A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
Injuries or not, this one we gotta have.

Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Disagree Disagree:  0
Post of the Year Post of the Year:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28
  1. #1
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-19-09
    Location
    Bethesda Md
    Posts
    5,977
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default Zorn Is Making Case For His Dismissal

    I don't think Dan Snyder is going to fire a coach during the season again as he did in 2000 with Norv Turner. He has realized that is one of the football taboos, unless a coach vacates his responsibilities as Petrino did in Atlanta, you let him finish out the season.

    So, I expect Zorn to be here regardless of how the team performs in 2009.

    That said, I think he is very close to making a case for his own ultimate dismissal as HC.

    Why?

    1. He has fumbled with the development of Jason Campbell and continues to refuse to challenge Campbell to make plays. The play after the 34 yard Portis run was set up for the quarterback to challenge the defense down the field. Instead Zorn decided that having his #3 WR throw the ball on the run was a more efficient way to try and get positive yardage. Regardess of whether Randle El was able to get off a pass or not, isn't it MORE important for Campbell and his teammates to see #17 make the plays in that position to propel the team forward. Zorn keeps talking about being a teacher, but that seems to go by the wayside when the chance to run a trick play comes along. Ditto here for the drive after the defensive stand on the 3 yard line. 3 straight running plays, no passes to try and get the first down and show some confidence in the entire offensive unit. This has to have Snyder and Cerrato shaking their head as Zorn appeared to be the one almost guaranteeing that Campbell would be better in 2009 and yet he seems to be the one holding him back getting a fair chance to compete.

    2. Zorn fails to get the younger players on offense integrated into the flow of the game. Malcolm Kelly was supposed to be new and improved. To Zorn I guess that means he can now count on the 6'4 receiver for 1 catch for 6 yards each week. Fred Davis also provided a cameo role in helping to chip on Justin Tuck on the outside. Ironically, though neither player was ever isolated with a chance to make a play on the ball, especially in the red zone.

    Jim obviously didn't watch the last 2 Gibbs years here in 2006 and 2007. The club struggled to score points because the offense never varied itself from Moss downfield and Portis between the tackles. He is falling back into that dependency despite the fact Moss is now 30 and Portis is 28.

    With all the open space the Giants provided yesterday and the fact that both starting corners were ailing, you can't tell me a targeted plan to use Kelly on crosses and slants would not have served to make this offense more productive.

    Thomas may not be ready to contribute but I think Kelly and Davis are and if they were on a different team WOULD in fact be making those contributions.

    3. Zorn runs a loose ship. Washington under Zorn has committed a lot of penalties and each week we continue to see players take unsportsmanlike 15 yarders that cost the team. The reason why they continue to exhibit this behavior is because there is no sanction. Landry knocks Jacobs down out of bounds because no one is going to sit him for the balance of a game to challenge him to be intelligent and accountable on the field.

    The Giants don't have the most talented skill players in the NFL but Coughlin runs a disciplined and structured ship. That is obvious to all.

    You may beat NY but NY is not going to beat itself with those kinds of mental mistakes.

    Meanwhile, Washington is not good enough to overcome these lapses, even against lesser competition like the Rams or Lions as we saw last season.

    The time is ticking on Zorn and his ability to grasp what it means to be a HC in the NFL.

    He has a book of philosophy 1,000 pages deep but this football team doesn't need a professor, it needs a leader.
    Last edited by Bulldog's Twin; 09-14-09 at 08:57 PM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  2. #2
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-27-09
    Location
    Hemet, CA
    Posts
    71
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Very well stated, brother. I'm growing more and more inclined to agree with your prediction that Zorn may be coaching his last season for the 'Skins with each passing week and resulting "inmates running the asylum" fiasco.

    It may be that Medium Jim is just not ready for NFL prime-time yet. Perhaps one day he may be, but it's becoming pretty clear he's not at present. Sometimes it takes a 2nd run in a different city to 'get it.' It happened that way for Belicheat, and to a lesser degree Gruden and Dungy among others. One day Zorn may be considered one of the top coaches in the league....

    That does absolutely nothing for our cause (plight?) this year, however. So one more time, barring a minor miracle, we will climb on the off-season coaching carousel, hoping like hell that THIS TIME we come up with a proven winner.

    Where have I seen this before I wonder? Hmmm....
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  3. #3
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-19-09
    Location
    Bethesda Md
    Posts
    5,977
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Zorn is 55 years old. I don't see another HC shot in his future. This is his chance.

    The fact he seems to be failing most with the position he has been most closely associaed with as a coach (and player) is indeed troubling.

    Jason Campbell right now should be a MUCH better player than he was under Gibbs, who did nothing to develop him in 2005 and 2006 until Brunell went down with injury.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  4. #4
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,121
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)

    Default

    I can actually understand the 2nd play from scrimmage/reverse to Randle El. Zorn was trying to keep the defense guessing and keep the heat off of Campbell on the first drive. Had ARE just thrown the ball away, Campbell has a 2nd and 10 and the Giants still don't know whether it will be a run or pass.

    Aside from that, you make a lot of valid points BD. I hated the choice of Zorn as Head Coach and he really hasn't done much to make me believe he'll be successful in the NFL. I really want him to be successful but he continues to give the impression that he's in over his head.

    What this team needs right now is a no-nonsense, blue collar coach a la Bill Cowher/Mike Tomlin or an offensive mastermind like Mike Shanahan but above all, it has to be a guy who won't put up with losing and big egos. I'd love for Zorn to be that guy but I won't be holding my breath.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  5. #5
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    08-29-09
    Location
    Newport News, Va.
    Posts
    233
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    I wish I could say I've seen a lot of improvement out of Jason Campbell in his years in the NFL.

    I've seen more spark out of our backup QBs than I ever have out of Jason. Even when Jason was playing against backups in the preseason he showed no spark.

    But it could be argued that Campbell hasn't grown because he's had to switch offensive systems almost every year.

  6. #6
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-31-09
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    169
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Regardless of whether Zorn is making his on-doing all himself, the more troubling scenario is the fact Snyder is the one that keeps hiring coaches like Steve Spurrier and Jim Zorn. So we get rid of Zorn. Then what? Do I have any faith that Snyder will replace Zorn with any kind of quality coach? Not really. That would mean that he would have to cede control, and I just don't see Dan Snyder doing that, despite the fact that is precisely what is needed.

    We constantly over the past 11 years talk about need for coaching changes, yet, Dan Snyder is the one that does the hiring. Where is Snyder's accountability for the Zorn hiring?
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Covering the 'Skins, Nats, Wizards, and Caps

    http://www.dcprosportsreport.com

  7. #7
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-16-09
    Location
    CTU
    Posts
    2,997
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Air Force

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PennSkinsfan View Post
    We constantly over the past 11 years talk about need for coaching changes, yet, Dan Snyder is the one that does the hiring. Where is Snyder's accountability for the Zorn hiring?
    Therein lies the problem. And there's not a damn thing you or I or 90,000 season ticket holders can do about it. Until there are no longer arses in seats, we're hosed
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Formerly known as ...............Sarge

  8. #8

    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Boynton Beach, FL
    Posts
    2,751
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)

    Default

    In Snyder's defense (ugh...) his signing of Spurrier was a pretty exciting and well received one. Until it didn't work out.

    Bringing back Gibbs and teaming him with G. Williams and then Saunders was considered a master-stroke. Until it didn't work out.

    The hiring of a coaching neophyte due to the apparent unavailability of a top tier talent, and when it appeared Jim Fassel would be our lot in life, was considered by many to be a ballsy, out of the norm move by an owner that loves big names. Until now, when it isn't (yet) working out.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    It is awesome to be ME.
    Proud BGO Premium Member since Day 1.
    (a/k/a Monte51Coleman)

  9. #9

    Join Date
    06-30-09
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    3,962
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    A better question might be if Zorn ever really had a chance. Seriously.

    Cerrato, a non-coach, made the decision to jump to the West Coast offense on his own after Gibbs left, even though the team had been built for a completely differently style of offense. No attempt was made by the front office to bring in an experienced WCO QB. No effort was been made to bring in the type of lineman typically favored by WCO coaches. The WR upgrades were made through the draft, which is good but not quick help.

    Zorn had the right idea last year with the "Mid-West" Offense but that disappeared sometime during the drilling put on the team by Pittsburgh and never showed back up. It certainly didn't make an appearance Sunday in the Meadowlands.

    I mean, you don't see Bill Parcells decide to go 3-4 somewhere and keep all the same players he had before when the team ran a 4-3. What made Vinny think Zorn could succeed running a WCO with a team built for a Gibbs/Coryell offense?
    Last edited by Neophyte; 09-15-09 at 12:45 PM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    hailus redskinnus
    COYS

  10. #10
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-16-09
    Location
    CTU
    Posts
    2,997
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Air Force

    Default

    That's always been my unanswered question? Why the WCO? People have the scheme figured out and know how to defend it, and JZ certainly ain't Bill Walsh. Why? Why? WHY?
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Formerly known as ...............Sarge

  11. #11

    Join Date
    04-11-09
    Location
    Montclair, VA
    Posts
    4,292
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    1
    Virginia Tech

    Default

    Been posing that question since they made the hire. Tried to bounce it off Vinny himself a while back, but wasn't allowed past the palace guards.

    Personally, I don't think we'll ever know--whatever the thought process was there, it involved factors I suspect the principals know will never stand up to scrutiny in the light of day. We'll get the 'official' explanation someday, and it will contain partial truths, but it won't tell the whole story. Been around this long enough to know that if there was a clean explanation that the team was comfortable with publicizing, it would have come out by now.

    Add this one to the list ... alongside, for example, why they told Steve Spurrier he'd get the strong GM he asked for when they hired him, said so in the press, then a few weeks later announced they were staying in-house w/ Vinny. If Spurrier had been on board with that change, he would have said so then. That he never did spoke volumes. Even louder were the studied evasive non-answers to the direct question when put to Snyder and Vinny ever since.

    Some questions have answers that those in the know understand have to stay under the rug. Way the world works.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    Eschew obfuscation.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    06-30-09
    Location
    Dallas
    Posts
    3,962
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    That's always been my unanswered question? Why the WCO? People have the scheme figured out and know how to defend it, and JZ certainly ain't Bill Walsh. Why? Why? WHY?
    If I had to guess, which is all we can do for the reasons pointed out so capably by Om just above, I would say Vinny made the decision because the WCO is what he cut his teeth on in SF when he was a there and because he wanted to do something completely different in an effort to make his mark. Ego is a powerful motivator and can quickly blind anyone to the reality of their current situation.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    hailus redskinnus
    COYS

  13. #13
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-16-09
    Location
    CTU
    Posts
    2,997
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Air Force

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    If I had to guess, which is all we can do for the reasons pointed out so capably by Om just above, I would say Vinny made the decision because the WCO is what he cut his teeth on in SF when he was a there and because he wanted to do something completely different in an effort to make his mark. Ego is a powerful motivator and can quickly blind anyone to the reality of their current situation.
    All the more reason for him to go along with Zorn and JC at the end of the season if things don't click
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Formerly known as ...............Sarge

  14. #14
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-27-09
    Location
    Hemet, CA
    Posts
    71
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    That's always been my unanswered question? Why the WCO? People have the scheme figured out and know how to defend it, and JZ certainly ain't Bill Walsh. Why? Why? WHY?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    If I had to guess, which is all we can do for the reasons pointed out so capably by Om just above, I would say Vinny made the decision because the WCO is what he cut his teeth on in SF when he was a there and because he wanted to do something completely different in an effort to make his mark. Ego is a powerful motivator and can quickly blind anyone to the reality of their current situation.
    Another shot in the dark here, but the decision to change the offense and hire Zorn may have gone a little hand in hand; none of the big-name HC's were proponents of the WCO while Zorn had been coaching in Holmgren's version of it for a while. Add to that Vinny's prior experience with the pure, original system in SF -- good call Neo -- and he and the Dan probably saw all the pieces falling into place...

    That scenario is undoubtedly nowhere near the truth, but it's so emiinently plausible given what we all know of Snyder's impetuous nature, which too often leads to snap decisions without adequate forethought. From his first day as owner to the present we've borne sad, frustrating witness to the results of his compulsions.

    Going off half-****ed in the NFL is a surefire way to spin your wheels indefinitely.
    Last edited by BigRedskinDaddy; 09-15-09 at 01:50 PM.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  15. #15
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Posts
    502
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedskinDaddy View Post
    Very well stated, brother. I'm growing more and more inclined to agree with your prediction that Zorn may be coaching his last season for the 'Skins with each passing week and resulting "inmates running the asylum" fiasco.
    On this point I really do feel sorry for Zorn. After the Baltimore game last year he tried to step up and take control of his team. He then found out it wasn't his team it was Snyder's.

    That's one of the reason's I think we'll have a hard time landing any established coach or hot coordinator. No one wants to put up with Snyders meddling and if you have other options you take them.

    The only way I see one of the name guys coming here is for over the top silly money. They'll soak it up for a few years, then move on.
    0 0 0 0
     
     

  16. #16

    Join Date
    04-12-09
    Location
    O'Malley's Forsaken Borough
    Posts
    253
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Colgate

    Default

    When you rely on a P/RB to provide half of your offensive production on trick plays, you know something is wrong.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    a/k/a "iheartskins"

  17. #17
    BGObsessed
    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Section 106/ Eastern Shore
    Posts
    936
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Navy Salisbury

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    That's always been my unanswered question? Why the WCO? People have the scheme figured out and know how to defend it, and JZ certainly ain't Bill Walsh. Why? Why? WHY?
    This is my half joke/half serious answer:
    because it looked so much more modern than what Gibbs was throwing out there.....even though the WCO has been copied and used by almost every team in the NFL and the Skins are only 10-15 years behind everybody else in using it.

    b/c Andy Reid had beaten the Skins many times with it......
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    :evil:Bring on the 12th Man!!!!!!:evil:
    It Is What It Is.......
    (The Official Blog of Walking Deadman)

  18. #18

    Vescere bracis meis

    Join Date
    07-15-09
    Location
    Mechanicsville, VA
    Posts
    804
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    VCU

    Default

    We all know it's too early to write Zorn's epitaph in DC and we all hope things work out. Still it would be a lie to say the guy isn't definitely on the hot seat and will be all season. I can't argue with any of the points BD made. If this season ends up like last year Zorn will be gone, no doubt about it. If Zorn doesn't work out, what then? Let's look at the big three.

    Holmgren – Had total control in Seattle. I can't help but think he'd want control here too. I don't like that, but I don't like Vinny either so I have a dilemma there. Has a ring in GB where he was just the coach. That's good. Won two other NFC championship games. Also Good. Would run a version of the WC offense, just like Zorn. Not a big fan of the WCO.

    Cowher - Firery. Defensive minded. Ok. Large tree of current and former head coaches that worked under him. Good (I guess). Has a ring. Had a very good organization behind him. Hmmmmmm. This is the part that gives me pause. It's no doubt that the Steelers organization is one of the best in football. Frankly, we don't have that.

    Shanahan - Two rings. Great! Those titles came before he had total control of the organization and while he still had a HoF quarterback. Hmmmm. Another WCO guy. Ehhh. Seems to have a great grasp of the offensive side of the ball but had some horrible defensive teams when he was making all of the GM decisions.

    All of these “big three” guys have some questions IMO. The WCO offense will not work without the right QB. We seem to have some questions there. Could Cowher work with a guy like Vinny? Would any or all of these guys demand personnel control? Do we want that setup? Certainly all three of these guys would bring something to the table as well. If you put a gun to my head I guess I'd prefer Cowher, but I could be persuaded on Holmgren. I don't like Shanahan.

    I liked the idea of a guy like Zorn when he was given the job. I want him to do well but honestly I haven't warmed up to the guy yet. He hasn't seemed to be able to bring anything special to the table either. Let's hope he turns it around and all this is just talk.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin.
    H. L. Mencken

  19. #19

    Join Date
    04-11-09
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    16,000
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Blog Entries
    93
    Marine Corps Virginia

    Default

    Great post Hog. On the other hand - the most obvious pink elephant in the room is that Zorn has exactly 1 season of NFL head coaching experience under his belt. 1. That he's 'on the hot seat', if that's factual, would tell you all you need to know about our owner and front office. Because here are the facts:

    1) Snyder had some decent head coaching options, guys like Gregg Williams and Jim Fassel, who had a wealth of coordinator and previous head coaching experience at the pro level.
    2) Snyder spurned obvious and experienced choices to select a total head coaching unknown, who lacked even pro coordinator experience.

    Those 2 facts make for only a couple possibilities:
    1) The 'Zorn is on the hot seat' and 'Zorn has to make the playoffs this season' staples the media trots out every 5 minutes are false. I would not discount this, as having been relatively close to the Skins organization for a few years, I saw several instances where universally held 'truths' turned out to be nothing more than media fabrications. I think it's quite possible that Snyder thinks Zorn has what it takes and is prepared to give him 3 or 4 years to prove it. Neither the media nor most fans are prepared to believe that - but if you don't believe its possible, see the next possibility.
    2) Snyder is a moron. Because only a moron hires a total newb head coach with zero experience and major questions at some key positions, and expects to instantly create a perennial playoff power. It's incomprehensible.

    I think Snyder is a lot of things, but a moron he is not. While I see Zorn as a very risky selection, I'm not personally ready to send him packing. I believe he's got more rope this year than we may be willing to believe.
    0 0 0 0
     
     
    Subscribe to our BGO Mailing List

    You ain't bonafide

  20. #20

    Join Date
    06-30-09
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    3,567
    Post Responses
    Thanks, Likes, & More
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Indiana

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    2) Snyder spurned obvious and experienced choices to select a total head coaching unknown, who lacked even pro coordinator experience.
    Boone, I don't have the long-term in-depth knowledge of the Redskins/Snyder relationship that most of the folks here, especially people like yourself, do-but I have been doing a lot of research on the topic and this point brought up a question. In the light of the many comments I've read about Snyder and people's problems with him and his organization-is it possible that his choice of Zorn may have to do with the fact that HC's like those mentioned have traditionally had what seems to be more "final say so" in things than Snyder is comfortable with and Zorn's inexperience made him more...let's say...compliant?
    0 0 0 0
     
     

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. WPC: Making the case
    By Pappas in forum Sons of Washington
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-24-09, 08:49 AM

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •