ESPN--Riddick: Redskins' Passing Game Is Simple

[fansince62]

It's kind of funny that so many expect Washington to put out a top tier product after the cap penalty levied over the past two seasons. Even the boobs in the booth yesterday brought up the subject, and had a graphic up with the players Philly had accounting for 18K in cap. It was like 6 or 7 key starters. Multiply that by two, and that leaves us with jack **** to build with.

Some say that's Snyders fault. Me, I see don't it that way. There's an old saying.... you can't make chicken salad out of chicken **** and if you do, nobody is going to swallow it.

If we were winning right now, Shanny would be a god instead on the hot seat for making a team with few top tier players win. He's had chicken **** to work with, so why the great surprise when we're up and down.

you have reduced 20 seasons to the last two. that's called a limited sample set in some businesses. while that might explain short-run impacts…it doesn't cover the 20 years.

btw…one answer to your Shanahan question is that the lack of raw talent in the material may not be the only factor. perhaps, core philosophy may also be at fault. a run dominance strategy based on an undersized but athletic line may not be the best approach in a league that BY DESIGN favors the passing game. kinda like in golf these days - the change in technology favors the long hitters over the shorter, more accurate ball strikers. the game has changed and one adapts, falls behind or sets the next paradigm. not saying this is the case, but it is something to think about.

 

[Bulldog]

You know how you can tell things are starting off on the wrong foot?

When you hire a coach and then let him hire the GM, only to be followed up with the hire of his son to one of the most critical staff vacancies.

As FanSince62 has indicated there is more than the hint of dysfunction here.

In Baltimore you have a GM Ozzie Newsome hire the coach, John Harbaugh.

There are checks and balances on what both men can do.

Ditto in Green Bay and New York.

Those are the recent Super Bowl winners.

In Washington and Dallas you have highly individual organizations where power is not shared.

Is it a coincidence neither team has won since the early to mid1990s when both teams had different structures?

I think at some point we are going to have to change our thinking and stop hiring coaches that want to be their own GMs and Team Presidents, a la Schottenheimer, Gibbs II and now Shanahan.

Outside of Parcells and Bellichick this system doesn't seem to work.

 

[Neophyte]

I think BD just hit the nail on the head although I don't think the idea is new. I have read the same from many members here and at other sites. Hell, I've said it a time or two.

My concern when we hired Shanahan was not Mike as coach, it was Mike as GM. He has never won the big one with his own players. Much of those two Denver teams were assembled by someone else.

And I think it is too late to take that away from him. He believes he knows better than anyone else were talent evaluation is involved and he isn't going to go back to letting others "buy his groceries".

 

[Elephant]

...My concern when we hired Shanahan was not Mike as coach, it was Mike as GM. He has never won the big one with his own players. Much of those two Denver teams were assembled by someone else...

I expressed the same concern. It wasn't just Shanahan though. Of all the former Super Bowl winning coaches being bantered around to succeed Zorn, Shanahan was the only one I did like. Cowher, Gruden...they did not put their teams together either. They had front office guys do it.

If/when Shanahan gets his extension, there has to be some push back from Snyder to hire a personnel guy that Shanahan, Snyder and Allen can agree upon. Shanahan needs to give up some power or Snyder HAS to let him go after year 5 when there is no improvement.

If Shanahan does not make it through year 5, we have to steal Eric DeCosta away from the Ravens. Ozzie has been pretty solid over his tenure, but deCosta has been a huge part in their success.

 

[KDawg]

We need to hire a football GM. I am firmly, 100% in favor of keeping Bruce Allen on board as a co-GM, in charge of financial aspects/contracts. But we need a guy to be the head honcho. The big cheese.

That guy, whoever it may be, HAS to be in charge of hiring a head coach. It's the only way we haven't tried to do things. I don't believe that a head coach as the GM is a very good strategy for most situations. There are outliers that it works for, but I think it's so few and far between that it's not something that you want to put the entire structure of your team around.

 

[Miles Monroe]

Pete, that's a great reminder for me, personally. Thanks for posting that.

My frustration stems from the concern I have that I don't like to admit often. I am concerned that with mostly the same players, we seemed to hit some sort of rhythm last year, and weren't able to build on it. Why have we not been able to build on that success? Certainly Robert's injury and the cap penalty are huge. But by this point, the injury should not be as big a concern, should it? If those with medical backgrounds tell me otherwise, I will gladly defer to their knowledge and experience, but from where I sit, he looks physically light years better than he did at the start of the season. It looks like to me that we can't even build week to week.

From my seat, it looks like there are massive problems on all three sides of the ball. The cap penalty vanishing will certainly help, but I am not convinced it will solve all that ails us. It's discouraging. The unspoken concern is Robert's effectiveness. That last pass yesterday was as bad a pass as I have even seen. Just. Awful. Can you imagine if Romo throws a ball like that? Oy. Has the league figured out our offense?

We had all the same problems last season, but we created one big problem this season which brought all the others back into play. Since Robert got injured, it's been drummed into his head... protect yourself. That's not the game the kid has played. He's been fearless, and played with natural instinct his entire career. Robert showed amazing sense of the rush / blitzing players last year. Taking off with the ball never got a second thought, and he was gone before you knew what happened. His play was enough to mask the other problems enough for us to compete. We've taken a anomaly of sorts, and made him play in a conventional way. People figured out what we were doing last season, but couldn't stop it because of Robert being so good at what he does naturally. Yes, the injury slowed him, and if allowed to speak freely, I have no doubt he tell you that he doesn't need the brace at this point, and it does limit him to a degree. If he was told to just go out and play your game, and not worry about how long your in the league, we would be kicking ass and taking names. It's hard to have the best of both worlds, but I think we could still have a dominant running game with big uglies for linemen that can protect long enough for the deep routs to develop. Shanny goes with the smaller lighter linemen for their speed and agility, so the QB has to be mobile. Robert hasn't found that happy medium behind a line ideal for his natural style.

On D, we just keep depending on players that don't produce as expected. We've had a revolving door at safety. Rak isn't what he's ever been billed as, short of his first season while running the 4 / 3. Fletcher was becoming a liability last year, and isn't getting any younger. Cofield is a great player, just not at nose. No different then last season in reality except for better play at right OLB from a back up.

So, to my eye, the play of Robert is is the change that has killed this team this season. That's not a knock on the kid. He was programed for 9+ months to run out of bounds, slide... protect yourself.

If I had 5 minutes with Robert, I'd have little to say beyond listen to your heart. If you want to be the greatest that has ever played the position, you have to be yourself, not what the coaches, fans, or media say you should be.

I'd take 8 years of blowing peoples minds over 15 years of solid play in a half a heart beat....

 

[Miles Monroe]

yeah, but this is my thing about that. Next year after the cap is gone and we can go after some people the excuse is going to sound like "you didnt think our first year back from cap hell was going to make us all better again, did you?"

its one excuse after another.

But a true student of the game will realize more often then not you can't just plug players into key positions, and rookies do take time to develop. No excuse, just a reality. I've heard more then one media outlet say that the two seasons without translates to 2 or 3 seasons to recover from.

 

[Miles Monroe]

But who gave him the chicken **** Pete? Shanahan is to blame for much of the deficiency he has on this roster.

Josh Morgan and Fred Davis both were questionable signings when we had such limited cap space. I understand there is some logic to it, but our problems go much, much deeper than a simple cap issue.

When you have a wallmart wallet, you don't shop at Sachs 5th ave El. Do you honestly think we get Morgan if we had the money to get somebody better ? There was a lot of logic actually. If Davis is healthy, he's a hell of a TE. When you have no better on the roster, and can't afford to get an equally skilled replacement, you keep the head case around till you can.

 

[Goaldeje]

Nice post, Pete. While I agree, it also fills me with trepidation. I guess that is also the one big nagging concern I have: can Robert develop into a consistent, dominant pocket passer. Initial intel seems to suggest no. So like you say, do we just have him revert back to where he was last year and risk losing him, or do we try the round hole/square peg approach? I'm conflicted, personally. His development, or lack thereof, so far this year scares me, frankly. I'd like to see more good signs that he is reading D's, hitting receivers in stride, etc., and frankly, I'm not. But having him revert to last year scares me too.

If forced to choose at gun point, I probably choose reverting, realizing that version of Robert gives us a much bigger chance of making some SB noise than this version.

 

[Boone]

You guys really believe that the case is closed on Griffins potential to be an effective pocket passer? I find that just amazing. He's a 2nd year QB coming of a total knee reconstruction playing behind the worst pass protecting line in the league for God's sake. He's going to prove all the doubters wrong in time.

 

[Sarge]

I simply do not understand this rush to make him a pocket passer. EIther Shanny is delusional about the pass blocking skills of our O Line or it's another case of the QB running the team. Neither speaks well of Shanny. Now, were we to go out and get an O line this off season and THEN wanted to try making him a pocket passer to see if he has it, that would be fine. Otherwise with this bunch of retards playing on the line, RGIII is gonna die

 

[Burgundy Burner]

We need a new OL sans Williams, imho. I really think it is that simple. Passing game would improve substantially with the big uglies up front.

 

[Miles Monroe]

Nice post, Pete. While I agree, it also fills me with trepidation. I guess that is also the one big nagging concern I have: can Robert develop into a consistent, dominant pocket passer. Initial intel seems to suggest no. So like you say, do we just have him revert back to where he was last year and risk losing him, or do we try the round hole/square peg approach? I'm conflicted, personally. His development, or lack thereof, so far this year scares me, frankly. I'd like to see more good signs that he is reading D's, hitting receivers in stride, etc., and frankly, I'm not. But having him revert to last year scares me too.

If forced to choose at gun point, I probably choose reverting, realizing that version of Robert gives us a much bigger chance of making some SB noise than this version.

You need a pock to develop as a pocket passer, and I have no doubt he has all the tools to be an outstanding one. He doesn't often have time to work his progressions when passing, and constantly has people in his face. That should be the exception, not the rule. Behind our line, the chances of seeing development are slim to none. The greatest QB would eventually get rattled behind our line.

You guys really believe that the case is closed on Griffins potential to be an effective pocket passer? I find that just amazing. He's a 2nd year QB coming of a total knee reconstruction playing behind the worst pass protecting line in the league for God's sake. He's going to prove all the doubters wrong in time.

Never said that... Robert could thrive as a pure pocket passer behind a line built to protect, not just run block. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that, as I tied my thought that the run game could still being dominant with big boys that can also sustain blocks long enough for deep routs to develop.

 

[Miles Monroe]

One more point I have. We sold the farm and got the most dynamic QB to hit the pros in... well maybe ever. We could have gotten a QB without trading picks to run a conventional offense. Hell, Cousins could easily run a traditional offense and be very successful.

Having a race horse pulling a milk cart is just a waste on all accounts...

 

[servumtuum]

We had all the same problems last season, but we created one big problem this season which brought all the others back into play. Since Robert got injured, it's been drummed into his head... protect yourself. That's not the game the kid has played. He's been fearless, and played with natural instinct his entire career. Robert showed amazing sense of the rush / blitzing players last year. Taking off with the ball never got a second thought, and he was gone before you knew what happened. His play was enough to mask the other problems enough for us to compete. We've taken a anomaly of sorts, and made him play in a conventional way. People figured out what we were doing last season, but couldn't stop it because of Robert being so good at what he does naturally. Yes, the injury slowed him, and if allowed to speak freely, I have no doubt he tell you that he doesn't need the brace at this point, and it does limit him to a degree. If he was told to just go out and play your game, and not worry about how long your in the league, we would be kicking ass and taking names. It's hard to have the best of both worlds, but I think we could still have a dominant running game with big uglies for linemen that can protect long enough for the deep routs to develop. Shanny goes with the smaller lighter linemen for their speed and agility, so the QB has to be mobile. Robert hasn't found that happy medium behind a line ideal for his natural style.

On D, we just keep depending on players that don't produce as expected. We've had a revolving door at safety. Rak isn't what he's ever been billed as, short of his first season while running the 4 / 3. Fletcher was becoming a liability last year, and isn't getting any younger. Cofield is a great player, just not at nose. No different then last season in reality except for better play at right OLB from a back up.

So, to my eye, the play of Robert is is the change that has killed this team this season. That's not a knock on the kid. He was programed for 9+ months to run out of bounds, slide... protect yourself.

If I had 5 minutes with Robert, I'd have little to say beyond listen to your heart. If you want to be the greatest that has ever played the position, you have to be yourself, not what the coaches, fans, or media say you should be.

I'd take 8 years of blowing peoples minds over 15 years of solid play in a half a heart beat....

That may be one of the most brilliantly presented insights I have read about the Griffin situation in quite a while. Well done, Miles.

I also agree with your addendum about, under the proper circumstances, his potential to become a pocket passer as well.

 

[Elephant]

When you have a wallmart wallet, you don't shop at Sachs 5th ave El. Do you honestly think we get Morgan if we had the money to get somebody better ? There was a lot of logic actually. If Davis is healthy, he's a hell of a TE. When you have no better on the roster, and can't afford to get an equally skilled replacement, you keep the head case around till you can.

We paid too much for Morgan, Pete. I am not talking about a better WR, that money could have been used elsewhere in areas of far greater need. We have draft picks who produce as much as him...he was just replaced by an UDFA. After we got Garcon, when we knew we lost all that money, we should have focused on the OL or a CB. Instead we signed Morgan.

And please...please do not tell me how good Fred Davis is. In 5 years he's played one full season as a starter and was good. The rest have been plagued by stupidity and drugs. You DO NOT re-sign a player like that with money that could/should have been used elsewhere.

 

[Miles Monroe]

We paid too much for Morgan, Pete. I am not talking about a better WR, that money could have been used elsewhere in areas of far greater need. We have draft picks who produce as much as him...he was just replaced by an UDFA. After we got Garcon, when we knew we lost all that money, we should have focused on the OL or a CB. Instead we signed Morgan.

And please...please do not tell me how good Fred Davis is. In 5 years he's played one full season as a starter and was good. The rest have been plagued by stupidity and drugs. You DO NOT re-sign a player like that with money that could/should have been used elsewhere.

I can't disagree Brian, there was much debate over how much we paid, but we needed people for Robert to throw to. He also carried us to some degree while Garcon was out, so he was a big part of our winning the NFC East. His replacement this week was mainly to see what Williams can do in the return game. IMO, he lost his job to Hank because of size, and RAC, but haven't looked at the stats on that aspect. Hank is done, or should be. He's fragile, and can't stay on the field. Time to cut bait. Availability is everything, and we'll see if Morgan can fight his way back this week.

I'm no defender of Davis. He's a waste of air, but out of those 5 seasons, he played two behind Cooley. I'll stand by my statement that with nobody on the roster to fill his spot as starter, and viable replacements wanting bigger paydays, resigning him was about the only move at the time. How do you spend the money elsewhere if you need a starting TE to replace the one you let go ?

 

[Bulldog]

For every move for a Morris or Garçon there is a move for a Josh Morgan or Brandon Meriweather.

Shanahan looks great compared to Cerrato, but fails when compared to Ozzie Newsome or Jerry Reese.

 

[KDawg]

What's with the "better play at right OLB last year" stuff all about? Brian Orakpo is a very good football player. If you don't believe me, go ahead and watch him. Only him. He plays with his hands, he's fantastic at bending down the line on run away, and when he has force responsibility on run to, he usually does his job. He's mediocre in coverage and his pass rush is good, but his sack numbers are down.

I don't get the disconnect between Kerrigan and him. They are very close to one another skill wise. Excellent players who explode off the edge.

The problem is that the interior of our DL, missing Carriker and a true nose, isn't collapsing the pocket. Since the pocket isn't being punctured from the inside, QBs can step up in a nice clean pocket and let throws go cleanly. Or, teams have sought to neutralize the rush by exploiting coverage deficiencies and throwing quick before our rush could get there.

It's no coincidence that most of Rak and Kerrigan's sacks have come when the other guy forced the QB from his spot, or took on two guys to free up the other... Or they actually had the pocket collapse inside and the QB had to try to move from his spot to throw.

The interior of our defense is the problem. Safety is an issue as well.

PS: I like RJax, too. Quite a bit.

 

[servumtuum]

What's with the "better play at right OLB last year" stuff all about? Brian Orakpo is a very good football player. If you don't believe me, go ahead and watch him. Only him. He plays with his hands, he's fantastic at bending down the line on run away, and when he has force responsibility on run to, he usually does his job. He's mediocre in coverage and his pass rush is good, but his sack numbers are down.

I don't get the disconnect between Kerrigan and him. They are very close to one another skill wise. Excellent players who explode off the edge.

The problem is that the interior of our DL, missing Carriker and a true nose, isn't collapsing the pocket. Since the pocket isn't being punctured from the inside, QBs can step up in a nice clean pocket and let throws go cleanly. Or, teams have sought to neutralize the rush by exploiting coverage deficiencies and throwing quick before our rush could get there.

It's no coincidence that most of Rak and Kerrigan's sacks have come when the other guy forced the QB from his spot, or took on two guys to free up the other... Or they actually had the pocket collapse inside and the QB had to try to move from his spot to throw.

The interior of our defense is the problem. Safety is an issue as well.

PS: I like RJax, too. Quite a bit.

Sacks are indeed dramatic, but sometimes the more subtle not-so-dramatic stuff makes a difference as well.

People rag on Rak like he's useless because he doesn't have a swim move, doesn't spin, his sack numbers are down, his coverage skills aren't great...etc. Oh, and he and collects boatloads of uncalled holds.

All of the above does not mean he's ineffective. Why do you think they hold him so much? He's a damn handful to contain, that's why.

Don't think the opposing QBs don't notice him either.

There is a stat called "QB hurries" that indicates the close presence and distracting effect of a defender effectively getting the QB to hurry his throws, letting the ball loose before he originally intended to contributing to the liklihood of decreased accuracy and poor throws.

One site compiles these and I sorted the list by team to see how well Rak contributes in this area.




Apparently he's not as useless as some might think.

Here's a link to the site-they have an interesting bunch of stats not published by other sources.

NFL Statistics - SportingCharts.com