The Gruden Files - Year Two

No, that will redouble my frustration aimed at Gruden for having no ability to integrate such a gifted, talented athlete into his offensive scheme, IN THIS SCENARIO. Scot can only go by what he sees on the field, practice and regular. Gruden decided he didn't want to play Griffin, so Scot had a training camp and two preseason games to evaluate Griffin. If he goes out and plays better than Cousins next year, the blame lies with Gruden.

He won't even start next year, unless there is a team so desperate they give him the starting job. He won't earn it, he's not capable.

Edit: You guys remember what I said when we drafted Griffin? Need a reminder? :laugh:
 
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Come on Boone, weez just havin' some fun. :buttkick:

Nervous energy mixed in with some disbelief and maybe a little distrust in what we see.

Support of the team however, is never lacking here regardless of where the head is.

In case anyone missed it,

In its opinion today, the Federal Circuit held, in part:

The government cannot refuse to register disparaging marks because it disapproves of the expressive messages conveyed by the marks. It cannot refuse to register marks because it concludes that such marks will be disparaging to others. The government regulation at issue amounts to viewpoint discrimination, and under the strict scrutiny review appropriate for government regulation of message or viewpoint, we conclude that the disparagement proscription of § 2(a) is unconstitutional.
 
Where did I say that Gruden got more out of Griffin than anyone? I never said that.

You do know what Griffin is learning right now. He's being coached up the same way that Cousins is. He's learning how to be a successful QB.

Griffin has found himself in a great situation.

And if he does succeed anywhere next season, he can thank Gruden and the staff for wasting a ton of their time and helping him develop this year--when that extension basically guaranteed that he'd never play.

He owes them a lot.

You said:
Shanahan couldn't make it work with such a "gifted, talented athlete" and it didn't work out with Gruden either.

Shanahan DID make it work. Really ****ing well, actually. We all hate him because he played Griffin on a bad knee and ruined, at a minimum, his career as a Washington Redskins QB. But to assert that Shanahan couldn't make it work with Griffin is nonsense.

Griffin regressed under Gruden. Not many would argue that. Ultimately, we can discuss if that was more Robert's fault or more Jay's fault, but the bottom line is that Griffin looked worse under Gruden.

As for owing Gruden a lot, I doubt sincerely Griff sees it that way. Whether he will go elsewhere and flame out ala Vince Young or succeed like Randall Cunningham, I have no idea. Maybe sitting this year will be invaluable for Griffin, I have no clue.

And neither do you.
 
Gosh Al - I hope we don't like, succeed, and sorely disappoint you :)

I cannot believe this is being rehashed again. I really can't. Here's how it boils down to me. I loved Robert and I wish him nothing but the best in his future. But he is done in DC. I'm a Redskins fan, not a Robert Griffin fan. I root for the guy under center. And I cannot believe that on the eve of our biggest game since 2012, this tired non-productive debate is going to be had again, for the gazillionth time. It doesn't matter what you think or I think or why we think it - everyone's made up their mind on what happened and whose fault it was.

In a nutshell, no matter what you think, we all just need to get over it and focus on the guys who are actually playing and have us on the verge of the playoffs.

Sorry John, but I don't think this one's going away any time soon. All sides get defensive when it is intimated that their "camp" is mostly at fault, especially when we perceive another side is shirking their responsibility in the situation.

Speaking for myself alone, it doesn't mean I'm not rooting like crazy for Kirk and my team to crush the Beagles this weekend, or that I want the team to fail. I am NOT more interested in being proven right than I am in winning. There is nothing that would make me happier than for Kirk to transform in to the next Tom Brady and make us a perennial SB contender. If that meant Griffin had to be relegated to career backup floating through the NFL, I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

But even if that happened, I would still believe that Jay Gruden and the Redskins organization completely butchered handling Robert Griffin III's career here in DC. Kirk's success or failure here is a separate issue.

(this view of things being a separate issue is one that has taken me months of therapy to arrive at, btw)
 
Trent Dilfer had it right back in 2012 talking about the offense we ran that year. Best 1st and 2nd down offense he'd ever seen. It was new and fresh and took the league by storm. It was on 3rd downs where the limitations of the QB surfaced. Our 36% conversion rate put us 24th in the league.

Pre-injury Robert was a freak of nature on those 1st and 2nd downs. He had the extra step to get around the edge and simply outrun people. After the injury vs Baltimore though, exacerbated by borderline criminal-neglect re-injury in the Seattle playoff, that guy no longer existed. And from that time forward, based on every credible report available, Robert never developed the NFL pocket skills needed to make up for the lost step, overcome the NFL's inevitable adjustments to the read option, and most importantly, operate an NFL passing game.

The question of who's "fault" that is/was isn't the point here ... just that it happened.

End of the day, I'll always wonder what would have happened had Shanny pulled him from the Seattle game.
 
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Still have to admit tho, things did start to change with the arrival of Scot, marketing now has "you like that"..... which came to the forefront only after one of the greatest comebacks in team history on the field of play..... not some draft day celebration at FedEx well before OTA's, BTW, that was also when the marketing machine was playing their alumni card for the day, which was OK..

The football machine appears to now have the upper hand.... a good thing.

This is a great point. I love that the team has spontaneously found themselves a voice.

I remember thinking in 2005 when Bugel tried calling his linemen 'The Dirtbags'. I didn't take like 'The Hogs' did, because stuff like that has to come naturally for it to mean anything.

"You like that!" is a great example of this. It's something Cousins earned and that's what makes it such a great battle cry to get his team and the fans to rally behind him. It actually means something.

Griffin kinda had that with the whole 'Griffining' thing at the beginning of 2012, but it went away. Hopefully this one sticks.

I do like it. :)
 
If that's on the level, ya lost me there brother. Did you feel we failed in 1991?

Teams have bad games.

Yes, it's on the level and here is how it works. We play Dallas twice every year. Every single season. We know those games are coming. No one knows before the season starts who will be playing in the Super Bowl. It comes later, after regular season business has been taken care of. Ergo, regular season more important.

Don't get me wrong, I love Super Bowls and I love winning Championships. You bring up 91. Loved it but not as much as 83 and do you know why? We demolished the Cowboys on the way to the one in 83. I'm a simple man, Om. Beat Dallas. Yes, teams have bad games but have bad games against other teams, outside the division. And when Dallas is bad, don't just beat them...I want to see them crushed, to see them driven before us, and to hear the lamentation of their women! (too much? over the top?)

Guess it goes to what I said in another thread earlier ... the notion that Robert's failure was Gruden's fault and not his own. I know a lot of people still feel that way, and that's fine since it's all just opinion at this point for us fans. I just never did buy into it personally. I was surprised at Jay calling Robert out after that one game like he did, but even then I remember thinking (and writing I believe) that given what we'd seen and heard leading up to that from Robert, part of me kinda felt it was understandable in a 'tough love' kinda way.

All that's old news, though, so I really don't want to rehash it yet again. For one thing, it IS old news and will likely never be fully resolved among fans. Mostly, though, because of what we seem to be watching happen over the past few weeks---a team, warts and injuries and all, apparently finding itself and going through the metamorphosis we've all been suffering waiting for for so long. To still see Gruden in the context of what happened last year (or in one game out of 14 so far this year) just doesn't seem right to me. Could it all still collapse? Sure. But that's not the way the evidence is trending.

Please don't misunderstand. I do not lay the blame for where Robert is all on Jay. Not in the least. Part of it goes to Mike Shanahan. I absolutely believe, beyond all doubt, that without blowing out his knee in the Seattle playoff game he would be a different guy today and I totally blame the fact that he was still in there on Mike. I also blame part of his tough time adjusting to the pro game on Mike/Kyle. They took the easy path with him as a rookie. It produced a spectacular season, one likely never to be duplicated in NFL history (what rookie QB throw will ever only throw 5 INTs again?), and if Robert had not gotten hurt against the Ravens it might have produced a Super Bowl. But they did nothing to help the lad along as a pro player.

The next season he was a head case after the knee. Again I blame the organization. Everyone let him back to early. Coach, trainers and doctors all failed him again. And because he spent the whole of the off season working on his knee, not his game, he was woefully unprepared to be an NFL pocket QB. Again, on the coaches. There needed to be some give and take there but for whatever reason Iron Mike Shanahan, the scourge of Haynesworth, had become Neville Chamberlain, the appeaser of RG3.

Then comes Jay. First time HC, totally new system, no QB coach, and calling his own plays. All after 2 years of the Shanahans spoiling the lad rotten. What he likely needed from Jay was tough love from Day 1 and a coach humble enough to admit he couldn't do everything himself. Robert got neither.

Could Robert have made some changes? Yes. Should he have made some changes? Oh yes. I don't believe the kid walks on water and does no wrong but the tape from '12 doesn't lie either. A coach that can fit their system to his physical gifts can get magical things and from where I sit it looks like Jay was more interested in making Robert fit the system then in making the system fit Robert. Call Mike and Kyle what you like...they adapted to the talent they had at QB. Jay did not.

In the end, there is enough blame to go around. The Shanahans, Dan Snyder, Robert himself and Jay all shoulder some. No question. But like Goal, I rather subscribe to the theory that all things come down from the top and when it comes to on field performance the top is the Head Coach. Hence, Jay shoulders more of the blame for the last two years in my view. Yes, the team is turning around now or at least appears to be (I'd really like to see it beat a team with even a .500 record before jumping on that bandwagon though). Yes, Cousins is looking more and more like an NFL QB by the day. Yes, we are leading the division. And yes, all that is happening under Jay. He gets credit for it. No question.

My only point is that in my world things are cumulative. I reject the complete "what have you done for me lately" attitude that is so prevalent in modern times in favor of an overall view that takes into account a complete track record. Robert is a huge failure on Jay's track record and one that leaves him less rope than he might otherwise have had. At least for a while.

Postscript - none of this is done to rekindle the discussion about Griff or to take away from what Kirk has achieved. The discussion is useless and likely totally over unless the team moves to keep Griff for some reason and Kirk is doing what he is doing independent of the Griff situation. This is just a response to the major here who seem befuddled by how I see things. I do not expect to change anyone's mind.
 
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On offense we have seen players emerge on this team.

On defense we have seen coaches and backup players keep the team in games despite all of the injuries that threatened to derail any hopes of improving on 2014.

Outside of Tress Way and Dustin Hopkins, which were good moves by the FO, the one area that is still a disappointment and liability is the ST coverage units.

So, whether that means a better focus on this area late in the draft or in free agency or a change in coaching may be necessary.

Brian Mitchell keeps saying ST coverage is more about discipline and 'want to' than about raw physical ability in terms of speed and size, etc.

Given that comment and what we have seen on other teams that have ST stars, Washington simply isn't developing them.

That has to change.
 
lol! Gruden was hired to fix Robert, wasn't he?
No. Jay Gruden was hired to coach the Washington Redskins.

LOL indeed.
 
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Neo,

Didn't want to fail to acknowledge the thoughtful reply. Having read it now twice, I think my only response at this point is ... we see these two things differently.

I still want to beat Dallas ... badly ... but over time I've come to feel almost as strongly about beating Philly and the Giants ... and definitely put overall seasonal and long-term goals way ahead of my need to see us beat that one silly team wearing the silly stars on their hats.

And I'm still leaning more toward Robert being the main problem--not the only problem, just the bigger part of it--in Robert's failure to progress. I think if he'd shown even close to the progress the team and the rest of us hoped he'd show, he would have started opening day and we might be living an alternate reality right now. I feel as strongly about that as I know others do that the lion's share of blame for his failure goes to Gruden and/or "the organization."

Hence the beauty of the platform upon which we share those opinions.

Peace and hail.
 
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lol! Gruden was hired to fix Robert, wasn't he?

If your car is totaled, you replace it, not fix it.
Some things cannot be fixed, and it's in no way, a bad reflection on the repairman you hired.
You could have the best repairman in the business, and still face the fact that replacement is the only option, and not repair.
I think we got a very decent replacement anyway, so nothing there to complain about.
 
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Neo,

Didn't want to fail to acknowledge the thoughtful reply. Having read it now twice, I think my only response at this point is ... we see these two things differently.

I still want to beat Dallas ... badly ... but over time I've come to feel almost as strongly about beating Philly and the Giants ... and definitely put overall seasonal and long-term goals way ahead of my need to see us beat that one silly team wearing the silly stars on their hats.

And I'm still leaning more toward Robert being the main problem--not the only problem, just the bigger part of it--in Robert's failure to progress. I think if he'd shown even close to the progress the team and the rest of us hoped he'd show, he would have started opening day and we might be living an alternate reality right now. I feel as strongly about that as I know others do that the lion's share of blame for his failure goes to Gruden and/or "the organization."

Hence the beauty of the platform upon which we share those opinions.

Peace and hail.

I think you and I are on the same page about the division opponents. I feel this way about all 3 of them. The loss at home to Dallas when they were ripe for the crushing has me looking at it with a Cowboy focus right now is all. If you ask me in August I will give equal weight to this 6 games above the rest of the schedule.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 
If your car is totaled, you replace it, not fix it.
Some things cannot be fixed, and it's in no way, a bad reflection on the repairman you hired.
You could have the best repairman in the business, and still face the fact that replacement is the only option, and not repair.
I think we got a very decent replacement anyway, so nothing there to complain about.

Dude...my dad is a TV repairman... he has the ultimate set of tools.... I can fix it


tumblr_lo4xxyc4tO1qcrzkko1_500.jpg
 
A-ha, but no mention of any of the thousands of motorcycles you've worked on ?
So you have come across a bike that was beyond repair ?

Actually, it most often doesn't come down to weather it can be repaired, it comes down to cost of replacement. Normally, if damages / repairs are more then 70% of the value of said vehicle, it's totaled. If it's not an insurance job, you weight the same factor, what will it cost to repair in comparison to replacement. That being said, if it was created by man, it can be repaired properly..... money talks. A good instance is a friend who races at Bonneville for the vintage time trials. He saw an old bike,and said he had to get one. His darling wife informed him he already had one, which he didn't buy into. They got back home, and they went to the barn, and he said proudly, There ya see, no bike. She spun him around to see the bike hanging from the barn door. The engine had a huge hole in the cases, the cyl head was missing, and it had no front forks. Yard art basically. One year later, his wife ran the bike at Bonneville, 1913 Famous James.
Anything man makes can be fixed.

I'm guessing you didn't get the Fast Times at Ridgmont High gag....
 
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You said:


Shanahan DID make it work. Really ****ing well, actually. We all hate him because he played Griffin on a bad knee and ruined, at a minimum, his career as a Washington Redskins QB. But to assert that Shanahan couldn't make it work with Griffin is nonsense.

Griffin regressed under Gruden. Not many would argue that. Ultimately, we can discuss if that was more Robert's fault or more Jay's fault, but the bottom line is that Griffin looked worse under Gruden.

As for owing Gruden a lot, I doubt sincerely Griff sees it that way. Whether he will go elsewhere and flame out ala Vince Young or succeed like Randall Cunningham, I have no idea. Maybe sitting this year will be invaluable for Griffin, I have no clue.

And neither do you.

Griffen regressed his second year under Shanahan
 
I think that's fair. Griffin should never have been allowed back in year 2. But year 3 was even worse, and I believe most would agree that Griffin had mostly recovered from the ACL repair by then (although perhaps minus some previous explosiveness). This is well worn ground. I think it's most reasonable to see Griffin's failure as multifactorial with plenty of fault to go around. I think it was likely Griffin stubbornly intent of returning early (hence the commercial). The team should have told him to stfu and that it wasn't happening. Blame to go around. In terms of his play after year one, it became obvious that Griffin either couldn't or wouldn't run the read option as the core offensive scheme, and that he was struggling mightily to run a more traditional offense. No QB operates in a vacuum and the lack of protection from a weak pass protection OL didn't help. That same line produced a pretty potent running attack though, so that should've helped Griffin as well as hurt him. Again, blame to go around. And even after year 1, the ferocious gambling competitor in Robert that made him so amazing in 2012, became a liability with his unwillingness to throw the ball away, slide at the end of runs, and trying to extend plays resulting in further injuries. Blame to go around.

Bottom line - it didn't work out. If it makes fans feel better to blame the Shanahan's - okay. Just don't talk about that great 2012 season as if the Shanahan's had nothing to do with it. I think grown-up fans recognize that a lot of things have to go right to be a perrenial playoff team. It pains me to acknowledge it, but Elephant probably came closest to getting it right from the outset about Griffin - that the read option that took the NFL by storm in 2012 wasn't in its purest form a sustainable offense, that Griffin couldn't physically withstand the punishment he would take at the NFL level, and that unless Griffin could reinvent himself as a traditional 'under center' multiple read QB, he wouldn't be special long-term. He was right.

Bottom line - there is no boogeyman here. Griffin, the Shanahans, hell - just some plain bad luck to a certain extent, all played a part in what transpired. The truth is rarely simple or as readily apparent as we want it to be. I don't know why we have to insist it is.
 
Tr1, do you believe all of the reports stating that he didn't want to run that offense anymore? So how is that the coach's fault?
 
The thing is, coming off a 2nd ACL injury, ANY legitimate NFL coaching staff is going to have major reservations about continuing to run a true read option. It would have been tantamount to irresponsibility to continue putting Griffin at risk for a career ending injury. And yes - I'm aware that he didn't hurt his ACL running the ball. But we saw even later, that he didn't have the frame or even a sense of self-preservation (unlike Russell Wilson) to have anything but a short career as a read option QB. If it was Griffin's idea that he never wanted to run the read option exclusively again, you know what, that was probably the smart decision. Whether or not he could succeed as anything other than a read option QB after making that decision - that's an entirely different question.
 

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