Discussing the potential future benching og RG3

[Elephant]

El...that's it? you're basing your argument on a sample set of one?

cmon bud. I know you to be one smart cat when we've lunched together near B-More (Ravens dig...score one for fan). you're getting emotional about this just like the rest of us.

You're losing the argument and reverting to the same tactic I have watched you use against others. It won't work! The emotion is the same, I am exhausted by the apologists for the kid...no need reverting to that trying to place your opposition on the defensive. You cannot ignore the facts...they are right in front of you and football people much more qualified than you or I are supporting what I have been saying about RG3 for years...he is not an NFL QB.

Anyone hear Cooley break down every pass play in the game? I don't know if he has a bone to pick/axe to grind with RG3, but he was all over the terrible performance. In his break down he painted a picture of complete incompetence.

Without going into specifics, his bottom line was that Robert is seemingly incapable of recognizing the play and making the throw, instead his reverts to his natural instinct to take off running.

He said the INT on the throw to Paul was entirely Griffin's responsibility because he missed the throw to 2 open receivers...breaking it down so us less than savvy football minds could understand. It was one of many plays he mentioned Robert taking off instead of making the throw to the #1 or #2 options...instead running, trying to create something and completely missing wide open receivers. And there was the first down run by Robert and how that was not necessary since there were 2 options open and he didn't see either, instead taking off. And what irked Cooley and the crew was the fact that Robert got up triumphantly after that run...making it appear that Robert had no idea what was missed on the play.

 

[fansince62]

You're losing the argument and reverting to the same tactic I have watched you use against others. It won't work! The emotion is the same, I am exhausted by the apologists for the kid...no need reverting to that trying to place your opposition on the defensive. You cannot ignore the facts...they are right in front of you and football people much more qualified than you or I are supporting what I have been saying about RG3 for years...he is not an NFL QB.

Anyone hear Cooley break down every pass play in the game? I don't know if he has a bone to pick/axe to grind with RG3, but he was all over the terrible performance. In his break down he painted a picture of complete incompetence.

Without going into specifics, his bottom line was that Robert is seemingly incapable of recognizing the play and making the throw, instead his reverts to his natural instinct to take off running.

He said the INT on the throw to Paul was entirely Griffin's responsibility because he missed the throw to 2 open receivers...breaking it down so us less than savvy football minds could understand. It was one of many plays he mentioned Robert taking off instead of making the throw to the #1 or #2 options...instead running, trying to create something and completely missing wide open receivers. And there was the first down run by Robert and how that was not necessary since there were 2 options open and he didn't see either, instead taking off. And what irked Cooley and the crew was the fact that Robert got up triumphantly after that run...making it appear that Robert had no idea what was missed on the play.

and that is...to borrow someone else's phraseology....BS.

You like to selectively tailor your arguments. please...at least make an attempt at relating Cooley's thoughts accurately. I did listen to the tape. Yes....the analysis highlighted one thought: Robert's performance was horrendous. He also said, in response to a question from Czabe, that RGIII's performance was not nearly like this in the MN game. You are trying to use a horrendous game to make a point that you argue is valid over the ENTIRE period of Robert's career - to validate YOUR position adopted near the time the young man was drafted. which is not anything near what Cooley stated in the entire 31 minutes of that bcast.

Again, dang it El, you're being selective. On the throw to Paul...Cooley proceeded through an analysis the essence of which was that Robert made bad decisions when two options were open, turned to his left in which Cooley argues Robert has a bad habit of losing his down-field vision...and made an off-target throw WHICH PAUL SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT. you forgot to mention the last part.

RGIII had a bad game. Cooley's analysis got my attention. I also know that this isn't a pattern as you would like us to believe. We're gonna have to play this hand out and determine if he is really done as a player because...like most QBs before him the last 10 years...he's had the living *hit beaten out of him and has become gun shy. Hope that isn't the case cuz we aint winning any division championships with Colt McCoy or Kirk Cousins. I'm not interested in watching mediocrity and that's what those two guys are. If Robert is truly down for the count...this team is screwed for at least another 2 to 5 years....probably longer.

btw...Cooley had nothing to say about that o-line other than the lone Compton play. I watched that game - the o-line sucked as well. Cooley tipped his hand when he went through the whole drill about how he would confront RG in the locker room had he been called out as he interpreted Griffin to have done. One can almost hear Cooley thinking "Ok...I'm devoting this entirely to you Mr Griffin and I'm going to teach you a lesson about throwing and buses".

Griffin didn't play well. But the meme trying to be set up by some that the team somehow played well o adequately other than Griffin is pure fantasy. For better or for worse...I'm riding it out with Griffin to find out once and for all if he has it or not. The alternatives are another step backward at this point. put in another light: this team is screwed royally if Griffin doesn't pop out of this funk.

 

[Elephant]

and that is...to borrow someone else's phraseology....BS.

You like to selectively tailor your arguments. please...at least make an attempt at relating Cooley's thoughts accurately. I did listen to the tape. Yes....the analysis highlighted one thought: Robert's performance was horrendous. He also said, in response to a question from Czabe, that RGIII's performance was not nearly like this in the MN game. You are trying to use a horrendous game to make a point that you argue is valid over the ENTIRE period of Robert's career - to validate YOUR position adopted near the time the young man was drafted. which is not anything near what Cooley stated in the entire 31 minutes of that bcast.

Nope, but he did not say the performance in MN was good either. It was the same result...who is being selective now?

Again, dang it El, you're being selective. On the throw to Paul...Cooley proceeded through an analysis the essence of which was that Robert made bad decisions when two options were open, turned to his left in which Cooley argues Robert has a bad habit of losing his down-field vision...and made an off-target throw WHICH PAUL SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT. you forgot to mention the last part.

Go back through and look what I have been saying from my 1st statement about this play...Paul is not absolved because Robert missed 2 reads and made a poor throw...he bumbled it directly to the defender. The point is, Al...had Robert made the pass to the wide open 1st option, the wide open 2nd option, had not prematurely run out of the pocket, then made a poor throw...you get the point? 3 poor decisions and a poor throw do not absolve Robert of his responsibility for that interception.

RGIII had a bad game. Cooley's analysis got my attention. I also know that this isn't a pattern as you would like us to believe. We're gonna have to play this hand out and determine if he is really done as a player because...like most QBs before him the last 10 years...he's had the living *hit beaten out of him and has become gun shy. Hope that isn't the case cuz we aint winning any division championships with Colt McCoy or Kirk Cousins. I'm not interested in watching mediocrity and that's what those two guys are. If Robert is truly down for the count...this team is screwed for at least another 2 to 5 years....probably longer.

RG3 has not had a "good" game in 2 seasons. And...for the 10th or 15th time, I agree, Al! We have to play the hand we have. Griffin is our QB for the immediate future. I am not! Nor have I ever! Called for him to be sat in favor of Colt McCoy. I have made several inquiries to the success of this offense under Colt in his 2 wins and the obvious failure of this offense under Griffin. Oh and talk about selctive...Cooley suggests Cousins, given the chance, can run this offense well...provided he has an offensive line. His inference from that 31 minute break down was that Robert is not. Did you miss that?

btw...Cooley had nothing to say about that o-line other than the lone Compton play. I watched that game - the o-line sucked as well. Cooley tipped his hand when he went through the whole drill about how he would confront RG in the locker room had he been called out as he interpreted Griffin to have done. One can almost hear Cooley thinking "Ok...I'm devoting this entirely to you Mr Griffin and I'm going to teach you a lesson about throwing and buses".

Cooley made several mentions of the offensive line and that the line cannot be graded on yesterday's game because Robert's play was so poor.

Griffin didn't play well. But the meme trying to be set up by some that the team somehow played well o adequately other than Griffin is pure fantasy. For better or for worse...I'm riding it out with Griffin to find out once and for all if he has it or not. The alternatives are another step backward at this point. put in another light: this team is screwed royally if Griffin doesn't pop out of this funk.

Shit in one hand...wish in the other...

 

[Elephant]

Keep hatin' on RG...it clouds your objectivity.

Cloud my objectivity? Chris Cooley walked us through the play very clearly displaying how Robert made 3 mistakes before the pass was thrown and then threw a poor pass! Did you watch the ****ing game Sunday? It's not just one game either! It is every full game he has played this year. It was last season and it was the 2nd half of the Seattle game in 2012 when he was obviously incapable of performing his job as QB. Can you not see the OBVIOUS regression in his game? He is not a good QB...if you can't see that, then you are the one incapable of objectivity.

I swear! It never ceases to amaze me how blind people are willing to remain. RG3 is not a good NFL QB. He had one amazing season in a scheme offense! A simple scheme that he had the physical gifts to excel. He can't even do that anymore!


I will state right here, right now with confidence! I will leave this site forever if RG3 is the starting QB of this team to start the 2016 season. Who among you who opposes my point of view is willing to stand by their convictions? tr1...put your money where you mouth is son!

 

[Boone]

You've already confessed you are incapable of being objective on this topic Brian. You may well be proven right, but I think you are enjoying the latest step backs by Griffin quite a bit. I can throw some exclamation marks and all caps in there if it makes it more convincing

 

[Elephant]

You've already confessed you are incapable of being objective on this topic Brian. You may well be proven right, but I think you are enjoying the latest step backs by Griffin quite a bit. I can throw some exclamation marks and all caps in there if it makes it more convincing

Enjoy watching our team fail? I would say that is the wrong choice of words. Am I rubbing it in to those who think any bias clouds my judgment about this kid? Yup! I have been saying it for 3 years now and it just keeps coming true. He is not a good NFL QB. He just isn't and anyone who suggests he is, is not paying attention to the product on the field...they are just giving excuses.

 

[Boone]

You're being obnoxious - it doesn't matter if you are essentially correct.

 

[McD5]

Enjoy watching our team fail? I would say that is the wrong choice of words. Am I rubbing it in to those who think any bias clouds my judgment about this kid? Yup! I have been saying it for 3 years now and it just keeps coming true. He is not a good NFL QB. He just isn't and anyone who suggests he is, is not paying attention to the product on the field...they are just giving excuses.

What would be your solution? Go with McCoy or Kirk for a year or two while we add some pieces?

Draft Jameis or another QB a few rounds later and hope we hit like San Fran?

Or trade for a journeyman vet for a year or two while we add some pieces?

 

[Elephant]

You're being obnoxious - it doesn't matter if you are essentially correct.

OK, obnoxious may be right, too. I am just sick and tired of people defending the indefensible and telling me I am incapable of objectivity. That's called hypocrisy.

 

[Elephant]

What would be your solution? Go with McCoy or Kirk for a year or two while we add some pieces?

Draft Jameis or another QB a few rounds later and hope we hit like San Fran?

Or trade for a journeyman vet for a year or two while we add some pieces?

I would let him start the next 6 games. I would not waste a 1st round pick on any QB in this draft...and NO!!! I would not draft Jamies, Mariotta or anyone else. I would build the OL before I signed any other QB and let Robert play out his rookie contract to prove to everyone he either is...or isn't the QB.

We shoved all in here. There is absolutely no turning back at this point unless he starts all the remaining 6 games and performs as he did against the Buccaneers.

 

[MartinC]

we'll just have to disagree then! I find the stats Tandler (or Kiem...can't recall) posted much more convincing vis the high number of sacks in the last game. RGIII has things to fix....BUT THAT O-LINE SUCKS LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS IN PASS PRO. IT'S AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL.

I think we can all agree that we have issues along our offensive line and need upgrades at both guard positions and RT. Maybe those upgrades are on our roster (Moses, Long) maybe they are not.

But heres the thing not all sacks are on the O'Line. First the QB and centre have to get us in the right protection, then the QB has to do his job and be where he is supposed to be. If its a 3/5/7 step drop he HAS to take the right steps and be at the right depth because thats where the O'line expect him to be and thats what the protection is designed around, If the QB is not where he should be it makes the lines job harder. Then if its a 3 step play or a pistol with one step its designed so the ball HAS to come out fast. The routes are timed to that and the blocking is designed for that (maybe some cut blocks to get the DEs hands down to create a throwing lane) - if the QB holds it its going to be a problem. Then the receivers have to get separation and give the QB a place to go with the ball (based on the cuts ups I have seen thats not been an issue this year - we have guys open most plays).

Even if all the above happens you are still going to get pressure from time to time. Then as a QB you need a 6th sense of when pressure is coming, where its coming from and an ability to move in the pocket to buy that half a second to get the ball off or know when its time to find a lane out of the pocket to extend the play and/or take off and get what you can. RGIII has never been good at this 'pocket sense' and right now for whatever reason he is slow in his decision making and hesitating so its making the problem worse.

A poor line + a QB who is making fundamental errors in his drops and is making slow decisions and holding the ball = bad things happening.

All that said it would be just lovely if we could get through a series without someone on that line jumping offsides or having a procedure penalty or key holding call. That would help a lot.

 

[MartinC]

And your point is?

Robert gets a pass for throwing another poor pass when he tried to do too much because he missed/didn't see the open receiver on a pass that the coach drew up, instead scrambling out of the pocket at the first hint of pressure?

One thing he is NOT doing is leaving the pocket at the first hint of pressure. If anything its the reverse. He is taking too long to get off his first read or give up on a play, is too slow in his decision making and is not sensing the pressure closing in. He is holding the ball in the pocket and giving up sacks as a result not doing a Blaine Gabbert and bailing if his first read does not flash open off the snap and he sees the wrong coloured jersey in the corner of his eye.

 

[Dead Money]

Brian I give you credit.... you keep coming back for more and more. Don't waste your time. Its like arguing religion at this point, you cannot explain why someone shouldn't have faith or why they should. They either do or they don't.

You and I see this whole thing on about the same level. I have had faith at times but now I've determined that RG3 is like a TV evangelist who is just gonna be living on a beach in Mexico someday, drinking my donations.

 

[fansince62]

I think we can all agree that we have issues along our offensive line and need upgrades at both guard positions and RT. Maybe those upgrades are on our roster (Moses, Long) maybe they are not.

But heres the thing not all sacks are on the O'Line. First the QB and centre have to get us in the right protection, then the QB has to do his job and be where he is supposed to be. If its a 3/5/7 step drop he HAS to take the right steps and be at the right depth because thats where the O'line expect him to be and thats what the protection is designed around, If the QB is not where he should be it makes the lines job harder. Then if its a 3 step play or a pistol with one step its designed so the ball HAS to come out fast. The routes are timed to that and the blocking is designed for that (maybe some cut blocks to get the DEs hands down to create a throwing lane) - if the QB holds it its going to be a problem. Then the receivers have to get separation and give the QB a place to go with the ball (based on the cuts ups I have seen thats not been an issue this year - we have guys open most plays).

Even if all the above happens you are still going to get pressure from time to time. Then as a QB you need a 6th sense of when pressure is coming, where its coming from and an ability to move in the pocket to buy that half a second to get the ball off or know when its time to find a lane out of the pocket to extend the play and/or take off and get what you can. RGIII has never been good at this 'pocket sense' and right now for whatever reason he is slow in his decision making and hesitating so its making the problem worse.

A poor line + a QB who is making fundamental errors in his drops and is making slow decisions and holding the ball = bad things happening.

All that said it would be just lovely if we could get through a series without someone on that line jumping offsides or having a procedure penalty or key holding call. That would help a lot.

aside from the fact that the whole vulture over Redskin carcass aspect of these threads the last few days has lost my interest.....your series of posts have been pretty good.

so..I have had to park my allegiance and wider field of view on Robert and acknowledge the contributing component of mechanics and decision-making to the overall problem space. that said....I don't think anyone has done root cause analysis...moreover...and this is classic in the work world (not directed at you btw): "ok, got it. heard enough on the problems. what's the solution?" and the few solutions I have heard proposed are either unconvincing, simply substitutions of one problem for another...or just veiled restatements of the original problem.

If I'm in charge...I see multiple things in play. I'm interested in getting to the root of the systemic issues that repeatedly end state in the issues. I'm interested in establishing a program that fixes Robert's mechanics and decision-making issues - I'm interested in figuring out why there was such a precipitous drop this last game. I'm interested in determining where the problems lie in my coaching staff and talent evaluation staff. I'm interested in figuring where my GM's core strengths fall and where he is not suited for the current task set. if I don't take this big picture pov...jettisoning the current QB does not fix a *amn thing. it just resets the hour glass until the same problems surface.

It's about time we fix things with resources on hand. It's about time we get at the root causes and eliminate them. until that is done...it's not smart...IMO...to throw assets that have value overboard. you don't know if the ROI on those assets can eventually meet expectations until you fix all the other barriers first.

 

[MartinC]

so..I have had to park my allegiance and wider field of view on Robert and acknowledge the contributing component of mechanics and decision-making to the overall problem space. that said....I don't think anyone has done root cause analysis...moreover...and this is classic in the work world (not directed at you btw): "ok, got it. heard enough on the problems. what's the solution?" and the few solutions I have heard proposed are either unconvincing, simply substitutions of one problem for another...or just veiled restatements of the original problem.

I'm just some guy on a message board. I'm 100% sure that the highly paid coaches are spending a LOT of time breaking down game and practice film to isolate specific break downs both physical and mental to get to the root cause. At least I hope they are because if thats not happening we really are screwed

Then I also hope that the position coaches and the OC along with the HC are working with all concerned to fix the issues. If players don't respond to coaching and the same problems keep happening you change the players - if they still keep happening you change the coaches. We have been round those loops a few times over the last 25 years or so.

Then there is the interesting point you make about the GM and talent evaluation. Its been my view for a while now that we are a fundamentally dysfunctional organisation. There is not a culture conducive to winning, we don't have everyone pulling together and focused on wins and championships as being their goal, there is a lack of professionalism and competence generally. Until we get the organisation fixed (and I have always thought culture is a top down thing - so things RIGHT at the top have to change first) coaches, QBs and draft picks will come and go and not much is going to change.

 

[Ax]

Stability is something we haven't tried much since Gibbs 1.

Be nice to run the same offense for 5 years. Makes drafting, and free agent signings, exponentially easier, and more successful.

 

[fansince62]

Then there is the interesting point you make about the GM and talent evaluation. Its been my view for a while now that we are a fundamentally dysfunctional organisation. There is not a culture conducive to winning, we don't have everyone pulling together and focused on wins and championships as being their goal, there is a lack of professionalism and competence generally. Until we get the organisation fixed (and I have always thought culture is a top down thing - so things RIGHT at the top have to change first) coaches, QBs and draft picks will come and go and not much is going to change.

yup!!!

won't jump too far into the coaching part other than to note that problems manifested themselves quite a while ago. the evidence is not encouraging vis efforts to redress - across the board.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Brian I give you credit.... you keep coming back for more and more. Don't waste your time. Its like arguing religion at this point, you cannot explain why someone shouldn't have faith or why they should. They either do or they don't.

You and I see this whole thing on about the same level. I have had faith at times but now I've determined that RG3 is like a TV evangelist who is just gonna be living on a beach in Mexico someday, drinking my donations.

Hey I deserve some credit here too, for hanging on to this conviction, despite withstanding more ridicule than any of you all.
Why can't you, me and Brian split the cost of a Mexico trip, and hang out and drink Tequila with RG3 in Puerto Vallarta, in 2 years, when he retires from the NFL ?
2 years should be enough time to save up, no ?

We could be the Tres Amigos. Wait, does RG3 count ? That would be 4 Amigos. Ok, we'll just make him RG4, and we'll be the Tres Amigos.
Nah hold on, we need a name that reflects all the abuse we've taken for our Redskin beliefs.
How about the Tres Tortured Amigos ?

 

[fansince62]

lmao.

as I see it..there are three groups separating out:

1) all the folks who just gee whizz loved RGIII in 2012 - when we were winning - but now can't toss the guy over the rail fast enough.

2) the folks who were skeptical all along and, I suspect, desired some degree of failure.

3) and the folks who want this string to play out to the end.

this franchise is the gift that just keeps on giving!

 

[Dead Money]

Please let the record reflect I held my tongue. Have a nice day.