate failure. It just doesn't.

Ok there is where we differ, I dont think we have even a chance to get better unless Haslett grows a pair and tell shanny how it is. if our issues were "coachable" things like guys blowing assigments or technique things, I would tend to agree, but those sorts of things usually get better as a season goes on not worse. our issues seem to be systemic, as in unsound blitzes on defence, silly formations like the amoeba and such, on Offence it seems like we arent putting our best players on the field and Shanny has a history of doing taht for whatever reason.

Im worried because where we should be getting better, we are getting worse, and nothing ive seen shows me that we have a shot at getting better.

Next year hopefully we will add a huge infusion of youth which will most likely result in marginal improvement (due to learning) or even regression, and frankly regressing from dead last? gross. lol

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Let's face it. Personal attributes are always viewed in context of where you are. If we're steadily improving and winning more than we're losing, Shanahan is 'old school', 'disciplined', and shows 'strong leadership'. At 5 wins and getting routinely blown-out he's 'stubborn', 'egotistical', and 'bull-headed'.

The truth? He's probably all of those things. Whether he can leverage his personal qualities to produce more positive than negative outcomes remains to be seen. Seriously - isn't that what every one of us tries to do every day in our own chosen professions? We all have qualities that could be either strengths or liabilities dependent on our awareness of our own selves and how we choose to employ them.

I think it's fair to see, in Shanahan's case, that we saw a lot of opportunities for him to better employ his personal attributes in year one.

what scares me is we know hes egotistical that was never in question, the question was would he subjugate his ego to win? thus far its been no.

I can take ego, hell I have a huge ego, but my teammates, even the ones who dislike me personally, all know that I do what it takes to help my team win.

 

[Goaldeje]

Im worried because where we should be getting better, we are getting worse, and nothing ive seen shows me that we have a shot at getting better.

Ryman, I agree with you here, we seem to be getting worse as the season goes on, which is troubling. But I attribute a lot of that to losing our best defensive player to injury. Again, I am no fan of Hasett, but to be fair to him, losing Landry hurt a lot. To give credit where credit is due, Haslett used Landry the right way, and I think we all saw how great a player he could be.

Anyway, seems like the D took a nosedive when Landry went down. Not to say they were great before that, but it seemed to get a lot worse when he was injured.

 

[Boone]

Ok there is where we differ, I dont think we have even a chance to get better unless Haslett grows a pair and tell shanny how it is. if our issues were "coachable" things like guys blowing assigments or technique things, I would tend to agree, but those sorts of things usually get better as a season goes on not worse. our issues seem to be systemic, as in unsound blitzes on defence, silly formations like the amoeba and such, on Offence it seems like we arent putting our best players on the field and Shanny has a history of doing taht for whatever reason.

Im worried because where we should be getting better, we are getting worse, and nothing ive seen shows me that we have a shot at getting better.

Next year hopefully we will add a huge infusion of youth which will most likely result in marginal improvement (due to learning) or even regression, and frankly regressing from dead last? gross. lol

We don't differ as much as you think. I have the same doubts/concerns - I'm just not prepared to state emphatically we can't progress. I think Bulldog really identifies the crux of the problem....if we aren't several pieces away from being a winner (and does anyone in America believe that?), then we likely don't have most of the players on our roster currently that will bring us eventually to the Promised Land.

If that's the case, we should be in full-blown rebuild mode, refuse to squander picks even for a relatively cheap deal like the McNabb one. We need players - lots of them - and youth, youth, youth.

I think Shanahan greatly over-estimated what we had here in terms of talent. Does he have a massive ego? Yeah. But he's got to want his 2nd go-round in DC to be a success. So I still hold out hope that trumps 'looking bad' for making the tough changes in direction we may need after this year.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

thats a solid point , I think Landry covered up a lot of what was going wrong early on, there is a reason when your safety leads the NFL in tackles lol.

I think pretty much anyone was gonna try switching Landry to SS after watching even one game last year so I dont really give Haslett much credit for resurecting landry, in all he traded 2 probowlers on the line to become marginal benchwarmers while bring back landry lol

the real thing thats been killing us is we arent getting turnovers now because people have film, they see where our weaknesses are and the know that because we are unsound they can attack without risk in certain areas. this will continue until we smarten up and actually start being sound. the problem is we are so lacking in whats needed to be good at this 3-4 that we forced to be unsound to get pressure.

I do also find it funny that at the start of the year Haslett said we would run a defence like the steelers and san diego and some cowboys stuff, but thus far we have run a LOT of two gap stuff and very little one gap blitz type stuff. it shows in our dline having .5 of a sack.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Boone- thats the major reason im not sold on this new group, anyone who could think that we were only a few players away is not paying attention to actual film. just as anyone who thought we could switch to a 3-4 and get better isnt showing much football acumen.

I have maintained that what we need is a young guy who is building a legacy and willing to take risks to do it, the more I think about it, the more I worry that Shanny's ego is gonna result in more tread water seasons. lets be honest, all of here would take 4 wins then 6 wins and then 8 wins, if it was a progression towards a contending team but 4 wins then 6 wins then 8 wins then 9 wins then 8 wins is what we are seeing this team do constantly.

I am hopeful this will stop I just am finding it harder to believe it will.

 

[fansince62]

First of all, it's a fan board. We're not the Board of Trustees That doesn't mean it's all 'rah rah' and no honest criticism. I think one would be hard-pressed to say we are trying to squelch negativity here. I certainly get that you feel Shanahan was not the guy for the job here. None of us are loving the last month of Redskins football. But if we're not going to give him a chance here in D.C., what's the point of even tuning in or being a fan? I just don't get it. He's not responsible for the last 15 years of football failure (mostly) here, and while his previous coaching experience is relevant, it's a new city, new team, and neither you nor I know what will happen. We're TWELVE games into his legacy here and we're doomed forever already?



Now you see, I view that totally differently. It shows that fans (you know 'like me') actually want AH to do well, to play great football, to help us win football games. There's nothing inconsistent there at all. It shows that this whole thing didn't need to be so and that there's not some big conspiracy by either the team or fans to undermine AH's certain success.

now Boone...how can I bite back if...true to form...you are measured and diplomatic in your responses?