2025 Washington Commanders- All Things Defense

Conn said:

It’s just malpractice. SIP posted about how Keim thinks the team sees Magee as a potential green dot guy next year.

Well how the fuck will they know before this offseason, before FA and the draft, if he doesn’t get more snaps? Never mind the other young guys.

This staff is pissing me off

Click to expand...

We have absolutely no idea what is going on in, or how a move like this will affect the locker room. Someone commented that "we need to use this year to evaluate players and coaches!" (Like that's some new, revolutionary concept and the coaches and front office staff are sitting drinking Coors Light in their boxes.) Point is, they are continually evaluating. I think they know where Magee, Medrano et al are at. I like Magee. I think he's going to be good--but that decision cannot be made in a vacuum. Brian Mitchell, and I don't put a lot of stock into what ex-players think, but this statement made sense: he pointed out that it pisses a lot of people when veterans are benched for "evaluations." I don't get too worked up over snap counts because we know so very little in the decisions behind them.

I have a hard time seeing the team minimizing Wagner’s playing time (right or wrong) for a multitude of reasons. Maybe for the final game of the season.

Benching someone like Wagner to evaluate players is a quick way to lose the locker room. Remember how pissed everyone was when Shanahan actually said that? Quinn isn't Rivera running David Mayo and Jamin Davis out there.

Riggo44 said:

We have absolutely no idea what is going on in, or how a move like this will affect the locker room. Someone commented that "we need to use this year to evaluate players and coaches!" (Like that's some new, revolutionary concept and the coaches and front office staff are sitting drinking Coors Light in their boxes.) Point is, they are continually evaluating. I think they know where Magee, Medrano et al are at. I like Magee. I think he's going to be good--but that decision cannot be made in a vacuum. Brian Mitchell, and I don't put a lot of stock into what ex-players think, but this statement made sense: he pointed out that it pisses a lot of people when veterans are benched for "evaluations." I don't get too worked up over snap counts because we know so very little in the decisions behind them.

Click to expand...

Wagner played every single snap yesterday. 100%. Not even addressing the fact that he shouldn’t be playing obvious passing downs at his age anyways, Keim asserts that the FO believes they might have their next green dot guy in Magee. There’s no defense for what they’re doing to prep for that. He can’t take 20% of Wagner snaps to get more tape for our staff in a lost season? Of course he can. Of course that’s better process. You aren’t losing the locker room by rotating with Wagner a little bit (at least 30% of whom won’t be here next year btw), it’s completely normal shit that franchises do as guys get older. Wagner is probably a month from retirement.

In fact, you’re way more likely to lose people in that locker room when they have to go watch film every week and pretend that aren’t seeing Wagner get fucking roasted in coverage over and over again with no consequences, because why? He has tenure? I thought this was a merit-based sport? Great coaches adjust, and the better results proves to the locker room that it was the right call. Enough of those over time and nobody questions your moves.

Nobody should give a shit what Brian Mitchell says, but that’s a separate issue.

I’m not talking about fully benching Wagner and telling him to call it a career, that would be dishonorable behavior towards someone like him that’s respected around the league. These coaches and their choices the last year are the reason why it’s even controversial to think about rotating him out on passing downs (or other downs once in a while). And I’m not talking about benching Wagner for some random 7th rounder just bc I’m a fan with an itch who wants to generically see “youth evaluation”. I’m talking about normal targeted development of Magee, who this staff sees as the potential future at ILB who could wear the green dot. Rotating him in for an entire series here and there and knocking Wagner down to 70-80% of snaps would be totally normal behavior.

No amount of speculation about imagined locker room politics changes that being true. This staff is very much not doing the normal thing here and it speaks to their lack of vision. Quinn always has preferred vets (most coaches do if they’re being honest) but it can get to a point where it’s self-sabotage.

The decisions aren’t being made in a vacuum, that’s true. This staff has struggled to make decisions within the context of their reality and that’s an ongoing problem.

Conn said:

Wagner played every single snap yesterday. 100%. Not even addressing the fact that he shouldn’t be playing obvious passing downs at his age anyways, Keim asserts that the FO believes they might have their next green dot guy in Magee. There’s no defense for what they’re doing to prep for that. He can’t take 20% of Wagner snaps to get more tape for our staff in a lost season? Of course he can. Of course that’s better process. You aren’t losing the locker room by rotating with Wagner a little bit (at least 30% of whom won’t be here next year btw), it’s completely normal shit that franchises do as guys get older. Wagner is probably a month from retirement.

In fact, you’re way more likely to lose people in that locker room when they have to go watch film every week and pretend that aren’t seeing Wagner get fucking roasted in coverage over and over again with no consequences, because why? He has tenure? I thought this was a merit-based sport? Great coaches adjust, and the better results proves to the locker room that it was the right call. Enough of those over time and nobody questions your moves.

Click to expand...

Or maybe Magee isn't there yet and everyone in the locker room knows it. We have heard of no reports of anyone calling for Magee to play from anywhere--even jackasses that love to stir up shit like Jason La CantReporta. You've heard no unnamed sources saying anything. Keim saying they like Magee as an eventual green dot is all we've heard. Maybe the 20% of snaps Magee gets are showing he is still reacting slowly? Again, we have little information as to why players are getting the playing time they are.

Riggo44 said:

Or maybe Magee isn't there yet and everyone in the locker room knows it. We have heard of no reports of anyone calling for Magee to play from anywhere--even jackasses that love to stir up shit like Jason La CantReporta. You've heard no unnamed sources saying anything. Keim saying they like Magee as an eventual green dot is all we've heard. Maybe the 20% of snaps Magee gets are showing he is still reacting slowly? Again, we have little information as to why players are getting the playing time they are.

Click to expand...

Players improve with playing time, it doesn’t just magically happen. Game reps are insanely more valuable than training camp reps—and you need to have a better idea of what you have (or don’t have) before FA and the draft in a few months. There’s only a few games left to give yourself more info for your upcoming self-scout in January/February.

I would never expect for players to call for a change, that’s insane. We’re a regular franchise again, that sort of stuff isn’t going to happen often, if ever. Especially involving a legend like Wagner.

You’re actually making more excuses for something that isn’t normal, than I am in hopes of seeing some level of proactive behavior from this staff. What they are doing and how they’re handling this situation is not competent and it’s not normal. They are actively giving themselves less information about a player they allegedly have high hopes for.

Again, I’m not spouting some crazy radio fan BS about benching all the vets who are hitting FA in favor of whatever random youth we have on the roster to soft tank and “evaluate”. That’s not how the NFL works. I’m specifically criticizing this Wagner/Magee situation as I have for a while, as many are. Because it very obviously makes no sense unless you give this staff unquestioned benefit of the doubt in decision-making, which they haven’t earned and don’t deserve. Few do.

We have beat guys questioning it. They know more than we do and agree it doesn’t make sense.

Oh, also: that Shanahan quote people hated (that apparently enraged the locker room) after the Panthers game in 2012 is what kicked off our winning streak and playoff appearance. I was at that Panthers game pissing at a urinal after the game ended as Shanahan’s presser was playing on the speakers around the concourse and in the bathroom, and on the little TV’s they had. Everyone was surprised. Then the vibes shifted and we won a bunch of games. So…idk about that one. Knowing they were being evaluated for their future with us seemed to kick some dummies into gear, even though that was a toxic era and I wouldn’t want to see the situation repeated in a vacuum.

Conn said:

You’re actually making more excuses for something that isn’t normal, than I am in hopes of seeing some level of proactive behavior from this staff. What they are doing and how they’re handling this situation is not competent and it’s not normal. They are actively giving themselves less information about a player they allegedly have high hopes for.

Click to expand...

I have made no excuses, I am just playing Devil's Advocate because I refuse to continue to clutter this board with more opinion-passed-as-fact rants. You seem to think the only way to evaluate someone is during a game. Please tell me, how do people earn those snaps?

Riggo44 said:

I have made no excuses, I am just playing Devil's Advocate because I refuse to continue to clutter this board with more opinion-passed-as-fact rants. You seem to think the only way to evaluate someone is during a game. Please tell me, how do people earn those snaps?

Click to expand...

On this staff? They don’t seem to be able to earn those snaps until the vet in front of them suffers a career-ending injury. Either that or AP is drafting bums, right? I’m exaggerating for dark humor because I realized I was getting a little testy with you (apologies), but it’s not far off from the truth. There are athletic draft picks we know very little about sitting behind veterans who aren’t very good at their jobs, sure. But again I wasn’t advocating for wholesale veteran benchings and “evaluation mode”. Just targeted development of (and information-gathering about) players where it makes sense

Backups rarely get any significant practice snaps in their scheme during the season because the starters need the vast majority of them. Many players who are 2nd and 3rd on the depth chart are getting most of their practice snaps on the scout team running an approximation of another team’s scheme (the starting O & D don’t really practice against each other during the season, they each practice against backups simulating their upcoming opponent’s scheme).

So what are they learning about most of these backup draft picks who don’t get game snaps? Not a ton outside of meeting rooms! That’s just the nature of the NFL. Many a starting player hasn’t broken out until an injury in front of them opened a lane for them to show their stuff, because the coaches had no idea what they had on their hands outside of gameday. It’s very old school NFL and it’s prevalent. And it used to be totally normal, when you could slowly develop guys for half a decade before throwing them into the mix. The league isn’t like that anymore, you need to know what a guy is earlier and re-sign them earlier to avoid paying market value for your own draft picks who turn out to be players. The Eagles are good at it.

That’s why in my view the more progressive, innovative staffs around the league rotate in young guys over time to slowly increase the sample size of snaps and see what they’ve got, even before they’re “ready” to start. That’s where we should be right now with Magee/Wagner, to get back to the main point of the disagreement. Wagner is playing 100% of snaps weeks before he likely retires. That’s not smart when the guy behind him is supposedly thought of as the potential heir-apparent (according to Keim, who is reliable). That feels like a disconnect between the FO who has to gather information and make decisions, and the coaching staff who is trying to make the best snap-to-snap decisions. Great organizations figure this stuff out and it makes the team better.

Conn I agree with your points - I do think it’s worth pointing out that MaGee has been getting a lot of snaps recently. But, they haven’t been in place of Wagner. Don’t know what the green dot rules are, but I’m with you that I’d like to see him get some run at actually calling plays if possible.

Yes and I think if you look up Wagner's snaps he is around 100% every game Skinny. It is strange that Magee has not actually played he position he is supposed to take over. And especially strange since his speed and cover ability is a strong suit and what has become a weakness for Wagner

DWinzit said:

Yes and I think if you look up Wagner's snaps he is around 100% every game Skinny. It is strange that Magee has not actually played he position he is supposed to take over. And especially strange since his speed and cover ability is a strong suit and what has become a weakness for Wagner

Click to expand...

Yep. As I said, I don’t know the exact rules (like, for example can Magee have two helmets?) - surely there’s a way to get him time in that role, beyond benching Wagner. But my point was more about the fact that he’s been getting a lot of time, despite the low numbers this last game.

DWinzit said:

And especially strange since his speed and cover ability is a strong suit and what has become a weakness for Wagner

Click to expand...

I think it's not his physical capabilities. Is his mental processing and reaction times up to par?

Magee was getting Luvu's snaps as an off-ball linebacker while we moved Luvu to Edge. That experiment has not worked as Luvu is not good as a majority Edge player.

Coaches still have to coach to win and if a personnel grouping isn't getting it done they need to switch it up.

Wagner is green dot, but how the LB's align and shift pre-snap due to motion and who the OL tries to climb towards post-snap changes each play. Magee as an off-ball linebacker is still getting valuable experience whether he's got the green dot or not.

Now we just need to figure out the disappointment with Magee not getting enough snaps. Some of this has to fall on Luvu having a down season. I'd like Luvu to take less snaps in favor of Magee getting more experience rather than remove the Green Dot Wagner from the field.

Always Commander Never Captain said:

Magee was getting Luvu's snaps as an off-ball linebacker while we moved Luvu to Edge. That experiment has not worked as Luvu is not good as a majority Edge player.

Coaches still have to coach to win and if a personnel grouping isn't getting it done they need to switch it up.

Wagner is green dot, but how the LB's align and shift pre-snap due to motion and who the OL tries to climb towards post-snap changes each play. Magee as an off-ball linebacker is still getting valuable experience whether he's got the green dot or not.

Now we just need to figure out the disappointment with Magee not getting enough snaps. Some of this has to fall on Luvu having a down season. I'd like Luvu to take less snaps in favor of Magee getting more experience rather than remove the Green Dot Wagner from the field.

Click to expand...

Luvu will be here next year, so while I get the logic I’d like to see them on the field together. Luvu certainly is not a viable EDGE presence, which was another miss in the self-scout category going into this season because I think part of our lackadaisical approach to EDGE was the knowledge we were going to use Luvu there more after his success as a blitzer last year.

So Wagner likely retires, or at least shouldn’t be back here. If Magee and Luvu are the starting ILB duo next season, and Magee has the green dot in his future…I’d like to see that some of the time these last few weeks before we need to allocate our FA and draft resources!

Riggo44 said:

Welp, turns out Forbes actually just sucks.

Click to expand...

Forbes is better than we thought. That's not saying a lot.

He is also better than how he played here. That is disconcerting.

He is not a shutdown cornerback; he wasn't worthy of where he was drafted. All of that is true, but it's not really on him, I don't think.

None of that means he doesn't suck. Haha

Conn said:

So Wagner likely retires, or at least shouldn’t be back here. If Magee and Luvu are the starting ILB duo next season, and Magee has the green dot in his future…I’d like to see that some of the time these last few weeks before we need to allocate our FA and draft resources!

Click to expand...

I don't think it's an opinion at all to say:
1) We are eliminated from the playoffs. Last I checked, that's a fact.
2) If we are eliminated from the playoffs, the best thing we can do is give our younger LBs more reps.

I guess the point of contention here could be, how ready is Magee for the green dot, and maybe there is value for him seeing Wagner up close doing it? One of the best? Hopefully - maybe - they will plan on him coming in later. It's possible.

I think one of the things that is happening here is Conn and many of us have lost a lot of trust that we gave them earlier in the year. I don't see anything strange about that.

^Magee has been watching and learning from Wagner and Luvu for almost 2 full years now. He has shown up pretty well so far this year when given an opportunity. He has been touted as Wagners replacement since being drafted and DQ pretty much sealed that again last week. They have all the confidence in him wearing the green dot.
Give him a chance now when in real games even if for just parts of the games. There is no better way to learn. Otherwise, what, wait until preseason when no one really plays?

I think what we are seeing is the slow reaction of DQ to addressing emerging issues.

He’s a step behind in recognizing what seems obvious to others.

Remember the Falcons Super Bowl vs Patriots?

How could DQ stand there and watch Kyle Shanahan continue to call passing plays and have three and outs while the Patriots were scoring TDs in the second half?

Any sane coach tells the OC to eat clock and take air out of the football with runs and short passes instead of going after low percentage chunk plays down the field.

Bulldog said:

Remember the Falcons Super Bowl vs Patriots?

Click to expand...

No, what happened?

My only point is that leopards don’t change their spots.

Quinn is very hands off with his coordinators and looks a bit like Norv out there on Sundays.

You know Gibbs or Parcells or other winning coaches manage the TEAM and never let chaos ensue as it has here at times.