Grade Our 2012 Draft

[Nobody]

Not only that ry, but you are claiming victories for obvious predictions that nearly all of us made. It would be like predicting the Patriots will make it to the playoffs, then calling yourself a prognostic genius when they go. Some things are a given, like nearly everything you listed.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Not to put too fine a line on this but lots of us predicted at least some of these things. And the second item on your list is supposition because we have no clue how a 4-3 would worked here in Shanahan's first year, what with all the guys a year older. Many of us think you are seeing things that just aren't there with the defense the year before so I have a hard counting that as one as a win for you.

yup a lot of people did< which was my point when i said INFORMED FANS often know as much as so called `experts I just happen to right more than most. as for the defence only someone of limited intellect would infer that our defence would have dropped as badly without the switch i think it was amply demonstarted why we failed. our drop was almost entirely due to the players not fitting the scheme, that would be the reason for the massive turnover on the d side. are you really trying to say that you think the 4-3 would have had the same results? REALLY? one year more in age doesnt result in a drop that far. I know you arent dumb neo.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Not only that ry, but you are claiming victories for obvious predictions that nearly all of us made. It would be like predicting the Patriots will make it to the playoffs, then calling yourself a prognostic genius when they go. Some things are a given, like nearly everything you listed.

Really? I guess that would be why nobody argued with me about any of those things.....

 

[Lanky Livingston]

For someone who doesn't NEED to toot his own horn, you do so fairly often anyway. Lol.

I just snorted coffee out of my nose.

 

[Neophyte]

yup a lot of people did< which was my point when i said INFORMED FANS often know as much as so called `experts I just happen to right more than most. as for the defence only someone of limited intellect would infer that our defence would have dropped as badly without the switch i think it was amply demonstarted why we failed. our drop was almost entirely due to the players not fitting the scheme, that would be the reason for the massive turnover on the d side. are you really trying to say that you think the 4-3 would have had the same results? REALLY? one year more in age doesnt result in a drop that far. I know you arent dumb neo.

I'm not speaking in terms of rankings here. I am talking in terms of pure performance and we both know those two things are not the same. At all.

The defense from the Zorn's last year looked good statistically but no one feared it and when the game was on the line, it didn't stop anyone. When we absolutely had to have a 3 and out to get the ball back, it didn't happen. When we took a lead into the 4th quarter we couldn't hold it. And turnovers? Forget about it.

This was NOT an elite defense. It lacked big play ability and it lacked depth. It was that pretty concept car at the auto show. It looked great on paper and sitting on the revolving pedestal but when you had to have the acceleration off the line you found out it lacked a motor.

Stats and rankings are nice, brother, but they rarely tell the whole story. I want to see evidence on the field with the game on the line and it just wasn't there from this team the year before Shanahan got here.

Now, in fairness, the offense didn't do them any favors either.

 

[Elephant]

The defense from the Zorn's last year looked good statistically but no one feared it and when the game was on the line, it didn't stop anyone. When we absolutely had to have a 3 and out to get the ball back, it didn't happen. When we took a lead into the 4th quarter we couldn't hold it. And turnovers? Forget about it.

I wasn't going to get involved with this but I have to question this assertion Neo. While I am not going to say the defense was a barn burner Zorn's last season, they were solid.

The point you made that I do not agree with is the 3 and out assertion. Too many times that defense did make a crucial 4th quarter 3 and out stop, only to have our offense give the ball back after their own 3 and out. The offense's inability to perform created an extra burden on that defense and by late in the game, they just couldn't keep up.

Now, I am with Ryman that I was not a fan of a total switch instead of a gradual switch. I also liked the idea of dumping Haslett immediately when Wade Phillips became available. Wade is the best 3-4 Coach in the history of the NFL.

But, the defense under Zorn was not as over the hill as you suggest nor was it as good as Ryman suggests. There was a median there. I only hope that with a few more players in certain positions and one more year for players like Orakpo and Cofield to get used to their positions, the current defense can improve to a Top 10 defense again. It will take tremendous pressure of the youngster at QB.

 

[Nobody]

I wasn't going to get involved with this but I have to question this assertion Neo. While I am not going to say the defense was a barn burner Zorn's last season, they were solid.

The point you made that I do not agree with is the 3 and out assertion. Too many times that defense did make a crucial 4th quarter 3 and out stop, only to have our offense give the ball back after their own 3 and out. The offense's inability to perform created an extra burden on that defense and by late in the game, they just couldn't keep up.

Now, I am with Ryman that I was not a fan of a total switch instead of a gradual switch. I also liked the idea of dumping Haslett immediately when Wade Phillips became available. Wade is the best 3-4 Coach in the history of the NFL.

But, the defense under Zorn was not as over the hill as you suggest nor was it as good as Ryman suggests. There was a median there. I only hope that with a few more players in certain positions and one more year for players like Orakpo and Cofield to get used to their positions, the current defense can improve to a Top 10 defense again. It will take tremendous pressure of the youngster at QB.

They had 29 takeaways, with not one single touchdown. Our DEs and DTs sucked hard for the most part. Our corners were unreliable. Our Safeties and LBs were the only ones on the team with any glimmer of hope, and even then there were only a couple of them that were good.

We also gave up over 20 ppg. Our punter scored more points than our D did. It was not even close to the elite group ryman was making them out to be. And a lot of guys on that D were either underachievers (Rogers, Haynesworth) or too old and slow. Overall, they were middle of the pack at best. Definitely not near the top, or even the top half of the league.

 

[Elephant]

Overall, they were middle of the pack at best. Definitely not near the top, or even the top half of the league.

You're exaggerating!

 

[Neophyte]

El,

I don't have the time to dig up a bunch of stuff but I did a quick check and in 2009 we were 2-6 in games where we entered the 4th quarter leading or tied for the lead.

And while the 2009 defense was 10th in the league in yards against, it was 18th in the league scoring against. BTW - the 2010 defense was only 21st in scoring against, a drop of just 3 places.

 

[Elephant]

El,

I don't have the time to dig up a bunch of stuff but I did a quick check and in 2009 we were 2-6 in games where we entered the 4th quarter leading or tied for the lead.

And while the 2009 defense was 10th in the league in yards against, it was 18th in the league scoring against. BTW - the 2010 defense was only 21st in scoring against, a drop of just 3 places.

I get what you're saying, we've been through this plenty of times. I am going to say it again, the offensive ineptitude was more at fault for the losses as the defense in many of those 4th quarter losses. If we'd had an offense that would not go 3 and out around 3 or 4 times in the 4th quarter alone, we'd likely not have dropped those games. A defense can only hold a team so long before getting worn thin.

Like I said before, the defense before the switch was not as good as Ryman suggests, nor was it as bad as Ex thinks. Let's hope that the 3rd season sees marked improvement like we saw in the 2nd season.

 

[Neophyte]

For the record, I never suggested that defense under Blache in 2009 was horrible. It clearly wasn't. But it wasn't the elite, world beater some have made it out to be.

And I am fully aware that the offense wasn't doing the defense any favors in the 4th quarter of games. I also noted that it lacked depth, which goes directly to performance in the 4th quarter.

My point all along as not been that we weren't great but that we didn't give up nearly as much in the switch (other than yards, which never lost a foodball game) as folks think.

 

[Elephant]

My point all along as not been that we weren't great but that we didn't give up nearly as much in the switch (other than yards, which never lost a foodball game) as folks think.

Well, in retrospect I can say that we likely didn't. We weren't going to be much better had we stayed in the 4-3, we really were talentless all around. Since we are rebuilding completely, I guess it wouldn't have mattered one way or another.

Regardless, I would much rather have simply given up on Haslett and brought in Wade Phillips to run the 3-4 when he became available.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I'm not speaking in terms of rankings here. I am talking in terms of pure performance and we both know those two things are not the same. At all.

The defense from the Zorn's last year looked good statistically but no one feared it and when the game was on the line, it didn't stop anyone. When we absolutely had to have a 3 and out to get the ball back, it didn't happen. When we took a lead into the 4th quarter we couldn't hold it. And turnovers? Forget about it.

This was NOT an elite defense. It lacked big play ability and it lacked depth. It was that pretty concept car at the auto show. It looked great on paper and sitting on the revolving pedestal but when you had to have the acceleration off the line you found out it lacked a motor.

Stats and rankings are nice, brother, but they rarely tell the whole story. I want to see evidence on the field with the game on the line and it just wasn't there from this team the year before Shanahan got here.

Now, in fairness, the offense didn't do them any favors either.

we played a vanilla scheme that was created to limit chances, not to force turnovers, the offence as you said didnt do them any favours, but if we had devoted the same sort of resources that we were forced to devote after the debacle, the defence would have been better because we wouldnt have had to get rid of several of those guys with no returns. more importantly, Rak would be playing with his hand in the dirt. he has yet to fulfill his promise, you want to talk about paper vs performance? theres your posterchild. on paper he is the prototype olb but in reality he has played far better as a slightly undersized DE. what we should have done was tell shanny, you need to fix the offence, and then went out and gotten a real DC and let him fix the D.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I will say this, I never said the defence under blah was elite, what I said was very clear and I am correct beyond a shadow of a doubt.....
We knew the offence was terrible, we knew what resources it would take to resurrect it, we knew the defence was solid not spectacular by any stretch but a very solid above average defence that had obvious holes at LB CB and S. the Dline was solid but could have used a talent infusion.

so what did we do in the first year? we traded draft picks to get an old washed up bum at qb,and an injury prone RT we committed no resources at all to a defencive switch and then relied on playing unsound football to generate pressure and used the few picks we had left to shore up the offence. read that again WE COMMITTED ZERO RESOURCES TO THE DEFENCE. how many teams rely on signing other teams old guys as resources? So we had an aging team playing a scheme that none of them fit. then we expressed surprise when not only did the offence suck, but the defence sucked even more.

then comes the second off season, instead of having to find one OLB a S and a CB combined in free agency and the draft and then go BPA, we had almost 100% turnover, IN A SEASON WHEN WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO REVAMP THE ENTIRE OFFENCE.

I get frustrated at having to explain the entire concept, Fansince did a great job of comparing it to economics but to me its easy you have a finite amount of resources ie draft picks and cap space, so you dont try to blow up everything all at once, BUT you also triage what needs to be fixed and you keep in mind whats easier to find.

its been proven, you can find linebackers, all over, you can find solid CB;s and safeties, you rarely find great qbs in free agency, you rarely find great Olinemen unless they are stupid overpriced.

Elephant is right btw, we should have given BUM whatever he wanted to come here, the job he has done with the texans only reinforces my points.

 

[Neophyte]

Ryman,

Count me among those living in that shadow of a doubt you say doesn't exist.

We were not even above average. 18th in scoring defense out of 32 teams is clearly not above average and since points is what this game is all about, that is the stat I think means the most.

And we didn't commit zero resources to the defense that first year. We drafted Riley, traded for Carriker, and signed a number of free agents with varying degrees of success. No, Kemo didn't turn out to be a great move but in a market with few options for NT we took a shot that he would return to pre-injury form. It didn't work out.

I get the concept of rebuilding. I really do. I also get the idea of limited resources. I understand how it should work. I understand we didn't make great strides at doing it the right way the first year.

But we aren't in a bad place now. In fact, I believe we closer to being a good football team than at anytime in the last since the last Super Bowl appearance.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Ryman,

Count me among those living in that shadow of a doubt you say doesn't exist.

We were not even above average. 18th in scoring defense out of 32 teams is clearly not above average and since points is what this game is all about, that is the stat I think means the most.

And we didn't commit zero resources to the defense that first year. We drafted Riley, traded for Carriker, and signed a number of free agents with varying degrees of success. No, Kemo didn't turn out to be a great move but in a market with few options for NT we took a shot that he would return to pre-injury form. It didn't work out.

I get the concept of rebuilding. I really do. I also get the idea of limited resources. I understand how it should work. I understand we didn't make great strides at doing it the right way the first year.

But we aren't in a bad place now. In fact, I believe we closer to being a good football team than at anytime in the last since the last Super Bowl appearance.

scoring is not the only measurement, we also allowed far fewer yards and first downs under blah.

so you think trading places in a late round and getting a player they thought was a bust as a throw in is committing resources it turned out well but wasnt exactly us committing anything, Kemo was an easy to see bust fat men dont come off achilles tears that quickly if at all. we gambled and lost and if we gambled based on Kemo its an indictment of the staff not a good thing.

we are closer to being good now, but its after we had an unnecssary period of horrific badness. thats why I am choked. if we had added Kerrigan, et all to what we had we would have been even better

 

[Bulldog]

If you had asked me how long it would take after Zorn departed for the Redskins to become a contender I would have said 2-3 years.

So this is the third season and if the Redskins can go 8-8 or 9-7 and show they are on the upswing for a challenge in 2013 that's fine.

The Redskins lost a #2 and #4 on McNabb.

I think the chances are very slim that the addition of those two picks would have accelerated the rebuild here by an entire season unless you were to draft a transformational player with one of the selections.

The Eagles front office is pretty good in re the draft and they used the second round pick on Allen, the free safety.

He's a solid player but the addition of a FS last year wouldn't have added one more win to the season total for Washington.
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[Neophyte]

scoring is not the only measurement, we also allowed far fewer yards and first downs under blah.

You don't seem to get it. I don't care what we give up as long as we aren't giving up points. Of course, I remember the Richie Petibon defenses too. They almost never lead the league in anything but getting points on them was hard. The only time my attitude on this changes is late in a game when the clock is winding down. Then, I want the defense to able to go get an out. That is something this team hasn't been able to do anymore reliably in the last 20 years than it has go find a QB.

so you think trading places in a late round and getting a player they thought was a bust as a throw in is committing resources it turned out well but wasnt exactly us committing anything, Kemo was an easy to see bust fat men dont come off achilles tears that quickly if at all. we gambled and lost and if we gambled based on Kemo its an indictment of the staff not a good thing.

I think they went after Carriker, knowing he was being misused in St Louis thanks to Haslett's time there, and stole him. That is what I think. I think Kemo was a good gamble. In fact, it was so good a gamble at the time that the Ravens just signed him to back up Nagata after seeing him wash out here.

we are closer to being good now, but its after we had an unnecssary period of horrific badness. thats why I am choked. if we had added Kerrigan, et all to what we had we would have been even better

Here is the thing...I believe we were destined for horrific badness that next year regardless. The offense was going to get the draft picks. Period. If we had kept that 2nd and 3rd, those picks would have been used for the offense line maybe, or a RB to sit behind Portis, or a WR. And it is just as possible that we wouldn't have gotten anymore out of those two players than we did out of the ones we traded for. We would have likely been using Rex under center all season which would have just put more pressure on the defense.

Then last year would have been a defensive draft just like it was and we would have still be looking for a QB this offseason. Nothing would have changed.

Now, I don't expect to change your mind and frankly, at this point, you should know not to expect to change mine. We don't agree and, this is key, there is absolutely NO WAY for either of us to prove our points. We didn't play a 4-3 in Shanahan's first year so everything is speculation.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

Haslett was the guy misusing him in LA lol.

I dont think that our defence would have been nearly as bad, we had guys who fit a 4-3 scheme, thats where you arent getting it. players fit certain schemes , we had none who fit the 3-4 and we forced it. we would still have been bad but not nearly as bad as we were, that defence was epic bad.