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Kirk Cousins Development Tracker

Elephant said:
Because he wasn't a great QB.
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Chris said:
Apparently that's really just a matter of perspective. ;)
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Yes, it is a matter of perspective.

Gruden was a backup to a young Dan Marino. He made the NFL. So he had a few choices. Ask for a trade, sit on the bench for 10 years, or go play football. Kind of like being a backup to a young Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

Without NFL experience, I assume demand was low from other teams. They already had their backups. So he left for the AFL to try and prove himself.

Predictably, in the AFL he dominated and won 4 titles as a QB.

He was named the best QB in the 30 year history of the AFL. Above another guy named Kurt Warner.

That's not to say he was a better QB than Kurt Warner who later developed into a star. I believe Warner was only in the AFL for 3 seasons.

But he could definitely play. Unlike Warner, he never caught on with an NFL team later.

So it's a matter of perspective. I don't think being Dan Marino's backup means that you suck. In comparison to the hundreds of other QBs that try to make it to the league and fail it's pretty good.

Of course it's a far jump from being a top starter in the league though.
 
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In the "Holy crap, did that really happen?" category, here's Jay Gruden vs. Kurt Warner in Arena Bowl 10.

Jay threw 5 TDs, Warner threw 4.

This one of one Jay's 4 championships.

This game was ranked as one of the best AFL games in history.

 
Love ya McD5 but Jay played minor league ball.

If he was THAT good,he'd have been a starter in the NFL.

Red Skelton once said "If you've got talent, they could put you behind a brick wall and you'd still come through."

That never happened with Jay Gruden the football player.
 
Or, at least on an NFL roster. Can't imagine an actor choosing to play the lead in a dinner theater in Schenectady rather than being an understudy on Broadway.
 
McD5 said:
Yes, it is a matter of perspective.

Gruden was a backup to a young Dan Marino. He made the NFL. So he had a few choices. Ask for a trade, sit on the bench for 10 years, or go play football. Kind of like being a backup to a young Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

Without NFL experience, I assume demand was low from other teams. They already had their backups. So he left for the AFL to try and prove himself.

Predictably, in the AFL he dominated and won 4 titles as a QB.

He was named the best QB in the 30 year history of the AFL. Above another guy named Kurt Warner.

That's not to say he was a better QB than Kurt Warner who later developed into a star. I believe Warner was only in the AFL for 3 seasons.

But he could definitely play. Unlike Warner, he never caught on with an NFL team later.

So it's a matter of perspective. I don't think being Dan Marino's backup means that you suck. In comparison to the hundreds of other QBs that try to make it to the league and fail it's pretty good.

Of course it's a far jump from being a top starter in the league though.
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I smell the snake oil again.

Look, you can say nothing, nothing at all to convince me or 99.99% of the world that Jay Gruden was a great QB. Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana...they were great QB's.

Perspective means nothing, you can perceive what you want, but it changes nothing. Arena football dominance means absolutely nothing when discussing greatness at the QB position.

Look, you don't need to sell me on anything about Gruden, I'm on board. But I think you do yourself an enormous disservice when you spout off such nonsense that he was a great QB.
 
Chris said:
Or, at least on an NFL roster. Can't imagine an actor choosing to play the lead in a dinner theater in Schenectady rather than being an understudy on Broadway.
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Hey...what's wrong with Schenectady?
 
Chris said:
Or, at least on an NFL roster. Can't imagine an actor choosing to play the lead in a dinner theater in Schenectady rather than being an understudy on Broadway.
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Are you people saying Schenectady can't hit a curveball?
 
McD5 said:
That's really just a matter of perspective. He was a great QB in college at a school that slings the ball.
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Ah, no. That's not a matter of perspective. It's a simple fact. He was a minor-league QB.

As Crash Davis once said, being the best in the minors is a dubious honor. And he was right.

As for the NFL, there's no shame in not being able to beat out Dan Marino. Few could.
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Scott Mitchell couldn't beat out Dan Marino either. But he became a starting NFL QB. Backup QBs know exactly how they get to be starters in this league. That shouldn't be lost on fans of a team going into the season with Kirk Cousins under center.

That's not what happened with Gruden. He was an undrafted rookie signed on to the practice squad before getting cut a few days later and who never had any real legitimate shot of making the team. Arena football was literally his only chance to play. Good for him for doing well in the Arena leagues, but he was never more than a short-term practice squad player in the NFL. And we don't need to pretend otherwise in order to think he's a good coach now.
 
Is there any data supporting the premise that a great QB makes a great head coach to begin with? It's probably largely irrelevant anyway.


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Yes there is data. The data says that good & great NFL QB's do NOT make good head coaches. History bears that out, and why I wasn't enamored with Spurrier or Zorn. Also why I never gave Dallas a snow ball's chance with Garrett.
 
To be fair, Garrett was never a very good QB. :)
 
Well, my father came to Washington in the late 1950's when Otto Graham was the coach of the Redskins. The HOF former quarterback of the Cleveland Browns was by all accounts a mediocre to poor head coach in the NFL.

Bart Starr in the late 1970's and early 1980's wasn't a very good coach coming back to Green Bay either.

I don't see as much of the Super Bowl QBs coming back to be coaches in today's NFL.

These guys retire with too much money and players like John Elway and Peyton Manning can buy into a franchise and be the GM and President of Football Operations and hire their own coaches.
 
Henry said:
Ah, no. That's not a matter of perspective. It's a simple fact. He was a minor-league QB.

As Crash Davis once said, being the best in the minors is a dubious honor. And he was right.



Scott Mitchell couldn't beat out Dan Marino either. But he became a starting NFL QB. Backup QBs know exactly how they get to be starters in this league. That shouldn't be lost on fans of a team going into the season with Kirk Cousins under center.

That's not what happened with Gruden. He was an undrafted rookie signed on to the practice squad before getting cut a few days later and who never had any real legitimate shot of making the team. Arena football was literally his only chance to play. Good for him for doing well in the Arena leagues, but he was never more than a short-term practice squad player in the NFL. And we don't need to pretend otherwise in order to think he's a good coach now.
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It really is a matter of perspective Henry.

I'm talking big picture, like in life.

If your son for example, becomes a QB and sets records at Louisville, and then actually signs with an NFL team he's already beaten the odds.

I know El was an accomplished goalie, but I don't think at least that he was signed on a Champions League roster in Europe. That alone is a tremendous accomplishment.

Then he dropped down a league and beat future NFL MVP and SB MVP Kurt Warner to win his 4th Championship. You'd be a pretty proud father. You'd tell that story for the next 30 years. We all would.

So yes, it really comes down to perspective.
 
McD5 said:
Then he dropped down a league and beat future NFL MVP and SB MVP Kurt Warner to win his 4th Championship. You'd be a pretty proud father. You'd tell that story for the next 30 years. We all would.
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So the rest of the team didn't matter, it was Kurt Warner against Jon Gruden?
 
So Jay Gruden is McD5's son. THAT explains everything. ;)
 
McD5 said:
It really is a matter of perspective Henry.

I'm talking big picture, like in life.

If your son for example, becomes a QB and sets records at Louisville, and then actually signs with an NFL team he's already beaten the odds.
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Yes, compared to me, Jay Gruden is an awesome QB.

Just like compared to blind 60-year-old with one leg, I'm an awesome QB.

But compared to an NFL QB, Jay Gruden is not even a good QB. Neither am I. :) And that is the perspective that matters in this discussion.

Then he dropped down a league and beat future NFL MVP and SB MVP Kurt Warner to win his 4th Championship. You'd be a pretty proud father. You'd tell that story for the next 30 years. We all would.

So yes, it really comes down to perspective.
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He beat Kurt Warner on 50-yard indoor field with seven mediocre players on each side. That perspective is irrelevant when discussing an NFL resume.

It is a matter of perspective when discussing a life. Not when talking about a specific NFL career.
 
tr1 said:
Which brings to mind an off-topic thought. In my youth, I played on baseball/softball teams with guys who had been drafted by MLB but didn't make the cut early on. They, to the man, excelled at one or two facets of the game. Their skill sets confined to those facets startled me when seeing them up close or when their product snapped into my mit or flew over 300 foot fences.

The worst player in any major league sport is way, way beyond 'us normal joes' when it comes to athletic skill. They may look like the slowest, unorthodox, inaccurate, bumble handed guy on a professional league field, but they are gifted when it comes to comparison to the general public.

Yeah, I call these guys bums, but I know they're pretty good...compared to most of us. They just suck when playing against elite players.

Sorry for the side tangent...
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No that's true. I remember years ago, when I still followed the Bullets, WTEM had Tim Legler, who had come into the league undrafted and was playing for us at the time, on to talk about the team. This was back when he was a fair shooting guard who had a nice 3-point shot and not much else. They opened up by mentioning that he was 3-sport varsity letterman and an all-around stud in high school and college. And I was like "Tim LEGLER?" That slow outside shooter was this awesome superstar? Naaaaaaah. :)

Then it occurred to me, to get to the pros in any capacity you have to be pretty amazing amongst us mortals. Hadn't really thought about it until this discussion.
 
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