All we are sayyyyyyyyying, is give Zorn a chance

[EatSleepRedskin]

Yeah, I don't think that Zorn is really the overall problem.

I think Cerrato has to go. MUST go.

Zorn has another year or so to prove he's got the team at least moving in a good direction.

 

[Ax]

The only one that might be gone, is Zorn.

Vinny ain't going nowhere. If we knew things would continue to progress as they have the last month, then there's be no need for change. Including Vinny.

If Zorn can live without his balls, I'm willing to give him his 3rd year, as of right now. We'll see what the last 4 games bring.

Vinny, and Snyder, are not the boogeymen everybody needs them to be.

 

[riggins44]

They ran the ball 3 times from the 5-yard line, with a 7-point lead, and Campbell having close to a career game. That, to me, is simply inexcusable, and playing not to lose, instead of going for the throat. I'm still sick about it.
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

Agree completely. At least take one shot into the endzone. If going for FG then fall in middle of field to take the angles out of play.

I am curious to know who calls what plays when? Who calls redzone? The final two minutes? And why do we still run wide in short yardage?

Yesterday my son and I commented on how team seems to be playing hard for Zorn. We wondered if it was Zorn or Bingo's playcalling. Something has lit a fire under this team.

But for some reason we have bad luck. Then again good teams create good luck.

 

[Bulldog]

Zorn got zero out of Thomas and Davis.

Then all of a sudden Lewis arrives and the play calls change to put in the crosses that Thomas runs well and the tight end screens and short outs that Davis excels on and the Redskins passing game is all of a sudden moderately productive after being putrid for weeks?

Lewis might have been calling Bingo when he got the call from the Redskins, BUT as anyone who has followed the NFL over the past 20 years realizes that Lewis has FOUR Super Bowl rings.

That's not a mistake. He has FOUR Super Bowl rings working on the staffs of Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren.

He knows what he is doing and it is showing on the field.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Easy with the 4 SB rings...exactly zero of those came as an offensive coordinator.

 

[Bulldog]

How many rings does Zorn have period? ZERO.

How many games did he perform as an offensive coordinator in the NFL? ZERO.

When Mike Holmgren left the new coach indicated he wasn't going to retain Zorn in Seattle.

Interesting that a guy like Zorn if he was such a hot coaching prospect at age 54 had still not been made a coordinator at any level.

My point in regards to Lewis is that he has been around nothing but winners in his NFL career.

He has had a hand in developing some top players and seeing them transition successfully to the NFL.

He has a perspective in game experience that Zorn lacks.

Zorn never coached another position other than quarterback.

Lewis has worked with both running backs and receivers in addition to being a coordinator.

He has the A to Z experience.

Zorn's sole claim to fame is getting Matt Hasselbeck ready to play in Seattle. But Matt did in fact come from 3 years in the same WCO system in Green Bay.

 

[Neophyte]

Alright BD, here is the question then. If you are Dan Snyder (we will assume for a moment that Snyder is rational, just for the sake of argument ok?), what do you do in the off season to really fix this team for the long haul without losing the advances we have seen on the offensive side of the ball the last couple weeks?

 

[Lanky Livingston]

By that argument, Zorn should get at least SOME credit for going to a superbowl. Probably should have won it also...

 

[Bulldog]

but they didn't win it did they?

As to what I would do, it all depends upon the system the new coach wants to install.

Let's consider offense.

I would like to see Portis and ARE go. I think both are players whose productivity is only going to decline further in future seasons.

I think the team might have found a backup running back and special teams performer in Quinton Ganther who is only 24. He makes tackles on teams and can run the ball from scrimmage. He is not a top tier back but a solid #3.

Marcus Mason has shown why he is not an NFLer. Ganther quickly came in and soaked up the extra carries that Mason thought he was going to get. Mason doesn't play teams well and is a step slow facing game day competition.

I would look to draft a young back to add speed to the backfield for 2010. If Betts can come back heathly as the #2, so much the better. Ganther would then be the #3.

I think you let Rock go at age 31 even though I like him. I think this team needs to start building for the next generation.

Jason Campbell shouldn't return if the new coach is Shanahan or another WCO adherent. Campbell is just not well-suited to that system. But if the next coach wants to feature a power running game and deep passing game, Campbell remains a possibility at age 27 to fit into that scheme.

Brennan is a zero. I expect him to be released after next year's camp if he makes it that far with the new coach. He's already 26 and hasn't taken a snap from center in an NFL game. Didn't look to good this preseason against second teamers.

With Collins at 38, the club needs to find a younger developmental player who has legit NFL skills, not the sawed-off runt like Chase Daniel or the boastful Brennan.

If what we are seeing from Thomas and Davis is real and lasting, the club may not need to address WR in the offseason. With Cooley coming back, the team could do what NE did in 2004 and present a two TE formation that is tough to defend.

If Thomas can take the outside role, you could move Santana Moss inside to the slot and let him catch 80-90 balls in 2010. Kelly's health and the evaluation of Marko Mitchell would determine if a depth veteran FA is necessary, but may not be.

At fullback Mike Sellers will be 34. Time to start grooming a replacement for him. His performance as a lead blocker while still solid has slipped a bit from the past couple of years.

Kicker - well, you know how I feel about Suisham. As Jimmy Johnson and Tony Dungy said, if a guy proves he can't produce in crunch time you can't keep him.

Punter - Hunter Smith is fine. He directionally kicks well, holds well, and has the capability to make plays off the fake, which produced 2 TDs in 2009.

KR and PR - I think we have found a new KR in Devin Thomas. He has been bringing balls out beyond the 30 with regularity and has been close to breaking a couple.

With ARE out of the picture, I would not use Moss or Hall at PR but find a rookie back or one of the WRs who could step in here.

 

[Neophyte]

Well, that addresses the players but what I was really driving at was coaching. After a season and a half, the offense is showing serious signs of life under the Zorn, Smith, Lewis, Meidt crew. How do you make the changes you need to make while not stunting that or forcing the offense to start over again from scratch?

 

[servumtuum]

O.K., Neo, looking at it from that perspective-whatever this "system" has morphed into that seems to be producing results-would it not then be necessary to retain Zorn? If a new coach or (admittedly unlikely) hire a GM, wouldn't they bring in their own "pet" system and as you say disrupt or, perhaps, interrupt the progress being made currently?

I'm also bothered by the arsenal of validation now available to Vinny to present to Danny reasons why he should stay around-as has been noted, fans are already buying into the idea that all that is needed now is incremental improvements to produce a playoff contender. Vinny presumably came up with the whole Sherm Smith thing to mollify a pissed off Danny because the Skins were truly stinking up the football field. Now, things are better-not it terms of actually winning, but in how the team is performing. This leads me to two questions. First, will this solidify Vinny's position-I have struggled with the idea that Vinny was a "sure" goner after this season-he survived Marty, why not this? Second-I have to consider the possibility that this whole thing is actually working and that the total makeover may not be the only viable outcome. It could be that the answers to those questions won't be really known until the middle of next season. We may have to just wait around and see.

 

[Elephant]

Well, that addresses the players but what I was really driving at was coaching. After a season and a half, the offense is showing serious signs of life under the Zorn, Smith, Lewis, Meidt crew. How do you make the changes you need to make while not stunting that or forcing the offense to start over again from scratch?

Neo, I think what you're looking for is what we all want to see. Get rid of Vinny! #2 priority (Of course #1 would be a change in rationale from Dan Snyder). The thought of keeping Zorn to see if he can really develop has crossed my mind as well. If that were the case then someone like Holmgren would be the first thought to play GM, someone who knows Zorn and can tutor him along instead of Vinny being Snyder's hatchet man constantly chopping at Zorn's knees.

If Zorn stays he will need a real offensive coordinator, not this rule by committee we have going on here now. Sherman Smith must go and have Lewis become the offensive coordinator, I think that could work. But how long is Lewis gonna be up for that? He is in his late 60's. Also, the one thing that Zorn needs to keep if he stays is his intensity, no more medium!

I would get rid of Blache and bring in a defensive mind that will do away w/ the ridiculous idea of having a safety play 30 yards of the ball on 3rd and 7? Have you guys ever noticed that it seems like we stop more 3rd down plays under 4 yards than we do over? I think I am more comfortable when I see our D have the team at 3rd and 1 than I am when they have them at 3rd and 9.

Ultimately, I don't think Zorn will pan out and we do need to blow up this organization and start from scratch. If not, the lingering affects of this tumultuous season will always play a part in the future of this team

I think what many Redskins' fans want to see, including me, is smash mouth football back here in DC (Russ Grimm w/ the proper support staff in place).

 

[Yusuf06]

Zorn got zero out of Thomas and Davis.

Then all of a sudden Lewis arrives and the play calls change to put in the crosses that Thomas runs well and the tight end screens and short outs that Davis excels on and the Redskins passing game is all of a sudden moderately productive after being putrid for weeks?

Lewis might have been calling Bingo when he got the call from the Redskins, BUT as anyone who has followed the NFL over the past 20 years realizes that Lewis has FOUR Super Bowl rings.

That's not a mistake. He has FOUR Super Bowl rings working on the staffs of Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren.

He knows what he is doing and it is showing on the field.

Many of us, me included, made more than a few jokes at his expense. However with very limited time to learn the offense and personnel, he's brought about marked improvement in an offense that was literally putrid under Zorn's direction. He's improved us from 13.7 points/game prior to the bye to 20.8 points/game after. I can only imagine what he could do with a decent OL, QB and a full offseason.

I didn't put much faith in Lewis due to his lengthy hiatus and the fact that he'd never called plays. In retrospect, the latter may have been more a function of the other offensive guys he worked with being incredibly talented rather than an indictment of his skills.

Obviously a lot depends on what we see from the offense down the stretch but color me moderately impressed with what he's accomplished and more than a little embarrassed about being so wrong about him. Lewis' success with virtually the same players Zorn was given shows the great degree to which Zorn was in over his head as an OC/playcaller.

O.K., Neo, looking at it from that perspective-whatever this "system" has morphed into that seems to be producing results-would it not then be necessary to retain Zorn? If a new coach or (admittedly unlikely) hire a GM, wouldn't they bring in their own "pet" system and as you say disrupt or, perhaps, interrupt the progress being made currently?

Assuming the Parcells rumor has no validity, my first choice would probably be Gruden with Shanahan close behind. However, since none of those options are likely, I wouldn't be too opposed to to giving this group another year with two major changes. Numero uno would of course have to be Vinny's departure. The other is that I'd really like to see Sherm Lewis get a shot at HC. Given what he's accomplished with our offense in such a short amount of time and with so few resources in critical areas, I think he's earned an interview at the very least.

The advantages are obvious. He would give us much needed new blood at HC while at the same time providing a good bit of continuity so that we wouldn't find ourselves in the familiar position of scrapping players simply because they don't fit the new system.

This team is so close to being genuinely bad, that in my mind the idea of just getting back to mediocre/average as a short/intermediate-term goal has a lot of appeal.

 

[Sarge]

Any converts?

And did I see touchbacks or was I hallucinating?

 

[SkinsOrlando]

I have loosened on my stance towards Zorn the past few weeks. I actually want Zorn back next year, Vinny needs to go period. The team is still playing hard, that comes from the top down, they could have easily quit on Zorn and I haven't seen that. If the players are still behind Zorn give him year 3, years ago HC used to get 5 years, now their lucky to get 2. Obviously this team needs re-structured but I don't see it at the coaching level right now. I do however wish Gano had been here all year, our record would look better, that kids got leg.

 

[Jimbo]

Up 24-13, I saw us aggressively throwing the ball in order to get another TD. Not sure if Zorn had anything at all to do with that or if Sherman Smith just allowed Sherman Lewis' pass play calling to continue. Can't be a convert without knowing exactly what Zorn was responsible for in this game.

Gano had back-to-back touchbacks and would have had another had it not been for that crappy penalty call after Fred Davis' first TD. All his kickoffs looked good and he hit two 40+ FG's. The young man is off to a good start.

 

[BobDiamond]

Well...Is Zorn learning? He has shown an ability to lead and in keeping the team together. There is something very nice there. But his stubborness early with decisons in personnel on the field and play calling are still out there not to mention the preparation for the season was inadequate.

He says he's better than a year ago, and the decisions he made seemed okay at the time. He still seems unwilling to view these decisions as mistakes.

I'd rather find more reasons to keep this intact now that there are promising signs. But keeping Randel-El as PR, this one simple and obvious bad decision, for me tips the scale against keeping him. There is a real problem making judgments in regards to loyalty to players versus putting younger up and comers on the field.

 

[Ax]

The only one that might be gone, is Zorn.

Vinny ain't going nowhere. If we knew things would continue to progress as they have the last month, then there's be no need for change. Including Vinny.

If Zorn can live without his balls, I'm willing to give him his 3rd year, as of right now. We'll see what the last 4 games bring.

Vinny, and Snyder, are not the boogeymen everybody needs them to be.

I'll stick with my previous thoughts.

Plus, I'll add to the kudos for Gano's debut. It's only one game, but it was a damn good start for the young man. Now, keep it up.

 

[Sarge]

this is where I'm confused. What is Zorn calling and what is he not calling? I have heard he calls 3rd down plays but then I see him talking to Campbell all the time too. If I knew that he did A B C then I would be able to say if I thought he was learning or not.

that is the problem, we don't know. For all we know the danny could be calling plays from his box.

But these guys are actually playing and being competative for Zorn. They could have mailed it in weeks ago. I gotta think that is coming from the coach.

Mind you, I'm not a real Zorn fan. But on the other hand, I'm sick to death of this "organization" being torn down every two years in an attempt to make something better from scratch

 

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I'm definitely waffling on this now. Part of me really thinks Zorn, Lewis, and Campbell need to come back for another year because they have it figured out. Another part of me can't forget how bad Zorn and Campbell have been until the last 5 weeks or so. I think I'm leaning towards bringing them all back (at least everyone on offense).

Just to throw a monkey wrench in the whole discussion, I think everyone still wants Vinny out. If we get a new GM, is there any way he doesn't fire Zorn to "bring in his own guy" anyway? If we want to keep Zorn, do we have to keep Vinny?