RG may yet suceed, but were the firsts wasted?

If this should just have been stuck in another post, feel free to bitch slap me and close it. I'm not trying to stir the controversy pot.

I've struggled with this over the last week or so, both how I feel and how to make a post that isn't meant to be a comparison, bash or bitch fest.


I'm not sure the latter is possible when discussing the issue so just out with it. Is it possible to answer the question until we can view the totality of RG's career? Is a failure/inability, for whatever reason, to be the guy within and during the first 3 years enough to argue the picks were wasted, even with the success of season 1? If he goes on to get us one or more Superbowls, are they automatically justified? I think what really hit me was seeing how many holes we have, especially on Defense. I think about what those firsts could have netted us? Though no guaranty we'd have made good use of them. I see us going into year 4 with him still developing and, questions aside from how that will go, I have to wonder if the picks can ever be considered a wise decision. It just seems like you have to get immediate, consistent and ongoing play for that price. Maybe the obvious answer is, if we win Super Bowls, Hell yes it was worth the picks. But I can't seem to make that answer feel satisfactory and I'm not sure why.

To me the reason we're so talent void has nothing to do with Griffin. That cap penalty just killed us. So I would say just based on the one season he's already given us in 2012 it was worth it. One amazing season in a collection of about 20 without any hope whatsoever makes it worth it to me. I am also one of the few evidently who thinks Griffin's days as an elite QB are far from over. It wouldn't shock me to see him set the world on fire after our dumbassed team trades him to a team that will surround him with talent that will protect him though. My God what that kid could do with protection.

Good point on the cap penalty, and you may be right there. Thanks for the reminder. Tried to block that one out completely.

I don't believe they were wasted, but I do believe Shanahan turned them into a waste. He was at the end of his career, more concerned with getting into the HOF himself, rather than trying to build anything for the future. Hence McNabb, the salary cap violations, playing RG3 on a bad wheel and finally quitting.

What if I told you we would trade away all those picks and we ended up with a franchise qb...would it really matter which QB?

At this point I'm comfortable with saying I would have rather have had a different QB with one of those draft picks and the ability to use the rest of those draft picks. So I guess yeah, I believe those picks were wasted, in hindsight of course. I do believe what the Shanahans did with him had a major part in how I feel now like McD5 suggests below.

If he didn't get hurt then maybe I'm not saying this at this point but the fact is he has been injured. We have been short on talent for the obvious reasons, the RG3 trade, the ineptitude of the front office, the cap penalty which may or may not fall under the former, etc. This team has been put together with smoke and mirrors for so long, we sorely miss first round talent in key positions, namely OL, DL and DB. Hey I supported the RG3 trade without ever seeing him in a game, it was a big risk and we took it and lost. At least we got one great season out of it and a division championship. I don't see Griffin giving up so the future is nothing but one big question mark.

There are two answers to this question ...

One, at the time the trade was made, it made all the sense in the world. The Redskins were 20 years into the search for a franchise QB and treading water in the NFL at best. And the QB in question almost universally getting hailed (ahem) as The Real Deal. The move was bold, decisive and the price absolutely justified in that context.

In hindsight, doubts creep in because Robert has not been able to stay on the field. Which has hindered his development immeasurably. Meaning, we just don't know at this point 1) if he'll ever be able to be counted on stay healthy, and 2) if that will keep him from ever maxing out on the freakish physical gifts and apparently strong work ethic he's blessed with.

Personally, I still think the kid could become a great NFL quarterback. If he could stay healthy long enough to learn to play the position NFL-style. But I am having more and more doubts about his ability to overcome his own helter-skelter body language on the filed. He will play again in burgundy and gold--the investment and potential are simply too high to avoid that even if the team felt inclined to. When that happens, to me it will simply be about whether or not he can stay on the field long enough to overcome his own high-wire act approach to playing the game.

Until and unless we address the line problems Griffin will be unable to stay healthy...nor will any other QB. It's so depressing as a fan.

Not sure I agree with that, CT.

Robert's injuries haven't been by getting crushed in the pocket, or even because he was running for his life. The line really hasn't been a factor in any of them.

The first knee injury against the Ravens in 2012 was due to a late, awkward fall to the ground, after a great run, that left his leg exposed to a 320 pound behemoth in the open field.

The second was rolling out and planting awkwardly against Seattle in the playoff game--no one touched him.

The third, last week, was again planting or landing awkwardly while trying to throw back against his body at a million miles an hour--no one touched him.

Once is a freak accident. Three times?

I'm not questioning the competitiveness, just his apparent inability to not keep spiking himself.

Oh I won't dispute that he needs to find a way to stay healthy, but the reason he's had to run for his life so much is he USUALLY gets right around 2.5 seconds before the pressure from the right side and up the middle has been getting to him. yea he runs a lot but he's not given time to let a play develop, when he is he tends to kill it.

If nothing else, it diminishes the banter over the Clinton/Champ trade which many just could not get over.

Like many, I was OK with the trade at the time. Guilty of the feeling that we might have a guy who would finally give us something that has not been seen on this team since Sonny.

The Gibbs stable of QB's was adequate enough to get us those trophies, just suppose he had an elite young QB to grow up with during those years. How many more trophies would be in the case?

Kirk looked great against Philly but I still think Griff would have made that last throw to Garcon in stride to win the game.

On the other hand, maybe Kirk will prove to be Bradyesque, I just don't know and the current set of circumstances leave nothing else to do but sit back and enjoy the season.

Not ready to give up on Griff but I also realize that circumstances may not allow him to grow here, we're too impatient primarily because of 'the cost'.....that would be the waste.

"Life is like a box of chocolates......."

Robert will get another chance here--I have no doubt about that. He'll just need to stay on the field.

Luckily, he'll get to do it behind a line that just kept its QB clean on a 48-attempt day and netted 34 points.

Om said:

Not sure I agree with that, CT.

Robert's injuries haven't been by getting crushed in the pocket, or even because he was running for his life. The line really hasn't been a factor in any of them.

The first knee injury against the Ravens in 2012 was due to a late, awkward fall to the ground, after a great run, that left his leg exposed to a 320 pound behemoth in the open field.

The second was rolling out and planting awkwardly against Seattle in the playoff game--no one touched him.

The third, last week, was again planting or landing awkwardly while trying to throw back against his body at a million miles an hour--no one touched him.

Once is a freak accident. Three times?

I'm not questioning the competitiveness, just his apparent inability to not keep spiking himself.

Click to expand...

I agree with your sentiment, but not sure you can say it was three times. In that Seattle game he was already playing on a bum knee and probably shouldn't even have been in to begin with. The 're-injury' would have most likely happened to anyone playing on an injured knee in that state.

DixieFlatline said:

I agree with your sentiment, but not sure you can say it was three times. In that Seattle game he was already playing on a bum knee and probably shouldn't even have been in to begin with. The 're-injury' would have most likely happened to anyone playing on an injured knee in that state.

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That's a valid perspective.

But let's not forget Bob played, and played well, against Philly and Dallas to close out the playoff run before the Seattle game. Should he not have played in those games either? He seemed to protect himself pretty well in those games, at least I don't recall any "oh my god" moments.

Against Seattle, he was simply rolling out, stepped funny, and re-injured the knee. Freak accident #2?

This year's oops against JAX was eerily similar to the Seattle one ... rolling out, a little bit out of control, and delivering late what could and should probably have been simple throwaways or jog out of bounds. Freak accident #3?

I hope you're right though brother, and Bob's just been unlucky and a bit of a victim of circumstance. I'm just saying that having seen him go down yet again, on yet another awkward play he arguably could have avoided with just a little less fire and a little more ice, I'm starting to have some doubts he'll be able to avoid similar problems once he comes back again.

Which would suck.

"Until and unless we address the line problems Griffin will be unable to stay healthy...nor will any other QB. It's so depressing as a fan."

CT, what games are you watching? Because they sure aren't Redskins games.

We have one of the top offensive lines in the country this season. Cousins had all day to throw. 0 sacks.

I have no idea why this keeps popping up.

It's not the O-line.

Om said:

There are two answers to this question ...

One, at the time the trade was made, it made all the sense in the world. The Redskins were 20 years into the search for a franchise QB and treading water in the NFL at best. And the QB in question almost universally getting hailed (ahem) as The Real Deal. The move was bold, decisive and the price absolutely justified in that context.

In hindsight, doubts creep in because Robert has not been able to stay on the field. Which has hindered his development immeasurably. Meaning, we just don't know at this point 1) if he'll ever be able to be counted on stay healthy, and 2) if that will keep him from ever maxing out on the freakish physical gifts and apparently strong work ethic he's blessed with.

Personally, I still think the kid could become a great NFL quarterback. If he could stay healthy long enough to learn to play the position NFL-style. But I am having more and more doubts about his ability to overcome his own helter-skelter body language on the filed. He will play again in burgundy and gold--the investment and potential are simply too high to avoid that even if the team felt inclined to. When that happens, to me it will simply be about whether or not he can stay on the field long enough to overcome his own high-wire act approach to playing the game.

Click to expand...

If I am being honest, I have to say I hope Robert has played his last game as the QB of the Washington Redskins. You have to know when to cut bait. Some don't like to hear that he is injury prone, but there is a sufficient body of evidence to support that. 3 times in 5 years he's had significant injuries. He has had only 1 complete, healthy season in the last 5 years...Heisman winning senior year in college.

Om, you suggest the trade made all the sense in the world because we hadn't had a true franchise QB for 20 years. I think that is inaccurate. You don't draft a QB with his style of play by mortgaging your future 1st and 2nd round draft picks. I know there are other variables involved with the overall lack of talent on our roster over the past several years...good reason to refrain from selling the future for a QB who plays with such a reckless style as Robert.

When BB and others started suggesting Robert could be on the radar, I followed him closely in his senior year at Baylor. He was dynamic, but I kept clamoring against the idea of him coming here because he would never last in the NFL playing like that.

In 3 games since Gruden has been the head coach, you have seen an offense with no ability, no real identity under Robert in Houston, transform to a team with an offense that seems to be hitting on most cylinders. Robert does not appear to have a grasp of the offense and Kirk does. Sure, Robert came out against a terrible Jacksonville team with a vengeance...but why? Because they ran him a couple times. That loosened up that defense to give him time. Ask McD5...that is not a Gruden style offense. Kirk comes in, the offense settles down and puts up how many points and how many yards in 7 quarters?

For those still holding on to the belief that Robert is still the future, I just don't get it. I am not even going to say that Kirk is...who knows? He may not be, but Robert won't get it. I said it 3 years ago when I watched him in college, I thought I may be wrong about him at the end of his rookie season, I was willing to give him a little time to heal in his 2nd year even though he should have be held out until after the bye, and I am convinced he will never lead us to anything more than a division championship after seeing him go down...likely for the season...again.

Cut bait...move on.

Yeah, his athleticism gets him into trouble for sure. I recall watching some of the off-season stuff where he was jumping and prancing around just for the pure joy of it.

He needs to realize that on the field this same joy can get him broken and perhaps with this last crazy injury he'll get it.

He did have a good slide in the game tho, so he's capable of training his physical skills in a positive direction.

El,

You are entitled to your opinion, my friend. I just don't happen to share it. I think the price paid for Robert was the going rate to trade up to #2 for a shot at a franchise QB. It was high--yes. But dictated by the market. Anything worth having comes with a price.

And while I value your scouting report from his senior year at Baylor, I valued more the opinions of countless football people all over the country who agreed that while it would take time for him to develop into an NFL passer, the upside was so high he was absolutely worth the risk.

I guess our time-frames are different.

I also don't agree that it's time to 'cut bait.' I think that's rather reactionary, given that the man has played in 17 professional football games. The upside I and many others saw in him in 2012 is still out there. The question for me has simply become whether he'll be able to realize it, by surviving the development period until he learns how NOT to hurt himself on no-contact plays. TThe Redskins need to let that play out. The potential return is too great not to.

That's sitting here today, of course. If Kirk ends up turning into Drew Brees sans mole over the next X number of weeks, has us winning and percolating nicely toward the playoffs, and it's clear he and Jay are on the verge of some magical marriage ... well, the conversation might change. But let's wait and see about that.

Om said:

That's a valid perspective.

But let's not forget Bob played, and played well, against Philly and Dallas to close out the playoff run before the Seattle game. Should he not have played in those games either? He seemed to protect himself pretty well in those games, at least I don't recall any "oh my god" moments.

Against Seattle, he was simply rolling out, stepped funny, and re-injured the knee. Freak accident #2?

Click to expand...

That's true, he did play well. I guess I've just played sports with weak ligaments in the past (or with others in the same condition) and just seen one little twist set it back weeks even if they had played on it previously.

I'm hoping he can avoid problems moving forward as well. He does do some awkward things though because he's got the physical skills to do it. Of course, this hope is mainly hinging on the fact that his major injuries have all been different. That may be misguided on my part.

I hear ya Om, but I still think you're discounting the entire picture when discussing the value of the trade and it was a clear picture at the time. You have to remember, and by you...I am talking plural, we had just been hit with a tremendous cap restraint that was going to already set us back years. How can you justify digging the hole deeper by spending what you call "fair market value" for "potential". Other teams could afford the cost, after the cap hit...we simply couldn't justify such a risky investment. And you have to realize it was a risk.

I would have less a problem with it if we hadn't just lost likely 5-6 mid-tier role players through the cap hit. That is likely in the neighborhood of 8-10 starters over a 3 year period after the trade that lead us here. A return on investment that I feel will never materialize.

I know this is all conjecture, but when making investments...I don't make risky ones. I am not a day trader. I am more willing to cut bait now and take out lumps with Kirk. You guys obviously aren't.