Daronte Jones and the Defensive Staffing Thread

[Voice_of_Reason]

D. Mentioned again, he's done so multiple times, that Kliff's offense made it hard for the defense to prepare for the rest of the league because it was so different including rarely showing motion

I heard that too, and he's said it a number of times, and I just shake my head.

So, instead of looking for a differentiator on offense, which also means it's hard for 31 other teams to prepare for, you want to use an offense which is more similar, so it's better for the defensive preparation.

Personally, I think you can do both. You can be different and offense and prepare your defense. That's why you have a scout team. You just have to practice right.

This argument really irritates me.

 

[skinsinparadise]

I heard that too, and he's said it a number of times, and I just shake my head.

So, instead of looking for a differentiator on offense, which also means it's hard for 31 other teams to prepare for, you want to use an offense which is more similar, so it's better for the defensive preparation.

Personally, I think you can do both. You can be different and offense and prepare your defense. That's why you have a scout team. You just have to practice right.

This argument really irritates me.

The way Keim has made the point its clear that its an excuse used by their defensive staff and feels like Quinn too as the cherry on top of the argument of why they thought Kliff had to go. But agree its odd.

 

[HTTR]

I thought in practice they had a scout team to run the plays of that weeks opponent?

 

[skinsinparadise]

I thought in practice they had a scout team to run the plays of that weeks opponent?

They do. But the offense wants to run their plays, too and want to practice against the best defensive players. So you get a good dose of your own scheme in practice, especially of course in camp.

 

[Higskin]

Good listen with Logan adding some input as to what the defensive scheme might look like. My big take away was a Flores defense can hide deficiencies and attacks in a way that doesn't allow the offense to dictate game flow.

 

[Primus Porcus]

They do. But the offense wants to run their plays, too and want to practice against the best defensive players. So you get a good dose of your own scheme in practice, especially of course in camp.

And i'm sure it was amplified witht the sheer number of injuries we had. We're signing guys off the street to come in on defense who have a limited amount of time to get up to speed in order to get on the field like Preston Smith and Darnell Savage. They need to be practicing with the first team just to get up to speed. At some point you need to get meaningful reps for everyone with each other, and suddenly you don't have a 4th and 5th DE who can run your scout defense against your starting offense.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

The way Keim has made the point its clear that its an excuse used by their defensive staff and feels like Quinn too as the cherry on top of the argument of why they thought Kliff had to go. But agree its odd.

Stupid excuse from the defensive staff, and stupid for Quinn to use it as an excuse.

You literally WANT an offense which is difficult for opposing defenses to prepare for, and that they haven't seen.

If that means you need to plan a way to get your defense prepared, then so be it.

And Kliff's offense worked tremendously well in 2024. So it's not like they were running something which didn't work.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Stupid excuse from the defensive staff, and stupid for Quinn to use it as an excuse.

You literally WANT an offense which is difficult for opposing defenses to prepare for, and that they haven't seen.

If that means you need to plan a way to get your defense prepared, then so be it.

And Kliff's offense worked tremendously well in 2024. So it's not like they were running something which didn't work.

I don't think it was the point that they were facing a bad offense in practice, it's that they were facing an offense in practice that was vastly different than the ones they would see on gamedays.

 

[HTTR]

Whether it’s Kliff’s no motion offense or not, practicing against Jayden I would think is always going to be atypical of other teams. Very few have that kinda running threat. I have to agree this comes across as excuse making.

 

[Conn]

I heard that too, and he's said it a number of times, and I just shake my head.

So, instead of looking for a differentiator on offense, which also means it's hard for 31 other teams to prepare for, you want to use an offense which is more similar, so it's better for the defensive preparation.

Personally, I think you can do both. You can be different and offense and prepare your defense. That's why you have a scout team. You just have to practice right.

This argument really irritates me.

It is odd, especially because it really only applies to the offseason. Which is a big deal but not so much to this staff, who treat it like an extended walkthrough. The rest of the year the starting D only practices against the scout team O though, which should be running stuff that isn’t really ours anyways based on the film for that week. The starting O and starting D don’t practice against each other during the season much. As far as I’m aware it’s only individual drills and such, not full team work.

On the other hand, the stuff Kliff didn’t utilize as much (motion, low PA occurrence, MOF routes) is a lot of the reason I didn’t like Kliff so much. So for me this is kind of like when you make a kid show their work on a math problem but they copied someone else’s answer anyways, so the outcome doesn’t have good process. I believe that Quinn probably does feel this way as part of his internal cope around the defense’s failures. That’s part of why I don’t like him so much, either 😂

 

[Conn]

Whether it’s Kliff’s no motion offense or not, practicing against Jayden I would think is always going to be atypical of other teams. Very few have that kinda running threat. I have to agree this comes across as excuse making.

Unless you’re practicing situational stuff, a lot of times mobile QB’s aren’t taking off in practice because the whole point is to practice specific concepts against specific looks. You know he can run if it breaks down, it doesn’t really help anyone on the team to do that outside of live ball situations.

This is sort of like the Kirk story where Jay Gruden hated that he was afraid to throw INT’s in practice because it meant he wasn’t attacking the concepts they were trying to get work in on for the rest of the team. Checking down in practice also doesn’t help anyone

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

On the other hand, the stuff Kliff didn’t utilize as much (motion, low PA occurrence, MOF routes) is a lot of the reason I didn’t like Kliff so much. So for me this is kind of like when you make a kid show their work on a math problem but they copied someone else’s answer anyways, so the outcome doesn’t have good process. I believe that Quinn probably does feel this way as part of his internal cope around the defense’s failures. That’s part of why I don’t like him so much, either 😂

On observables (the limited window that we as fans get), there are some patterns/quotes developing around DQ that make me think he's not the brightest HC around. Yes, this is definitely one of them. Talking about this in this way is sort of like saying "I am stupid" because if it was that clear of a problem, there should have been some ways around it. There are many other issues with this quote. Even if you believe it, you shouldn't have shared it. You should be kind of embarrassed by it, and it really doesn't make you look good - at a minimum!

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I thought in practice they had a scout team to run the plays of that weeks opponent?

Well, 31 other teams do but apparently we don't? That's the only explanation for this nonsense.

By this logic, your defense can only prepare if the opponent runs the same style offense as your offense.

Now, most offenses these days are somewhat similar in concept, most of them fall off the WCO offense tree, because:

Bill Walsh => Mike Shanahan => Kyle Shanahan => Kyle Shanahan Tree (KOC, McDaniels, LaFluer, McVay tree, etc. etc.)
Bill Walsh => Mike Holmgren = > Andy Reid => Jon Gruden => Gruden Tree (Jay, McVay Tree, etc.)

** McVay is interesting because he's kidnof off of both the Shanahan and Reid variants of the WCO, because he worked for Kyle as a TE coach, and then Jay as OC. My guess is he learned more from Kyle than Jay, however, publicly he says nice thing about dumbass moron Jay.

There are other offenses, but the original WCO is now the defacto backbone of most of it.

Kliff was the outlier, for sure. Sometimes it's good not following the crowd.

But still, every offense is somewhat different. And apparently you can only prepare for an offense if your offense is similar to your opponents. This is just a really stupid excuse and thing to put out into the world.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I don't think it was the point that they were facing a bad offense in practice, it's that they were facing an offense in practice that was vastly different than the ones they would see on gamedays.

I know. And my answer is "so what?"

That also means your opponent is facing an offense it doesn't usually practice against, and that's a VERY good thing. And maybe a reason why the offense was REALLY successful in 2024, and even with all the injuries and backup QBs, not terrible in 2025.

You want to be different.

Then you have the scout team pretend to be the opponent. That's their job.

Hell, people say that the reason 3rd string QBs develop more slowly in their own offense is they are always running the scout team pretending to be another offense.

This whole excuse is really stupid to me. I've hated it since it started to trickle out I think in October/November. Whitt said something about it and I wanted to clout him in the ear.

** EDIT: I've been gone so long, it feels good to be back and have a good rant. Gets the juices flowing.

 

[mcdonaldrw]

This excuse has to be the weakest I have ever heard.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I know. And my answer is "so what?"

That also means your opponent is facing an offense it doesn't usually practice against, and that's a VERY good thing. And maybe a reason why the offense was REALLY successful in 2024, and even with all the injuries and backup QBs, not terrible in 2025.

You want to be different.

Then you have the scout team pretend to be the opponent. That's their job.

Hell, people say that the reason 3rd string QBs develop more slowly in their own offense is they are always running the scout team pretending to be another offense.

This whole excuse is really stupid to me. I've hated it since it started to trickle out I think in October/November. Whitt said something about it and I wanted to clout him in the ear.

** EDIT: I've been gone so long, it feels good to be back and have a good rant. Gets the juices flowing.

im not arguing validity, just that it wasn't a complaint about the offense, it was a 'reason' presented about why the defense seemed to struggle. Yes you want the offense to be different, and good but that wasn't the point being made. Practicing against a 'good' offense during the week, to see something completely different on the field on Sunday, creates issues in prep.

I agree also that Scout Teams pretend to be the opposing offense, but there is something to be said about the injury issues we had, and the limitations of even being able to put a full team on the field for practice, allowing for enough 'non-essential' players to be taking reps outside of the scheme of the team, to even put 2 full scout teams on the practice squad.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

On the other hand, the stuff Kliff didn’t utilize as much (motion, low PA occurrence, MOF routes) is a lot of the reason I didn’t like Kliff so much. So for me this is kind of like when you make a kid show their work on a math problem but they copied someone else’s answer anyways, so the outcome doesn’t have good process. I believe that Quinn probably does feel this way as part of his internal cope around the defense’s failures. That’s part of why I don’t like him so much, either 😂

And it's a big part of the reason I did like Kliff's offense.

The difference is Kliff's theory was you use no-huddle and tempo to essentially accomplish the same things you do with motion.

We did run a lot of PA, but the PA was out of gun or pistol. Something PFF championed, (ok, fall out of your seat, I'm quoting PFF), is ball faking and actual run game success are less important to a successful PA game. What's most important is the OL sells it as a run. The reason being, defenders can't watch the player they are trying to attack and the QB at the same time, so if the OL shows run, and sells, it the defense buys it. A lot of what the QB does is window dressing. Aikman, who was also absolutely phenominal at traditional PA said early in his career, he hated turning his back to the defense to execute the fake.

By running PA from pistol or gun, you minimize the amount of time the QB takes his eyes off the field.

There are a lot of ways to chop an onion. Maybe because it's kindof like disruptive technology, I liked zagging while the rest of the NFL was zigging. Use tempo to force defenses to play more base coverages, simplify concepts, keep the QBs eyes on the field, and just go.

The Patriots offense under Manning did this, and it was almost unstoppable. Which is where I really picked up an appreciation for it.

The one thing I will criticize Kliff for, which the Colts didn't do, is he used too many damn personnel groups. Which slowed down the hurry-up, allowed the defense to adjust, and negated some of the things which tempo provides.

If you're going to go no-huddle, fully commit. Just pick your personnel group, whatever it is, and go. That's easier said that done, and the Colts had 2 really versatile TEs which helped them be able to essentially stay in the same package but provide a whole bunch of different looks.

 

[skinsinparadise]

 

[skinsinparadise]

Packers writer

 

[Conn]

And it's a big part of the reason I did like Kliff's offense.

The difference is Kliff's theory was you use no-huddle and tempo to essentially accomplish the same things you do with motion.

We did run a lot of PA, but the PA was out of gun or pistol. Something PFF championed, (ok, fall out of your seat, I'm quoting PFF), is ball faking and actual run game success are less important to a successful PA game. What's most important is the OL sells it as a run. The reason being, defenders can't watch the player they are trying to attack and the QB at the same time, so if the OL shows run, and sells, it the defense buys it. A lot of what the QB does is window dressing. Aikman, who was also absolutely phenominal at traditional PA said early in his career, he hated turning his back to the defense to execute the fake.

By running PA from pistol or gun, you minimize the amount of time the QB takes his eyes off the field.

There are a lot of ways to chop an onion. Maybe because it's kindof like disruptive technology, I liked zagging while the rest of the NFL was zigging. Use tempo to force defenses to play more base coverages, simplify concepts, keep the QBs eyes on the field, and just go.

The Patriots offense under Manning did this, and it was almost unstoppable. Which is where I really picked up an appreciation for it.

The one thing I will criticize Kliff for, which the Colts didn't do, is he used too many damn personnel groups. Which slowed down the hurry-up, allowed the defense to adjust, and negated some of the things which tempo provides.

If you're going to go no-huddle, fully commit. Just pick your personnel group, whatever it is, and go. That's easier said that done, and the Colts had 2 really versatile TEs which helped them be able to essentially stay in the same package but provide a whole bunch of different looks.

Yeah you got there by the end of your post and beat me to it, that’s why I didn’t value Kliff’s version of the no huddle very highly. Because like Sean Payton, he substitutes personnel constantly and neuters many of the advantages you’re “supposed” to receive running hurry-up.

As KDawg has explained many times, no huddle and hurry-up are different and don’t have to overlap. I don’t like Kliff’s version very much and think it basically just messed up the operation of the offense causing lots of penalties while defenses were still able to sub to match us, not getting “caught” in bad personnel, and not snapping the ball until almost the end of the play clock after all that, which makes it easier to jump the snap.