A Burgundy and Gold Obsession
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  1. #1

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    B The Biggest Question ...

    You can't have this conversation anywhere but here - because 'fans' will absolutely freak out on you, the mob will angrily converge and attack you, for even raising the question.

    But the foremost question in my mind as I watch the earliest moments of the 'Dwayne Haskins era' is whether Haskins is just another flawed diva who talks the talk, but who is really not the pure and selfless leader we were told to expect?

    And before I go further - please keep in mind I am only raising the question. Without being in that locker room or knowing Haskins, there is no way to know at the present time. I am 100% open to the idea that Haskins is a fine, selfless, genuine leader.

    First - a quick flashback to RG3. Setting aside his obvious (and in some ways, groundbreaking) talent... Griffin came into the league a master of the motivational quote. 'No pressure, no diamonds'. He wrapped himself in supposed love for the military, draped himself in the flag, and was all about the team. But it didn't take long to see cracks in the facade. When the coaches weren't 'using him correctly', he made his displeasure known in the worst way - passive aggressively - either through his overly aggressive father, through vague social media posts, or through his agent or always willing media types. As his first season or two progressed, there was a palpable sense that there were 2 Griffins, the one he showed whenever a camera or microphone was nearby, and another when they weren't. Rumors crept in that teammates didn't gravitate to the guy, that he kept himself separate from the team, and wasn't the 'leader' that was publicly asserted. Griffin also seemed to resist the direction of his coaches at times. While the team was winning, that behavior was just an annoyance. But when the rubber hit the road, and the team inevitably hit bumps in the road, those issues were really exacerbated. One could make a strong argument that Griffin himself, by refusing to honestly share his injury status with the team late in his rookie season, and then demanding to return as starter right out of the gate, was the biggest factor in his ultimate implosion in DC. The bottom line on Griffin was that he was always mostly about Griffin. If he ever had the respect of his teammates, he pissed most of it away during those crucial early years by constantly making it all about Robert, and almost never about what was best for the team.

    Those aren't facts. But I believe that's a fair assessment based on what I observed. And I was a fan that drank the Koolaid and desperately wanted Griffin to prove he was worth the King's ransom we gave up to draft him.

    Fast forward to this season and Dwayne Haskins. Brother Om and I watched every one of Haskins college starts at Ohio State shortly after he was selected with the 15th pick. We were impressed. Not only with Haskins clearly elite arm strength, but with his pocket awareness, ability to move when necessary, and most importantly with his accuracy. The caveat that has be attached to any assessment was the very small sample size. Making a determination, whether positive or not, based on one magical season as a college starter, was always going to be a risk. One thing that we couldn't really assess from film review of Haskins college career was what kind of leader the kid was? How smart was he? How does he deal with adversity? Those things are tough to determine with any young QB, but especially when you are talking about a guy that faced very little adversity of any kind as a college starter. That's not to say he didn't face tough opponents, or even that he didn't shine in big moments, in high pressure situations. But how would he handle his leadership role, the guys around him, his own internal mentality and poise when things go horribly, horribly wrong.

    Like RG3, almost every word uttered by Dwayne Haskins since being drafted by the Redskins and prior to being thrust into game action has sounded like a coaches dream. Listening to Haskins, it would be hard not to walk away impressed with his intelligence, his selflessness, and his character. He sounds calm, rational, articulate, and like the son and young leader any parent would be proud of. That may be who he is.

    But since being thrust into action in a dire, dismal season of dysfunction, coaching upheaval, and endemic losing, cracks have started to show. Coming in for garbage time in several games, and not wowing with his performance, Haskins comments and body language has been (for me) shockingly negative. I don't know whether his post-game demeanor, uttering barely audible, terse, and vague responses to media questions was due to his disappointment in the team not being competitive or in his own performance or whether there are more ominous things going on. Just as occurred during Griffin's early days, rumors that Haskins 'didn't have a good grasp of the playbook'. wasn't 'working hard', and 'was in over his head under center' have persisted. The word on Haskins was that he 'wasn't ready', and to be fair, when he has gotten the chance to step in he hasn't looked ready. That's all well and good, since with rare exceptions, rookie NFL QBs (even those destined for great careers) routinely look flustered and shaky early in their careers. That has not really concerned me. But his demeanor after those early games raised some flags for me. As with Griffin - it's not so much what Haskins has said, but the way he said it, and his overall body language and demeanor, that seemed to indicate there may be trouble or dysfunction brewing.

    The latest moment of potential concern? We've all seen the clip from yesterday's game with Haskins imploring his OL 'What can I do to help you?' Was that moment representative of Haskins asserting himself as a young leader? Or was that Haskins mugging for a nearby camera? I don't know. What we do know was that Haskins words seemed to be received in one of two ways... none of the players seemed to be engaged in the conversation (with the possible exception of Morgan Moses) but even worse, several of them seemed to respond with outright scorn. I'd have preferred Haskins simply do what most QBs would've done and stated 'You guys have to block better! I cannot make reads or get anything positive done back there when I'm running for my life! Come on guys - we are better than this!' or words to that effect. Yes - one could interpret Haskins words as a genuine selfless attempt to rally the troops. But you could also look at it more cynically as him throwing them under the bus as an unproven rookie, and doing so knowing a camera was taking it all in nearby.

    I hope that this kind of stuff is merely a reflection of one of the worst seasons in Redskins history and all of the frustration and ineptitude that goes along with that kind of the season. Many of those involved on this roster will hopefully be gone at seasons close. Hopefully we get a new GM and an aggressive and competent head coach who can take control of the situation and provide an environment where Haskins can grow and thrive as opposed to the pathetically tepid support a hapless Bill Callahan seems to offer.

    But if the worst case scenario comes to fruition, that Haskins isn't the hardworking, smart, student of the game and selfless leader we were lead to believe, and that becomes apparent down the stretch of this miserable season, we need to start over with what looks to be a very high draft pick.

    We can't afford 3 or 4 seasons of drama-filled RG3 like dysfunction at QB.

    We just can't.
    Last edited by Boone; 11-18-19 at 12:52 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Haskins is basically the LaVar Arrington of QB's, but without even really flashes. M1-A1 physical attributes, factory-second intellect.
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Well, here we are, the rock bottom of Redskins history. We finally made it!
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    Formerly known as ...............Sarge

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I thought SOS resigning on the golf course was the lowest. I was wrong.
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I honestly don't think there was ill intent with him asking the lineman, just frustration and immaturity. That's the sort of statement that would come off as tone deaf and not really inspire much of anything, because it's still putting all the actions upon a different party.

    If he's going to lead, he needs to take accountability for his own work and get it taken care of, outside of the delivery situation. I'm hoping he can somehow learn that even in this organization, where there is so much accountability lacking from the top down. There absolutely are players who seem to recognize the need to take accountability properly, but with the management being so poor at it...it's no real wonder that the failure is so systematic.

    Given the state of things, Snyder truly needs to just come out and take his lumps like a big boy, which would inspire his organization much more than anything else he can do. That would be the sign of a culture change with a positive trend. Instead, I assume we'll just get more of him hiding behind others, with Allen telling something that can only be observed.

    A "damn good" culture is easy to see, even if the results aren't completely in line, as there are always hallmarks of why the results aren't quite there yet. You would never need to defend it, as the result of the culture being good would be that you would take accountability for things not working, not make excuses on how it's a mystery to you.

    The culture is so bad, and the denial so strong, with so much victimhood, that I do not really see the results getting better in the near future. They could surprise me this off-season, but I highly doubt it. If Bruce is still in charge of anything at all by the time the new year rolls around, I expect the same results next year, because I'm not insane.
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  6. #6

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I think there are 20 players or so on this 53 man roster I'd keep. This team needs a major rebuild and that's why moving Allen out and bringing someone in who's actually capable of honestly assessing player talent/motivation/ability/character and gutting the roster where it needs to be gutted is so essential.

    It's a shame Snyder didn't send Allen packing with Gruden and bring in a quality GM right away. It's going to be hard for a new GM to assess Dwayne Haskins coming in off the street right before the next draft. And yes - I do believe Snyder will move Allen out of the football GM spot in the post-season. It's really the only thing he CAN do to stop the bleeding, squelch fan anger, and have a chance at landing a quality head coach. I'm going to predict it happens almost immediately after our final game.
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  7. #7

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I wonder what Alex Smith's role in grooming Haskins is/has been? If Smith, as I believe, is determined to come back and be the Redskins starter, it's hard to imagine he's really engaged in any serious effort to help Haskins. I know many of you write off that possibility, but I guarantee you Alex Smith doesn't believe his career is over. He's going to try and come back. That's a wildcard in our whole QB situation that very few are considering. From what I've seen, if Alex Smith is able physically to make it back and able to play, it could actually be the best thing that ever happened to Dwayne Haskins. The opportunity to be an understudy behind a guy who really knows how to play this game and be an NFL QB (including things like how to speak to the team, to the media, carry yourself off the field, etc...) could be career changing for Haskins.
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  8. #8

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I don't think it's possible to gauge much of anything about individual players on this team. The Redskins have become a Black Hole into which players disappear. I don't see that changing anytime soon, so Haskins' demeanor ... well, it doesn't really matter.

    That's what I think.
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  9. #9

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    I don't think it's possible to gauge much of anything about individual players on this team. The Redskins have become a Black Hole into which players disappear. I don't see that changing anytime soon, so Haskins' demeanor ... well, it doesn't really matter.

    That's what I think.
    That feels a little like a big cop out Henry. I get your overall premise. The org is a black hole of suckitude whose gravitational pull no talent or success can escape from. I'm not even going to offer a counter-argument because I don't have one. However - player qualities, talents, character, and performance still exist. They are not entirely defined by the org.
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    After that little meeting on the sidelines, the offense scored two touchdowns. Just saying.

    I am not inclined to give Scherff a long term contract at this time. I'd like for the team to franchise him in the off-season and then trade for a first and second rounder or a pair of second rounders (2020, 2021) and a third in 2022. Re-sign Ereck Flowers in the off-season. Keep grooming Wes Martin. Draft a solid right guard in the 4th.

    Tony Bergstrom should be released ASAP.
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  11. #11

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    On the first touchdown, Haskins was immediately faced with a jailbreak but was able to get off the screen to Guice - who turned it into a TD with pure effort. On the ensuing successful 2 pt conversion, guess what - Haskins was again under total assault by the pass rush and was able to avoid it by stepping up and delivering a good ball. OL did nothing to help him on that TD drive. They were terrible.

    On the 2nd TD, McLaurin made an absolute circus catch on a ball that was underthrown and should've been intercepted. Haskins was under extreme pressure on that throw as well. And on the TD, he made a good play, exploiting another big pass rush.

    So if the 2 TDs are supposed to represent evidence that the OL stepped up after Haskins interacted with them? Sorry - but that's not what happened. I think Haskins himself referenced this in so many words when he said what changed was he said 'give me the ball'. In other words, the improved 2nd half offense was in spite of the help he got, not because of it.

    I don't know what any of that means regarding either Haskins mentality or his leadership ability. I'm glad they scored and he seemed to get fired up late, even if those were garbage time TDs.
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  12. #12

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Agree to disagree.
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy Burner View Post
    Agree to disagree.
    I think you changed the subject. I'm not talking about Haskins play. I'm talking about his psyche, his mental state, leadership ability, personality. Those things are critical to future success, not whether he played better or the team played better at the end of a lost game.

    The questions posed are 'what is Haskins about' and 'does he have the mental mindset and leadership abilities to be successful'?
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    We can't afford 3 or 4 seasons of drama-filled RG3 like dysfunction at QB.

    We just can't.

    Which is why we dump him in the off-season and draft Burrow. But...knowing Bruce Allen, he will wait until the 2nd round, trade up late in that round, draft Tua, when he could have just waited until the beginning of the 5th round because there is no word yet that Tua will ever play a down in the NFL. But hey, the risk is worth the reward!
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    The more things change...the more they stay the same. It's like deja vu all over again.

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Does anything about Haskins really even matter until Bruce is gone? Probably not.

    If Bruce stays, Haskins won't have the TE he needs, the WRs he needs or anything else.

    We need about 8 good players to be anything more than a wildcard loser in our best season.

    Which is why we should pray for 1-15, and then trade that top pick away for 3 1st rounders in future years. But again, if Bruce is negotiating we won't get anything close to that.

    And then if Dan is picking the player again, nothing matters.
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    Thank you Jay Gruden. Multiple Superbowl appearances on deck.

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    A few of the guys on 980 are making it sound like Trey Quinn purposely moved out of the way of the ball that Haskins threw to him.
    Has anyone heard this??!!
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  17. #17

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Boone View Post
    That feels a little like a big cop out Henry. I get your overall premise. The org is a black hole of suckitude whose gravitational pull no talent or success can escape from. I'm not even going to offer a counter-argument because I don't have one. However - player qualities, talents, character, and performance still exist. They are not entirely defined by the org.
    I'm sure I'm just bitter because we run every single average or better QB out of town the moment they show any promise. The only starting QB we've had here that has retired with the Redskins during the Dan Snyder Era is Rex Grossman. Think about that for a second. I don't know that it matters what Haskins can or can't do. Next year Haskins won't be The New Girl At School, so his future will depend on who the new coach is and if he likes whatever Haskins brings to the table. Will he want a veteran? Will he want another newer, shinier rookie QB? These are the burning questions.

    I don't know that we've seen enough of Haskins to know what his leadership qualities are or aren't, and by the time we do he'll most likely be playing for another team.

    Sorry. That's what I think.
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  18. #18

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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    I'm sure I'm just bitter because we run every single average or better QB out of town the moment they show any promise. The only starting QB we've had here that has retired with the Redskins during the Dan Snyder Era is Rex Grossman. Think about that for a second. I don't know that it matters what Haskins can or can't do. Next year Haskins won't be The New Girl At School, so his future will depend on who the new coach is and if he likes whatever Haskins brings to the table. Will he want a veteran? Will he want another newer, shinier rookie QB? These are the burning questions.

    I don't know that we've seen enough of Haskins to know what his leadership qualities are or aren't, and by the time we do he'll most likely be playing for another team.

    Sorry. That's what I think.
    I appreciate the additional thoughts I hear you


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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Solitary Man View Post
    A few of the guys on 980 are making it sound like Trey Quinn purposely moved out of the way of the ball that Haskins threw to him.
    Has anyone heard this??!!
    I haven’t heard that bit of nonsense ... but what in Gods name would be the motivating factor in that scenario???

    Honestly - throwing that ball there was a terrible decision. I don’t even need to know what Quinn was doing (or was supposed to be doing) on that play to figure that out.


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  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Biggest Question ...

    I would have been fine if Haskins sat the whole year, there's no way to honestly gauge his ability in this trash season. The o-line is in shambles and at times appears to just go through the motions so Tress can kick it and they can go sit down.

    The altercation with the o-line, or whatever it was imho shows passion on a passionless team. There doesn't seem to be any leadership from the vets this year and I can't blame the kid a bit for wanting more from the line.

    Just sat through the highlights and there were no max protections called for DH. It eerily resembled the ole ball coach's fun n gun, with much less effectiveness. Isn't the coordinator supposed to be helping the kid out as well?
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