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PFT: Report: Redskins interested in Vincent Jackson

MikeSr619 said:
it is fully justifiable but when you try to comment on threads about the team you always come from the angle of being angry and bitter.
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Mike, EVERYONE should be angry over 4-12. EVERY ONE. If you're not, then something is wrong
 
Sarge said:
Mike, EVERYONE should be angry over 4-12. EVERY ONE. If you're not, then something is wrong
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Agreed. I was pissed about 8-8 in 2008, because we had so many close games we *SHOULD* have won. 4-12 was simply horrid.
 
MikeSr619 said:
yeah sarge, they would be. but thats ONE year. You say ELEVEN YEARS every time you go on and on about the organization. I was very upset about 4-12 but I dont use it as a springboard to put down every move this team makes.
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You haven't been paying attention. I thought Allen was a good move. Shanny is an improvement over what we had, whatever that was.

McNabb is an upgrade, although I still think we could have waited a year to find a QB.

Things are starting to be done in a quasi-sensible manner again. But the results are yet to be determined.

Fact is, we still have the remnents of a 4-12 team. Therefore, I don't expect much this year.

An overpriced wide reciever won't take us to the promised land
 
What worries me most about this is that the coaches must not feel that good about Thomas or Kelly by going after so many WRs and having interest in Jackson.
 
I found this interesting note on VJ on Bill Williamson's ESPN blog. I highlighted the section indicating one reason why the rumors about him becoming a Redskin may have some validity to them. Shanny likes him.

Could a Vincent Jackson trade be nearing?
June, 29, 2010
JUN 29
8:15
PM ET
EmailPrintComments
50
By Bill Williamson
The San Diego Union Tribune is reporting that the San Diego Chargers could end up trading Pro Bowl receiver Vincent Jackson, who is planning to hold out as a result of not signing his restricted free-agent tender. He could miss, at least, the first 10 games of the season before returning to qualify for an accrued season.

[+] Enlarge
Icon SMI
San Diego Chargers receiver Vincent Jackson may be on the trading block.
There has been talk for several days that Jackson could end up being traded. Teams that could be interested include Seattle, Washington, Chicago and Denver, although there is virtually no chance San Diego will deal Jackson to an AFC West rival.

I wrote earlier Tuesday that San Diego general manager A.J. Smith will not cave in this matter in regards to both Jackson and left tackle Marcus McNeill, who is also planning to stage a hold out.

However, if the Chargers can get something of value for Jackson and get the matter resolved, I don’t think that would be caving. That would be a sign of Smith showing he is in control and that he will ship players out of the loveliest city in the NFL if they don’t want to play by his rules.

I think San Diego could get some solid value for Jackson. He's is big, strong and fast receiver who had 68 catches last year and is getting better. However, there is a big knock against Jackson. He has two drunken driving arrests since entering the NFL and is likely facing a short NFL suspension in 2010.

Jackson is looking for a huge contract (think north of the $50 million Miami gave Brandon Marshall after acquiring him from Denver in April) and some teams may be leery of giving him that deal. Still, Jackson has had fewer legal issues than Marshall and did not create the team problems that Marshall created during his tenuous time in Denver. Miami gave two second-round picks to Denver for Marshall. Jackson could fetch at least a solid No. 2 pick.

I think teams like the Seahawks, Redskins and the Bears would all be willing to give up a nice pick for Jackson. The Seahawks and Redskins would also likely be willing to pay him what he wants.

I know new Washington head coach Mike Shanahan is a big Jackson fan. He nearly drafted him in 2005 in the second round when Broncos took the late Darrent Williams at No. 56. Jackson was next on Denver’s draft board. He went five spots later to the rival Chargers and the Broncos were not happy about it. The Redskins have long been known to spend big and to trade draft picks, and trading picks for Jackson could be a fit.

If San Diego can get good value for Jackson, and if it doesn’t think it can keep him for the future, they should make the move now.

As for McNeill, the San Diego Union Tribune reports he is not on the block because the team eventually wants to sign him long term. I have also heard that McNeill may not be as dead set as Jackon on holding out for the long haul.
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http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/14318/could-a-vincent-jackson-trade-be-nearing
 
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Walking Deadman said:
What worries me most about this is that the coaches must not feel that good about Thomas or Kelly by going after so many WRs and having interest in Jackson.
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Nailed it. If they don't step up this year, they'll both be selling cars at Easterns in 2011
 
MikeSr619 said:
yeah sarge, they would be. but thats ONE year. You say ELEVEN YEARS every time you go on and on about the organization. I was very upset about 4-12 but I dont use it as a springboard to put down every move this team makes.
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They made the playoffs twice in that span. Twice. Look at the teams that have made the playoffs that many or fewer times, and I bet you'd say the same things Sarge is saying about them.

EDIT: 3 times, but Snyder inherited the 99 team, and subsequently destroyed it the following year.
 
Ok now the revisionist history is kicking in.

Destroyed it the next year? He did nothing to the offense which broke NFL scoring records in 1999 and had 2 1000 yd receivers coupled with a Stephen Davis in his prime. Snyder tweaked a 30th ranked defense that kept us from making any more playoff noise. That D added Ray Rhodes and several key players (whether you like the Bruce Smith pick long term the fact is he had IIRC 9 sacks that year and made a HUGE impact on the D line we hadn't seen since Mann retired). That ruined team lost in 2000 because of absurd numbers of injuries to the offense. The D went from 30th to 5th...ruined my backside. This is what loses me in most of the Snyder debates, revisionist history is rampant.
 
Love this thread because we've got multiple people fired up, not over a trade, or a player acquisition, but just over the potential rumor of it being considered ) Talk about passionate fans... Lets just keep the *personal* edge out of it. Everyone's got a different perspective and is arguing their positions, that's what it's all about. We all have a right to our assessment, and whether anyone feels we are overly optimistic or incurably pessimistic - well, even if that's the case, that's perfectly fine too.

On the VJ thing, I think he's a pretty damn good WR. He doesn't deserve the contract he's looking for. You can make the 'look who he has to share the ball with and he's still got solid #'s' argument. But I think its just as easy to argue that he benefits greatly from being a secondary target. Bottom line - no one can be sure that he's a #1/future star WR in waiting, and we'd be foolish to commit to him and pay him like one. I also think the comments about the overrated impact of a WR on team success are well taken.

I suspect that as with most of the other moves Shanahan/Allen have made, we're not likely to see them throwing stupid money at a player because they 'like' him. And that's even assuming the Chargers really are trying to get rid of Jackson.
 
I like VJ, but bottom line, the asking price to aquire him - a possible (1st) or (two 2nds) plus a new contract with atleast $25m guaranteed, is just not worth it. Heck, I don't think there's a WR in the league worth that. The only one IMO, that I may consider would be Andre Johnson. But let me reinerate, MAY BE.
 
MikeSr619 said:
but then again I dont expect you to EVER see my side of things. that wouldnt be your way.
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Mike, we're talking football, this isn't personal. Cool your jets dude.

CounterTrey said:
Ok now the revisionist history is kicking in.

Destroyed it the next year? He did nothing to the offense which broke NFL scoring records in 1999 and had 2 1000 yd receivers coupled with a Stephen Davis in his prime. Snyder tweaked a 30th ranked defense that kept us from making any more playoff noise. That D added Ray Rhodes and several key players (whether you like the Bruce Smith pick long term the fact is he had IIRC 9 sacks that year and made a HUGE impact on the D line we hadn't seen since Mann retired). That ruined team lost in 2000 because of absurd numbers of injuries to the offense. The D went from 30th to 5th...ruined my backside. This is what loses me in most of the Snyder debates, revisionist history is rampant.
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Nothing? Bringing in Jeff George and making it clear he wanted him to start is nothing? Shipping one of the long-time Redskins, lockerroom leaders and a big part of the heart of the team in Brian Mitchell is nothing? Bringing in washed up Andre Reed is nothing? Talk about revisionist history...

Snyder has made a habit of destroying any chemistry the team had. Bringing in George and getting rid of Mitchell is up there in chemistry-destroying moves he's made as chief dummy.
 
Boone said:
On the VJ thing, I think he's a pretty damn good WR. He doesn't deserve the contract he's looking for. You can make the 'look who he has to share the ball with and he's still got solid #'s' argument. But I think its just as easy to argue that he benefits greatly from being a secondary target. Bottom line - no one can be sure that he's a #1/future star WR in waiting, and we'd be foolish to commit to him and pay him like one. I also think the comments about the overrated impact of a WR on team success are well taken.
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Well said. He's a good-great WR, but he's no #1 and definitely isn't worth Brandon Marshall money. No way, no how.

I suspect that as with most of the other moves Shanahan/Allen have made, we're not likely to see them throwing stupid money at a player because they 'like' him. And that's even assuming the Chargers really are trying to get rid of Jackson.
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On point again. This move reeks of the Brandon Lloyd trade - and if Snyderatto was still in charge, I think it would already have happened. Thank god there is a new era at Redskins Park.
 
Lanky Livingston said:
Mike, we're talking football, this isn't personal. Cool your jets dude.



Nothing? Bringing in Jeff George and making it clear he wanted him to start is nothing? Shipping one of the long-time Redskins, lockerroom leaders and a big part of the heart of the team in Brian Mitchell is nothing? Bringing in washed up Andre Reed is nothing? Talk about revisionist history...

Snyder has made a habit of destroying any chemistry the team had. Bringing in George and getting rid of Mitchell is up there in chemistry-destroying moves he's made as chief dummy.
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Might have wanted George to start but he never did, so that's a bit of a moot point especially when you consider the fact that Marty who was given 100% control and had the option to cut JG actually gave JG an extension, NOT Snyder.

Bitchell getting canned can be argued either way, but that's an entire thread.

Andre Reed (again why do anything but bring a backup WR when our O had broken the NFL scoring record the year before -only to be surpassed by the Rams that same season- and had 2 1000 yd WR's?), Jeff George (a backup), and canning Mitchell while also making the moves responsible for taking the D from 30th to 5th in one season is what ruined the team though huh? Yep you betcha, revisionist history and hyperbole run amok.

2 monumental mistakes in Snyder's tenure here, not canning Norv immediately, and hiring Vinny after Marty canned him. That if anything is going to be put on one or two moves is what's ruined this franchise, not some relatively minor roster moves in 2000.
 
CounterTrey said:
Might have wanted George to start but he never did, so that's a bit of a moot point especially when you consider the fact that Marty who was given 100% control and had the option to cut JG actually gave JG an extension, NOT Snyder.
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Wrong on both accounts. George started 5 games in 2000, and it was Snyder who signed him in 2000 for 4 years, $18M. If that's not a huge sign saying "I want you to be the starting quarterback," I don't know what is. This after Brad Johnson threw for 4,000 yards the previous season, so why bring in a QB at all?

Bitchell getting canned can be argued either way, but that's an entire thread.
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However you want to paint the picture, there is no question that Mitchell was a leader on the team. No question whatsoever. And after short stints in NY and Philly, it was clear he still had ability. Bad decision all around.

Andre Reed (again why do anything but bring a backup WR when our O had broken the NFL scoring record the year before -only to be surpassed by the Rams that same season- and had 2 1000 yd WR's?), Jeff George (a backup), and canning Mitchell while also making the moves responsible for taking the D from 30th to 5th in one season is what ruined the team though huh? Yep you betcha, revisionist history and hyperbole run amok.
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Umm, are you really going to sit there and tell me the 1999 Redskins broke the NFL scoring record? Because that's patently false. I think you need to do some reading on your Redskins history - you're off on quite a few points.

2 monumental mistakes in Snyder's tenure here, not canning Norv immediately, and hiring Vinny after Marty canned him. That if anything is going to be put on one or two moves is what's ruined this franchise, not some relatively minor roster moves in 2000.
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You realize that the offense he "barely touched" was engineered by Turner, right? 10-6 and winning the NFC East does not get a coach fired. You also left off firing Schottenheimer, bringing in Spurrier, bringing in Zorn, signing Deion Sanders on your list of huge mistakes.
 
MikeSr619 said:
1300 #2 WR? yeah, thats not right. The ONLY reason he has played second fiddle out in SD is because of Antonio Gates and 90% of the receivers in the NFL do that too. He is a steady #1 and proved it the last 2 seasons on the field.
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Vincent Jackson has never gotten 1300 yards in his NFL career.

and it wasnt personal..it was factual.
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Whatever helps you sleep at night, I'm just trying to talk football here. There is nothing personal, and for the last time: if you DO have a personal problem with me, take it to PM as I've urged you to do before.
 
Also, Jackson has been suspended 3 games for violating the substance abuse policy. I think this all but eliminates a Redskins trade for him.
 
MikeSr619 said:
my bad, 1200. you got me by 100 yards. the point is still there no matter how you try to overlook it.
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1167 last year was his career best. I'm not overlooking any point, I just happen to disagree with it. I don't see Jackson as a legit #1 WR, at least one that is *proven* that he can carry the load. Would Cooley and Davis provide the same relief that Gates did? Possibly - but my point is, I'm not sure we need Jackson @ BMarsh type money to do that. Galloway can still burn and get deep on single coverage, and we haven't even really seen what Thomas and Kelly can do with a legit QB throwing them the ball.
 
Yeah, Gates >>> Cooley. Davis...still an unknown, but he played his ass off in Cooley's absence last year. I've got a good feeling about the kid. The two of them combined are gonna be dangerous.

BMarsh was a total head case. That whole training camp temper tantrum was a league-wide joke. *BUT* - he had caught 100+ balls the two previous seasons, for 1300+ and 1200+ yards. Then he caught 100+ balls for 1100+ yards with Kyle friggin' Orton throwing him the ball. THAT'S the reason everyone loved him. I'd like to see what Vince Jackson can do with a subpar QB throwing him the ball before he gets BMarsh money.
 
Lanky Livingston said:
Wrong on both accounts. George started 5 games in 2000, and it was Snyder who signed him in 2000 for 4 years, $18M. If that's not a huge sign saying "I want you to be the starting quarterback," I don't know what is. This after Brad Johnson threw for 4,000 yards the previous season, so why bring in a QB at all?{/QUOTE]

Nope you are wrong. George came in when Johnson was injured in week 9, and then replaced Johnson when he came back and stank although JG was 1-2 in BJ's absence so he wasn't setting the world on fire. He wasn't brought in to start. Robo started him 2 games after Norv was canned but again it was a shakeup going to the backup ala Babe Lauffenberg, not JG starting for even a majority of the season and doing it because he earned the job. Why bring a QB at all, oh I dunno in case your starter goes down for 3 games like he did that year? Nahhhhhh, that's CRAZY.



However you want to paint the picture, there is no question that Mitchell was a leader on the team. No question whatsoever. And after short stints in NY and Philly, it was clear he still had ability. Bad decision all around.
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OK I get it, ditching a 4th string running back, 4th string emergency QB, 1st string kick returner was what was keeping that team firing on all cylinders. If cutting him was what "ruined" that team then it wasn't nearly as good as you or anyone else bills it. Yea Mitchell was a leader, he was also a locker room "bitcher" who had the same effect at times that Lavar did and since his production had been steadily declining he became expendable. NY and Philly picked him up and he had one or 2 solid seasons (funny they both cut him too, they were backstabbers too right? The cut was justified in the sense that he was a shadow of his former self but still ran that all world mouth like he was on top of his game. Then he proved the point by running his mouth non stop after leaving (loyalty...yea right)...as if the whiner hadn't been payed millions to do what he did. Get over it, you got cut move on and grow up. He never could, which lends credence to the reports that he was a pain in the ass behind closed doors more than once.



Umm, are you really going to sit there and tell me the 1999 Redskins broke the NFL scoring record? Because that's patently false. I think you need to do some reading on your Redskins history - you're off on quite a few points.
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Yep that's a stat I will never forget as it was obscured within the same season by the Rams. We broke it, they broke it further. Why is that such a stretch of the imagination when BJ had our most productive QB year ever, we had 2 WR's over 1000 yards and Stephen Davis had the best single season of any Redskin in history at that point? The reason it didn't get more billing is Norv coached another classic choke job and that team lost many games by actually being outscored with a 30th ranked D to go with the #2 O. I think the D allowed something crazy like 25 points a game that season.


You realize that the offense he "barely touched" was engineered by Turner, right? 10-6 and winning the NFC East does not get a coach fired. You also left off firing Schottenheimer, bringing in Spurrier, bringing in Zorn, signing Deion Sanders on your list of huge mistakes.
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-ASIDE: Are you TRYING to pick a fight here, because I'm doing my darndest to skip over your smart assed tone and stick to a legit debate. First I need to go research my team because I am evidently clueless, then I'm too dumb to know very basic knowledge of a season I obviously remember better than you do when I'm the one who called out Norv to begin with? Gotcha.

No I didn't realize it at all, that's why I called him out because I had no clue what his tenure consisted of. I didn't leave off anything, those didn't happen after the 99 season which it was said is when Snyder ruined this team. Oh and I'd have canned Schottenheimer too the second he said " I see no reason to upgrade at the QB position. Tony Banks had a fine year and will be our starting QB next season" along with refusing to fire or move Jimmy "High School Offense" Ray as the OC. Bar none the most embarrassing offensive year In Skins history when opposing teams were literally calling out or next play at the line of scrimmage. To say defenses laughed at us would be an understatement. Throw in the treatment of Darrel green (talk about alienating your team, the Bitchell cut pales in comparison to alienating the team's leader who EVERYONE looked up to before the season even starts. I could go on but that would require facing some unpleasant facts. Snyder has made a clusterfudge of things no doubt but he had a hell of a lot of help. If Schotty does one thing and opens his door and starts teaching Snyder like Gibbs does then I'm convinced we're not sitting here debating this and Schotty would have coached this team for several years, hell he might still be our coach.

Highly talented teams that were the softest in the league and couldn't win a close game to save their lives. Losing over 2/3 of our division games, being known leaguewide as Club Med to the point that guys like Bruce and Deion were calling around the league telling other slackers to come join the fun! That's a Norv Turner team alright!

I couldn't care less about the first 25 scripted plays of a game when the opposing D shows stoutness and the guy abandons the run at the first sign of true adversity. I also couldn't care less about his genius when the proof is in the record which pretty much sucked donkey balls under Norv. Norv made it embarrassing to be a Skins fan for the first time in my life and I put a mountain of the blame for the crappitude of the franchise on his shoulders.

10-6 don't mean jack anyone who watched that team could see it was vastly under-performing and soft as a babies snuggly. An owner who had even a slight clue about how to run a team would have canned his butt in a NY minute. The writing was clearly on the wall, that team was going nowhere but down....six years of pure embarrassing crap aren't erased by a half a season of success coupled with another half of mediocre choke festivals.
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The 1999 Skins did not break the single-season scoring record. That mark was held by the '83 Skins until the '98 Vikings broke it, and then after that the '07 Pats broke it.

As for the debate, Norv probably should've been fired during or after the '98 season, but the ownership hangup kept us from doing much of anything, and by the time Snyder got the team it was probably too late. But having four coaches after Norv in nine seasons (Shanahan now the 5th) is just absurd. Firing Marty was just stupid.......I love the people who say "well, Marty refused to bring in a GM"......hmm, exactly what GM did Snyder bring in after he fired Schotty? Spurrier was a slacker, but I think the reason he walked after two years was because he got sick of working for Snyder (can't see why you'd walk from $15 million more). Bringing in Gibbs made sense but it was a short-term fix......wasn't realistic to think that Joe would stay past the duration of his contract. And the way this organization apparently treated Zorn was contemptible.

Again, its nice to have Mike and Bruce in here now, but the quote from the other thread about how Dan "can sleep at night because he has a competent coach that will enable him to be less-hands on" is a bit alarming. Coaches that have back-to-back SBs aren't available every season. Snyder is going to have to go to a guy with less pedigree sometime in the future....lets see how he behaves then.

Oh, CounterTrey.....while Norv was here longer than he should have been, the fact is that he hasn't been here for nine seasons. Blaming him for, as you put it, this franchise's "crappitude" (and I'm assuming you mean the present) is a bit out there, don't you think?
 
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