Commanders @ Dallas - Next Day Thread

This is on point

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Voice_of_Reason said:
I like Paulsen, but I don't always trust his analysis. He also might not be wrong, but also doesn't have a lot of better options.

I say this often with the analyst types, if they were really good at putting together game plans, then they would be doing that instead of commenting on what other people are doing.

I think, if memory serves ( skinsinparadise can correct me if I'm wrong), but Paulsen was also one of the guys really high on the Ron OL which completely fell apart.

I get what he's saying, and there might be tendencies. But at the same time, as I outlined above, I'm not sure what you do about those tendencies at the moment.
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Paulsen is great. But he tends to give positive spin to this coaching staff. I don't blame him since they employ him.

But he can subtlely get his digs in. He with the previous staff would say for example the Giants coaching stafff would out scheme Washington. And in a recent podcast he said that scheme is part of the problem too on defense. But he says it all so nicely it goes under the radar. I know generally he's a fan of Kliff and Quinn.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
PS: I have absolutely nothing good to say about the defense. I'm not sure firing Joe Whitt solves anything at this point, but that side of the ball is a mess. I will say, they don't have any DEs left who they thought they would play, and that's a problem. Wise, Jean-Baptist, Armstrong are all hurt. None of their starters at that position are on the field. So there's some context there.

That said, the back end of the defense and LBs are a mess, and that has nothing to do with the fact the DEs are hurt.
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The 49ers defense is decimated by injuries and they're still playing well.
They held the falcons in check all game, the same offense that ran roughshod over us.
The difference robert saleh vs joe whitt.
I have almost no doubt whatsoever that if we had saleh or vance joseph this defense would at minimum be respectable.

But i agree, firing whitt probably wouldn't do any good until this offseason and our defense did improve markedly as last year went on despite the fact that we still couldn't have prevented steven hawking from getting a hundred on the ground.
 
I think the offense is going to be good when fully healthy. Just a lot of out of sync ness to start the season.


The defense on the other hand…my goodness. What are Quinn and Whitt teaching these guys?
 
I think this was always going to be a very difficult matchup to game plan for. Facing that Dallas offense alone is a daunting task. I just don't think we have the horses on defense yet. Losing Wise was a huge hit, as well as Jean Baptiste, Will Harris, and Jonathan Jones. And our best current defender (imho) Dorance Armstrong is banged up. So I think most of us expected the defense to struggle against the #1 NFL offense.

Many are criticizing Kingsbury's gameplans but when you really look at it, what good options do we have in terms of great attack plans? We are missing our top 3 WRs and have project players and journeymen starting. Zach Ertz can still play but he's limited and you have to worry about his durability. So focusing on attacking through the air isn't going to be problematic. So you pound the rock - but you lost your dynamic pass-catching RB for the season and are now relying on a rookie who is struggling to hold onto the ball. The other guys KNOW that you have almost nothing at WR and are stacking the box, so to a certain extent it doesn't matter who we have at RB. So that leaves you with the 3rd option of putting it all in Jayden's hands. Unfortunately, Jayden was hobbled by the knee injury and apparently is now further hobbled. So doing designed QB runs, RPOs, or even encouraging him to take off when the option is there are all less than ideal strategies.

I don't know what we expect Kliff to do. Until we get McLaurin and Deebo healthy and maybe McCaffrey steps up as #3, I think our options are extremely limited.

Our best bet to beat Dallas was in a shootout because we know the defense cannot be relied on at the present time and Dallas defense coming in to this one had been awful. We knew Dallas would put up a lot of points. We couldn't match them on offense and that doomed us.
 
Kliff has a top 10 offense with Chris Moore as the #1 WR, Jayden missing 2.5 games. Good job from him. He's not perfect. Who is?

The defense has had injuries but I deem them league average. If they lose Armstrong its big but he's been healthy for most of the season.

I think Wise was a bt overhyped. He's a 30 plus year old DE, who NE let go and this team signed for a ham sandwhich and some of those who covered him (PFF graded back up their point) didn't think he was that hot against the run, yet this team crowned him as their run stopper because he was big felt odd to me. J. Jones another NE, 30 plus year old who they signed for peanuts. Will Harris, another safety signed cheap. Jean-Baptiste was from what some reporters thought was a fringe roster guy.

IMO injuries isn't an excuse for this unit.

Now offense is an entirely different story. Injuries have been train wreck level bad except the O line which has been mostly healthy.

I do think though the offense effects the defense. Last year the offense kept the defense off the field. This year the defense has had to play more.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
I think Galdi said there were 3 or 4 drops.

I come back to, did he miss them or where they not where they were supposed to be? If it was Deebo or McLaurin running the route, would they have been where he threw the ball?

This is the timing part of the offense. Accuracy is not hitting a stationary target. It's hitting a moving target 30 yards down field, and the QB throws to where he expects the WR to be. Sure, they all miss throws from time to time, just flat missed throws.

But it's hard to know what's going on with the entire offense being a rotating door of players. There's no way to build timing if you can't practice togeher, and they haven't had the group together to practice together except for the 1 week between when Terry signed his contract and week 1. Then there was the short week to GB (virtually no practice), then Daniels was hurt.

The starting group had 1 week of practice together, and now they're just throwing things out there and hoping. Hope is not a strategy.
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He missed a wide open square in, maybe 15 yards, on an early drive. That lead to 3rd and long followed by a punt, that throw should have kept the drive alive. Look I'm not ready to bury the guy but I don't understand why posters can't acknowledge that his play has not been what we need or expected.
 
Voice_of_Reason said:
Also on the running game, I didn't see the first half, I so I can't say for certainty, but I will say I saw the Cowboys stacking the box a lot in the second half, and basically daring the Commanders to run into it. Here's the problem when the box is stacked:

- If you run "creative plays" like counter-plays or a lot of motion with pulling players, you're leaving gaping holes. If you pull the Guard/Tackle to lead a run, you might be turning a guy completely free to run down the play from behind
- If you try to run outside, you lose the numbers game, because if there are 8 in the box, they can flow more quickly to the outside than you can get blockers there
- If you try a draw, that works if the defenders think there is a chance at a pass, if they don't, they crash and blow it up.

So, a lot of times with a stacked box, the safest route, if you're not going to check out of it and pass, is to go "shortest path between two points is a straight line" approach. And just see if you can get a little movement in the middle and pick up 4-6 yards. I think that's what Kliff was going for.

When you have the outside threats we had yesterday, Dallas decided they were basically going to single them, ignore them, and stop the run. There is just not much you can do about that except make them pay for it by throwing the ball. The one thing I think which was missing from the game plan yesterday which I found a little odd was the screen game. We didn't run many screens, either to RBs or WRs. I do wonder why that was.

I'll be honest, I'm a fan of Kliff's offense. I will point out when he has a bad game. He had a bad game in Green Bay for sure. I don't think he had much to work with yesterday, and I think he did ok. There are always nits to pick. But I think he knows what he's doing. And when you have Moore as probably the #1 WR, you're not going to get a lot of respect from the defense for your pass game.

I kidnof whished they would have just said "screw it" and not tried to run and gone against what you would expect.
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I mentioned that I felt Kliff got outcoached vs the Bears and got some understandable pushback with good points. However, it’s about the same I felt about this game, which you’ve spelled out far better than I did - it felt to me that going against defenses that were really poor against the run up to that point caused Kliff to try to force the issue. And as you’ve said, the loaded box also lead to quick pressure. Didn’t feel like he adjusted to try to get the defense to back off the LOS/out of the box.

Now, to be fair to him, I think receiver issues, drops, penalties, etc, made things look worse. With receivers out, timing is off and the pass game doesn’t merit respect (as you’ve also said). So a tough situation for Kliff. And he did try to pass some in 3 TE sets, including with Trent Scott in (last week anyway, not sure about this week). Against Chicago he also had the double move to Lane and the RPO pass to McCaffrey (that got called back). Lack of success makes the play calling look worse.

Still feel like the run game (again) just felt too forced/predictable. Here’s hoping things change once we have legitimate receivers on the field…
 
Boone said:
I think this was always going to be a very difficult matchup to game plan for. Facing that Dallas offense alone is a daunting task. I just don't think we have the horses on defense yet. Losing Wise was a huge hit, as well as Jean Baptiste, Will Harris, and Jonathan Jones. And our best current defender (imho) Dorance Armstrong is banged up. So I think most of us expected the defense to struggle against the #1 NFL offense.

Many are criticizing Kingsbury's gameplans but when you really look at it, what good options do we have in terms of great attack plans? We are missing our top 3 WRs and have project players and journeymen starting. Zach Ertz can still play but he's limited and you have to worry about his durability. So focusing on attacking through the air isn't going to be problematic. So you pound the rock - but you lost your dynamic pass-catching RB for the season and are now relying on a rookie who is struggling to hold onto the ball. The other guys KNOW that you have almost nothing at WR and are stacking the box, so to a certain extent it doesn't matter who we have at RB. So that leaves you with the 3rd option of putting it all in Jayden's hands. Unfortunately, Jayden was hobbled by the knee injury and apparently is now further hobbled. So doing designed QB runs, RPOs, or even encouraging him to take off when the option is there are all less than ideal strategies.

I don't know what we expect Kliff to do. Until we get McLaurin and Deebo healthy and maybe McCaffrey steps up as #3, I think our options are extremely limited.

Our best bet to beat Dallas was in a shootout because we know the defense cannot be relied on at the present time and Dallas defense coming in to this one had been awful. We knew Dallas would put up a lot of points. We couldn't match them on offense and that doomed us.
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As I said before the game 2-3 injuries should not derail a team, especially against that Dallas defense.
 
Speaking of Logan he and Grant gussed that the Dallas D coordinator would be too stubborn to change his scheme to adopt the Bears approach to stopping this offense in its current lineup. they guessed wrong. Dallas ran the same script

A. Stack the box -- stop Croskey-Merritt
B. Blitz the hell out of Jayden
C. Play man

The idea of course is make them one dimensional. Force Jayden into quick decisions and the only way he can burn them is if McCaffrey, Lane, Moore can tear apart man coverage. Bank on the idea that they can't. So Jayden's under pressure, has to throw quick and has no one to throw to.
 
skinsinparadise said:
Speaking of Logan he and Grant gussed that the Dallas D coordinator would be too stubborn to change his scheme to adopt the Bears approach to stopping this offense in its current lineup. they guessed wrong. Dallas ran the same script

A. Stack the box -- stop Croskey-Merritt
B. Blitz the hell out of Jayden
C. Play man

The idea of course is make them one dimensional. Force Jayden into quick decisions and the only way he can burn them is if McCaffrey, Lane, Moore can tear apart man coverage. Bank on the idea that they can't. So Jayden's under pressure, has to throw quick and has no one to throw to.
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And that's what we spoke of here so Kliff should have been prepared for just that, but it didn't look like had
 
DWinzit said:
And that's what we spoke of here so Kliff should have been prepared for just that, but it didn't look like had
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Not sure how to address it? Coach up Lane real fast to beat man coverage?

Only thing that I felt I would do differently us play McNichol over Croskey-Merritt. If you are getting blitzed like crazy keep your best pass protector who can also catch the ball.

Robbie Chosen not bad for game 1.
 
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Darrell Green Fan said:
As I said before the game 2-3 injuries should not derail a team, especially against that Dallas defense.
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Brother - we are missing our starting RB and our top 3 WRs. I think those positions are different from others in that, along with QB, there is usually a BIG talent drop-off in talent level between starters and backups. That's because of a couple things. First of all, elite talent at those spots is hard to find, and when you find it, you often have a ton of your salary cap invested in them.

So it's not like the OL where you may have 2-3 guys at a spot who can all play within a relatively similar range.

I don't care what the opposing defense looks like, going from Terry and Deebo and Austin Ekeler to Lane, Moore, McCaffrey, and a rookie RB... it's going to present some challenges.

Not excuses. But it's a big factor.
 
skinsinparadise said:
Kliff has a top 10 offense with Chris Moore as the #1 WR, Jayden missing 2.5 games. Good job from him. He's not perfect. Who is?

The defense has had injuries but I deem them league average. If they lose Armstrong its big but he's been healthy for most of the season.

I think Wise was a bt overhyped. He's a 30 plus year old DE, who NE let go and this team signed for a ham sandwhich and some of those who covered him (PFF graded back up their point) didn't think he was that hot against the run, yet this team crowned him as their run stopper because he was big felt odd to me. J. Jones another NE, 30 plus year old who they signed for peanuts. Will Harris, another safety signed cheap. Jean-Baptiste was from what some reporters thought was a fringe roster guy.

IMO injuries isn't an excuse for this unit.

Now offense is an entirely different story. Injuries have been train wreck level bad except the O line which has been mostly healthy.

I do think though the offense effects the defense. Last year the offense kept the defense off the field. This year the defense has had to play more.
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I get your point on the quality of the defensive starters I referenced - but those are key players/starters for us - in other words some of the best players at their position on this team. I guess one can argue we would still be 3-4 with them, but we don't know that. What we do know is we've had a shit ton of injuries to guys the coaches planned to have playing and built their units around.

The other thing we as fans frequently pay little attention to is how hard it is to get any kind of consistent unit play when the pieces are constantly changing. You mentioned a lot the lack of cohesion early on with starters because of limiting playing time preseason. That is a valid concern and then you add in immediate injuries that changed the entire make up of many position groups and the struggle for cohesion and consistently becomes massively more challenging.

It's at least as big a factor as 'coaching' that everyone wants to talk about.
 
skinsinparadise said:
Not sure how to address it? Coach up Lane real fast to beat man coverage?

Only thing that I felt I would di differently us play McNichol over Croskey-Merritt. If you are getting blitzed like crazy keep your best pass protector who can also catch the ball.

Robbie Chosen not bad for game 1.
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I mentioned it in the game thread that I don't understand why there are barely any screens or slants called. The whole offense play calling felt extremely vanilla for a guy that is supposed to have a giant playbook. I know, some of the players have not been with the team long but actually, they were productive (amazing how Chosen played). Other players know the play book or they could have practiced counter plays for these scenarios.
 
Yeah I think as a Cowboys reporter pointed out "cluster injuries" as to WR.

If it were three injuries, spread out, no big deal. But all three WRs? that's crazy. I can't recall playing a team when their full WR lineup was out.

I agree that the other injuries shouldn't kill a season. Ekeler is a good player but nothing special and they got plenty of depth at RB and IMHO he wasn't their best RB.

Wise was signed for a cheap contract for a reason, he was nothing special his last season in NE, he has to be the most overhyped FA signing for peanuts since I don't know Ziggy Hood? J. Jones, ditto, same story. Jean-Baptiste, a 7th rounder who is OK, nothing special.

Will Harris although was the talk of camp along with Quan Martin was up and down before he got hurt. Granted an OK safety is better than anything we got.

If they lose Armstrong that would be a big loss IMO. Otherwise their injuries on defense feels about average. But losing all three Wrs is insane.
 
Boone said:
I get your point on the quality of the defensive starters I referenced - but those are key players/starters for us - in other words some of the best players at their position on this team. I guess one can argue we would still be 3-4 with them, but we don't know that. What we do know is we've had a shit ton of injuries to guys the coaches planned to have playing and built their units around.

The other thing we as fans frequently pay little attention to is how hard it is to get any kind of consistent unit play when the pieces are constantly changing. You mentioned a lot the lack of cohesion early on with starters because of limiting playing time preseason. That is a valid concern and then you add in immediate injuries that changed the entire make up of many position groups and the struggle for cohesion and consistently becomes massively more challenging.

It's at least as big a factor as 'coaching' that everyone wants to talk about.
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I've been consistent on Wise. the signing was fine. But a 4 sack guy who by reputaton is pedestrian against the run, isn't a big deal -- it felt like the Bruce Allen years where they signed just guys or aging has beens for cheap contracts and played them up because hey that's the new toy we got. Jean-Baptise who I actauly touted as a dude I wanted in the late rounds in the draft they took him, I like but he's nothing special. if Wise was special, how come he was so cheap in FA? Really good edge players get fat contracts.

Will Harris has been at best an average safety in the league also signed cheap.

Other teams have injuries, too of course. I don't find the injuries on defense to be anything crazy or for that matter more than average.

But am with you on offense. If you lose all three of your starting receivers, that's insane and abnormal.

Nothing IMO abnormal or crazy as to injuries on defense. It's been pedestrain level amount of injuries.
 
The loss last night makes me even more annoyed/pissed that we lost the Bears game. We could (and should be) so easily 4-3 right now which wouldn't sting nearly as much as 3-4 does.

But man did we look bad in basically every spot yesterday. It was just not a fun game to watch.
 
CuredFromBatteredFanSyndrome said:
And part of what made him Superman was that our offense had opposing defenses spread out which lends itself to Superman using his legs when nothing’s there.

That is no longer the case. Our offense scares nobody and it shows in how they play us.
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Exactly. Too many injuries for them to be afraid.

If Jayden has all of his weapons, and those weapons are healthy, like they were most of last year? Different story.
 
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