Free Agency:

[tshile]

Josh Johnson signs with the 49ers. Another one is lost to cap crap.

i honestly think that has more to do with us drafting RG3 and the 49ers reluctantly resigning smith.

Johnson knows he has a shot to be the opening day starter there. And if he isn't, it'll be a matter of weeks before he gets a shot due to smith sucking.

If he came here he'd be automatic #2 at best, and probably #3 cause the shanahans love grossman's knowledge of the system so much.

It doesn't make sense for him to sign here. I don't think the cap penalty played a role.

 

[tshile]

also, i think it's incredibly hard (and almost unjust) to compare a regularly successful team's ability to plug and play late round picks with what the shanahan's have done.

those teams have a core of talented, dependable players. we haven't had that - we're trying to build that.

put one of those players you mentioned, Victor Cruz, Marques Colston or Assante Samue, or Piere Garcon on the redskins right out of college picked in the same round. You think they have half the career they've had so far if they're playing here instead?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

What the Redskins under Shanahan/Allen have not done is go into the draft and find the impact gem players in the middle to late rounds that Beathard did.

Two years. Two. Last year, Perry Riley started to contribute, and looks like the real deal. This year, Helu broke two Redskins records. This season will be Paul & Robinson's turn to put up or shut up.

I'm just flabbergasted that you can continue to judge Shanahan/Allen over such a small period of time, when the general consensus is 2-3 years for mid-late round prospects to be ready.

 

[Bulldog]

You have to be joking. Alex Smith took SF to 13-3 and put up very good numbers in 2011. You are going to compare him to a backup on a 4-12 team and say that Smith will need to compete with Johnson for time?

The 49ers may have been ready to move on from Smith but it was only going to be if a Hall of Famer dropped into their laps.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

3100 yards and 17TDs is "very good?" If that's the case Mark Brunell was a GD HALL OF FAMER while he was here!!

The 49ers used Smith as a game-control type QB last year, and didn't ask him to do very much. They won because of Gore and the defense, plain and simple. Yes, Smith should be worried about competition from Josh Johnson and whoever else they end up signing at QB.

IF Smith was such a great QB, do you think the 9ers would have pursued Peyton Manning?

 

[Bulldog]

Sorry, Lanky I guess I have high standards.

Dexter was drafted in Round 5 in 1981 and was a starting DE on a Super Bowl team a year later.

Russ Grimm was drafted in Round 3 in 1981 and was a pro bowler 2 years later.

Darryl Grant was drafted in Round 9 in 1981 as a college center and was switched to defensive tackle as a rookie and started in the Super Bowl a year later after making the key interception in the NFC Championship Game.

So, yes, I do expect that a top notch front office is going to be able to find the players to make the system work and to do so in a moderate time frame.

Remember that there was almost no movement in the NFL when Beathard was building the Redskins.

Washington couldn't just reach out and grab a Roy Green from the Cardinals or Steve Largent from the Seahawks and pencil in a pro bowler as a free agent pickup.

The system today is geared toward teams making faster progress, as well as faster collapse if they don't manage the cap well.

Reinforcing that is the fact the college game has changed and more and more eligible players are working in pro style schemes in the NCAA.

 

[Bulldog]

Josh Johnson has no history of production in the NFL.

The fact the Bucs jettisoned him and let him walk away as an unrestricted free agent should show you that despite the arm strength he is obviously still a raw player with not much sophistication in re the pro game.

Harbaugh's offense is precise in its reads and throws. That requires accuracy and timing, things Johnson has not shown.

We are not talking about the 1980's Raiders where the passing game was two guys running down field at full speed and the qb chucking the ball up for grabs

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Dexter was drafted in Round 5 in 1981 and was a starting DE on a Super Bowl team a year later.

Russ Grimm was drafted in Round 3 in 1981 and was a pro bowler 2 years later.

Darryl Grant was drafted in Round 9 in 1981 as a college center and was switched to defensive tackle as a rookie and started in the Super Bowl a year later after making the key interception in the NFC Championship Game.

So, yes, I do expect that a top notch front office is going to be able to find the players to make the system work and to do so in a moderate time frame.

Okay, but what about all the busts Beathard drafted as well that have been mentioned in this thread? And he traded 1st round picks like they were candy. You conveniently ignore those when comparing that era to this one.

 

[Bulldog]

In the end result it doesn't matter

the ends justify the means. for every trade for a Malcolm Barnwell that did not turn out to be successful Beathard and his staff would find a Charles Mann or Raleigh McKenzie sitting there to be selected in the draft.

For every failed move for a Bob Slater (#2 in 1984), Beathard was able to come up with a Clint Didier or plan to be the most successful team in raiding the defunct USFL for Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders, Kelvin Bryant and Doug Williams.

The ex-USFL players powered the offense for years to come.

Again, you judge the moves by how successful the program was in achieving its goals.

The Colts traded a #2 pick to the Bucs for Booger McFarland in 2006 and he helped solidify the middle vs. the run in Indy's run to a Super Bowl title.

The fact that McFarland was cut two years later because he had continuing injury problems and had allowed himself to get out of shape is largely irrelevant when judging what Polian did.

 

[Ax]

Sorry, Lanky I guess I have high standards.

Dexter was drafted in Round 5 in 1981 and was a starting DE on a Super Bowl team a year later.

Russ Grimm was drafted in Round 3 in 1981 and was a pro bowler 2 years later.

Darryl Grant was drafted in Round 9 in 1981 as a college center and was switched to defensive tackle as a rookie and started in the Super Bowl a year later after making the key interception in the NFC Championship Game.

Good thing too, cause in the 1984 draft, with 11 picks, he missed on every one but Jay Schroeder. Who only had a couple good years. And one damn good one.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Josh Johnson has no history of production in the NFL.

The fact the Bucs jettisoned him and let him walk away as an unrestricted free agent should show you that despite the arm strength he is obviously still a raw player with not much sophistication in re the pro game.

He got a lot of attention after being cut, so he's obviously not a never-was prospect either. Yes, he's raw, but here's a secret: so are most QBs when they come into the NFL. There's a transition period that takes most QBs a lot longer than one or two seasons. Aaron Rodgers may not have become the player he is today without sitting on the Packers' bench for 3 seasons behind #4.

Harbaugh's offense is precise in its reads and throws. That requires accuracy and timing, things Johnson has not shown.

We are not talking about the 1980's Raiders where the passing game was two guys running down field at full speed and the qb chucking the ball up for grabs

Harbaugh's offense is about getting the ball to Frank Gore & Kendall Hunter. They had the 29th best passing offense in the league, and probably (not coincidentally) the 29th best starting QB in the league. They threw the ball 451 times, and ran the ball 498 times, a pretty even distribution, however they had the 8th best rush offense.

A further look shows that Smith's throws behind the line of scrimmage up to 10 yards accounted for almost 2/3rds of his passing yardage, meaning he threw a lot of screens, hitches & slants.

 

[Bulldog]

Again, the ends justify the means. Did the Redskins not go to the Super Bowl 3 times in 6 years in the 1980s?

The fact Beathard had a historic draft in 1981 that ranks up there with the 49ers 1986 class and the Steelers 1974 class, rather than accumulating a few players in 1981-82 and then several in 1984 is irrelevant.

Did the team win? That's the bottom line.

If the Redskins 2011 draft had in addition to Kerrigan produced a 1,000 yard receiver, a starting RT and starting cornerback and beyond Griffin the 2012 draft produced only depth players, would you be complaining?

Of course not.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

In the end result it doesn't matter

the ends justify the means. for every trade for a Malcolm Barnwell that did not turn out to be successful Beathard and his staff would find a Charles Mann or Raleigh McKenzie sitting there to be selected in the draft.

For every failed move for a Bob Slater (#2 in 1984), Beathard was able to come up with a Clint Didier or plan to be the most successful team in raiding the defunct USFL for Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders, Kelvin Bryant and Doug Williams.

The ex-USFL players powered the offense for years to come.

Again, you judge the moves by how successful the program was in achieving its goals.

The Colts traded a #2 pick to the Bucs for Booger McFarland in 2006 and he helped solidify the middle vs. the run in Indy's run to a Super Bowl title.

The fact that McFarland was cut two years later because he had continuing injury problems and had allowed himself to get out of shape is largely irrelevant when judging what Polian did.

Yet you are judging what the Redskins did a couple years ago with Cooley even though now he has injury problems and is older.

Too bad there is no more USFL to deposit superstars into the NFL via non-draft methods. Oh wait, free agency is it!

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Again, the ends justify the means. Did the Redskins not go to the Super Bowl 3 times in 6 years in the 1980s?

The fact Beathard had a historic draft in 1981 that ranks up there with the 49ers 1986 class and the Steelers 1974 class, rather than accumulating a few players in 1981-82 and then several in 1984 is irrelevant.

Did the team win? That's the bottom line.

If the Redskins 2011 draft had in addition to Kerrigan produced a 1,000 yard receiver, a starting RT and starting cornerback and beyond Griffin the 2012 draft produced only depth players, would you be complaining?

Of course not.

Okay, so aren't you being extremely premature in judging the Shanahan-era Redskins? You're judging Beathard on a body of work over a decade long, & judging Allen and Shanahan on two years. This is a conversation best saved for 2020, no?

 

[Bulldog]

Lanky, perhaps you have a woody for Josh Johnson. And that's fine.

But there were a BUNCH of teams that went into the offseason looking for talent at qb and NONE of these teams signed Johnson.

Seattle, Arizona, Washington, Miami, Jax, KC and Denver all expressed an interest in upgrading.

Others such as Dallas, New England, Green Bay, etc. were looking for backups to established starters.

Johnson doesn't go to ANY of those teams but is signed by his former college coach.

Surprised?

 

[Bulldog]

Again, my friend, I was citing the example of draft picks and players under Beathard and Gibbs that came to the Redskins and produced on the field in relatively short order.

That is why I selected THOSE players. For this argument.

I could have selected guys like Mel Kaufman and Alvin Walton that sat and then became players down the road for the team.

But my original point was that the Redskins at the time were getting on field production from more than simply their top draft choice.

A couple of those middle rounders were STARTING as rookies or by Year 2.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Lanky, perhaps you have a woody for Josh Johnson. And that's fine.

Come on man, don't dip to ES levels here. We're above this type of comment.

But there were a BUNCH of teams that went into the offseason looking for talent at qb and NONE of these teams signed Johnson.

Seattle, Arizona, Washington, Miami, Jax, KC and Denver all expressed an interest in upgrading.

Others such as Dallas, New England, Green Bay, etc. were looking for backups to established starters.

Johnson doesn't go to ANY of those teams but is signed by his former college coach.

Surprised?

Do you have an inside track to all contract offers & visits made by FA QBs? Do you know for a fact that all of those teams completely passed on Johnson? Maybe he chose San Francisco because of Harbaugh. Maybe he even took less money to do so.

I have no special inclination towards JJ - I simply think Alex Smith is nowhere near as good as you seem to think he is. He's a game manager, akin to what Trent Dilfer was for the Ravens in 2000. He's never going to win a game for you on his own, but he probably won't lose any either.

 

[Ax]

There was a perfect storm here with Gibbs/Beathard, especially early on. Beathard never repeated, or approached, his 81 draft. Without which, he was just your average GM.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Again, my friend, I was citing the example of draft picks and players under Beathard and Gibbs that came to the Redskins and produced on the field in relatively short order.

That is why I selected THOSE players. For this argument.

I could have selected guys like Mel Kaufman and Alvin Walton that sat and then became players down the road for the team.

But my original point was that the Redskins at the time were getting on field production from more than simply their top draft choice.

A couple of those middle rounders were STARTING as rookies or by Year 2.

Keep in mind, there were only 28 teams back then also. So by round 4, there are 12 guys who would have already been drafted in rounds 1-3 in today's NFL who are now 4th rounders. So almost 50% of the league is getting 3rd round talent in the 4th round! And it only compounds as you get deeper. Same amount of college talent coming out, fewer teams selecting. They did not have compensatory picks back then either.

 

[Neophyte]

I will give you the defensive side of the ball Bulldog, although I think we should note that Perry Riley was a 4th round choice and was starting by the middle of his second season. And being something of an impact player too, not just filling space.

But on offense where you seem to think we should be finding receivers who set the world on fire in the 5th or 6th round like Garçon or Colston I say look at the QB situation. You comparing guys who had All World QBs Peyton Manning and Drew Brees throwing them the ball with guys in here in Washington catching passes from Sexy Rexy and John Beck.

See a difference there?

I think it is possible that guys like Austin and Paul might have made more of an impact playing on a team with a future HoF QB throwing them the ball. At the very least they would have had better odds of it.