Free Agency:

[Henry]

Actually, Neo, Bulldog is specifically talking about this front office:

Yes, we have middle and as usual a bevy of late round picks but the Redskins War Room has not imitated Beathard in recent years and found a Dexter in Round 5 or a Darryl Grant in Round 9.

We have picked up some depth players, but not the Garcons and Morgans (both sixth rounders) that we are now paying top dollar for in free agency.

First of all, comparing ANY war room today to Beathard's in the 80s is complete bunk. Nobody can stash players away for a few years and let them mature so that they can hit the ground running by the time they take the field. Charlie Brown did not see a snap his rookie year. Neither did Didier. Or Rypien. Or Terry Orr. Or Kurt Gouveia. Wilburn didn't start until his third season. Neither did McKenzie.

It is completely unfair to look at our 2011 rookies and suggest they are not those guys. We can't say they ARE those guys, but given that many of them have already started contributing to the team, to a degree not seen on this team in years, the potential is there.

Secondly, I've already addressed Garcon, but if you want to point to Colston he's clearly an exception rather than the rule. Most late round guys need a year or two to hit their stride, either because they need more time to develop or they just don't get the chance to start until their second or third year. What you look for from your late round rookies is potential, not superstardom. And I think we've seen that recently.

 

[Neophyte]

My apologies. I didn't read it that way. I kinda figured it was too early to write the book on the 2011 rookie class and so went back in time further. Since Bulldog went with Beathard as the apparent gold standard, I just looked at the years in between.

 

[Jimbo]

Thanks to the NFL Gestapo stealing our cap, other than waiting out London Fletcher, are we pretty much done in FA until the draft? Looking at our available cap room, that's the sense I'm getting.

 

[fansince62]

But Bulldog's point isn't that we haven't found a late round WR superstar, Lanky. It is that we really don't have any late round guys that we can point to as great in recent history. And by recent I mean the last 20 years or so. I am not counting last years bunch as this FO is pretty much completely different from previous crews.

With the exception of Cartwright and Sage Rosenfels, I can't think of any late round guys off hand who are even still in the league from before Gibbs return. Golston and Doughty are the only late rounders left in the league from the Gibbs years and most here would say they are solid depth guys, at best.

The best late round guys we had in the 90s were Gus Frerotte, Frank Wycheck and Keenan McCardell. All those guys played their best ball somewhere else.

What Bulldog is talking about is all the late round guys who were household names for this team for years that we all still remember. Guys like Raliegh McKenzie (11th), Terry Orr (8th), Kurt Gouveia (8th), Barry Wilburn (8th), Charlie Brown (8th), Darryl Grant (9th), Clint Didier (12th) and Monte Coleman (11th). You can nearly make a solid team out of guys drafted by Beathard in rounds that don't even exist today. And that is without bringing up guys like Dexter Manley (5th) and Mark Rypien (6th) who got drafted in what we now think of as the late rounds.

Hell, Joe Jacoby was an undrafted FA.

nice analysis!

I've stayed out of this one..well....because I just don't know what we have found yet. I like the new guys....but am concerned about injury patterns. something that just seems to dog this team over and over.

 

[Henry]

My apologies. I didn't read it that way. I kinda figured it was too early to write the book on the 2011 rookie class and so went back in time further. Since Bulldog went with Beathard as the apparent gold standard, I just looked at the years in between.

Sorry Neo.

I didn't mean to jump down your throat. You've been a voice of reason in this thread. Most of that post was actually meant for Bulldog.

Thanks to the NFL Gestapo stealing our cap, other than waiting out London Fletcher, are we pretty much done in FA until the draft? Looking at our available cap room, that's the sense I'm getting.

That's the sense I'm getting as well. It is unfortunate that we will probably have to rely more on the draft than we originally planned. I guess we'll see how well the front office can adjust on the fly.

 

[Henry]

nice analysis!

I've stayed out of this one..well....because I just don't know what we have found yet. I like the new guys....but am concerned about injury patterns. something that just seems to dog this team over and over.

That is a good point as well. Our second and third round picks both missing most of the season really hurt last year. I don't know why it keeps happening. Maybe we need a new trainer?

 

[Neophyte]

Didn't Shanahan bring in a new trainer when he came to town, precisely because we had an issue with injuries before he got here (we were like Team Hamstring, as I recall)?

Edit: never mind, I think am I am thinking of the Strength and Conditioning Coach, Ray Wright. He came in with Shanahan.

 

[Ax]

I would add that finding players for an ever evolving set of coaches, coordinators, and schemes is infinitely harder to do. Even Beathard would have struggled.

And, Beathard's home runs were such that his more prevalent strike-outs aren't remembered much. But make no mistake, the man whiffed a lot. But when you hit a few out of the park, nobody cares.

 

[Om]

Mike Oliphant, anyone?

 

[Ax]

Mike Oliphant, anyone?

Talk about your buzz-kill.

I still favor trading next years 1st, for that years 2nd, to draft white cornerback, Tory Nixon. That's as bad, or worse, as any pick Vinny ever made.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

well, this front office hasnt had that ability to find late round gems yet but then, we didnt exactly have a wealth of picks either. I think they need to have a superlative draft this year because we didnt have a great free agency period, and we will need contributors with most of our picks. great teams have good late rounds because they can go with SYSTEM picks, guys who fit thei systems but dont have great measureables and slip through the cracks.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

You yourself said Perry Riley was good!!! You're being negative just to be negative.

 

[Neophyte]

So far to this point, in two years and 18 picks under Allen and Shanahan, we have had two outright misses. Those are Dennis Morris (TE and 2010 5th rounder) and Selvish Capers (OT and 7th rounder).

Granted, it is still early to call any of these guys anything, success or failure, but I like the odds so far.

 

[Om]

Maybe one day we'll get to assess the Redskins' draft over a reasonable sample size of years with one regime at the helm. Until we do, it's likely to remain hit and miss. Teams we associate with "great" drafting tend to be ones with continuity.

It's far easier to find guys with specific targeted skill sets to plug into well-defined roles on an otherwise successful team, than it is to hope a position player picked in the mid- to late rounds blows up and becomes a star even while the sytem he plays in changes dramatically and constantly around him.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I have a feeling whoever we draft, there will be *people* on this message board who say they were terrible, rotten, no good very bad draft picks. No matter WHO we take.

 

[Miles Monroe]

I have a feeling whoever we draft, there will be *people* on this message board who say they were terrible, rotten, no good very bad draft picks. No matter WHO we take.

Unheard of... that would never happen here

 

[fansince62]

I would add that finding players for an ever evolving set of coaches, coordinators, and schemes is infinitely harder to do. Even Beathard would have struggled.

And, Beathard's home runs were such that his more prevalent strike-outs aren't remembered much. But make no mistake, the man whiffed a lot. But when you hit a few out of the park, nobody cares.

true dat...and when you're working with 12 picks a draft.....well the odds of stumbling on the right guy or two go up.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Josh Johnson signs with the 49ers. Another one is lost to cap crap.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Utah corner Conroy Black was in the 4.18-4.24 range in the 40.

Could be that it was hand-timed, but he's 6'0, so impressive either way.

 

[Bulldog]

What the Redskins under Shanahan/Allen have not done is go into the draft and find the impact gem players in the middle to late rounds that Beathard did.

Yes, the first rounders in Kerrigan and Williams look like keepers (assuming Williams overcomes his addiction to the herb) and others such as Jarvis Jenkins appear as if they might be emerging talents.

But we have not found that wide receiver in Round 5 or 6 or the cornerback in Round 3 or 4 that comes in here and earns a place as a Victor Cruz, Marques Colston or Assante Samuel did with other teams.

The irony is that the top free agents the Redskins invested in, Pierre Garcon and Josh Morgan, were both 6th rounders. Polian found Garcon, a small college player, and he started a Super Bowl at age 22 for the Colts.

Here we have drafted guys in Hankerson, Paul and Robinson in 2011 and others such as Terrence Austin in 2010 and right now none of these players has put up any real numbers on offense.

Paul was made active to block and play special teams but had virtually no role in the passing game in 2011 despite the fact that the receiving corps was lacking size and playmaking ability down the field.

Robinson was lucky to make the practice squad after fumbling away kickoffs in the preseason and looking unprepared to be an NFL receiver in camp.

Hankerson could be the player that breaks through here of that group.

But overall, the Redskins mid and late round picks HAVE provided some necessary depth and that is a change from the Cerrato years when we were drafting players in these rounds who were cut almost right away when camp opened.

I am still waiting for that ONE gem that turns into a Terrell Davis (6th round), Marques Colston (7th Round), or young London Fletcher (undrafted).

Shanahan and the front office in Denver came up with several of those players including Davis and Rod Smith, and that's what helped launch them to the playoffs.