The Gruden Files - Year Two

[Henry]

Surprises me too OM. Leads me to a conclusion there is a hidden agenda for some.

It's always easy to assign nefarious motives or character flaws to people with whom one disagrees.

It is also, however, very lazy.

 

[McD5]

The theory that Robert's problems and ultimate demotion were a failure on Gruden's part, rather than Robert's, is one I believe will divide Redskins fans forever. That didn't surprise me a month or two ago. That the theory continues to be advanced in denigrating Gruden, given the apparent franchise turnaround happening right in front of our eyes, does.

If you look hard enough, there are probably still some fans to this day that believe Tebow was handled incorrectly.

 

[TomE]

Sorry, I have trouble placing the lion's share of the blame on the 23 year-old, third-year player.

The coach has to know how to coach guys like that. That's his job. Gruden didn't do that last year.

I'm sure we'll find out more about who's what when Griffin goes to another team, and how he fares there.

For us, well, we just have to hope Cousins, and the team, continues on this upward trajectory. 4 wins to 7 (or 8 or 9) wins is a very good sign. I wouldn't exactly call it complete and utter vindication just yet.

No, the teeth-gnashing over how Griffin was handled isn't going to go away anytime soon.

The guy who brought him in didn't know how to coach him in 2013 either.

I think we all inherently know there was more to the situation than a first year HC handling a 23 year old player.

Seeing Griff excel on another team might also be influenced by what transpired here under Gruden. Could be that inside burn of ' I'll show them' or maybe just knowing he still has a lot to learn and has to actually compete with his peers to get to where he wants to go.

Not Griff's fault for being gifted the team, too bad it took a new GM backing a second year HC to establish the proper hierarchy before the damage was done.

Either way, my teeth are worn to the nub, tired of it all and ready to move on.

 

[Henry]

The guy who brought him in didn't know how to coach him in 2013 either.

If I recall correctly, he got fired.

I think we all inherently know there was more to the situation than a first year HC handling a 23 year old player.

Sure. You want to throw some blame at the entire Washington Redskins organization as well, go right ahead.

But between Gruden and Griffin, I'm still inclined to blame Gruden for how badly things were handled.

If Gruden and the Redskins manage to move on and find happiness without Griffin, that's wonderful. I'll be happy too. But that won't change the fact that the Griffin situation was completely mishandled, by whomever was in the front office, as soon as Griffin's knee went the wrong way in Week 14.

I think the notion that what went wrong over the next few years rests mainly on the shoulders of the kid ... I think that's laughable.

Seeing Griff excel on another team might also be influenced by what transpired here under Gruden. Could be that inside burn of ' I'll show them' or maybe just knowing he still has a lot to learn and has to actually compete with his peers to get to where he wants to go.

Not Griff's fault for being gifted the team, too bad it took a new GM backing a second year HC to establish the proper hierarchy before the damage was done.

Either way, my teeth are worn to the nub, tired of it all and ready to move on.

I'm not the one who brought this whole thing up. But if it comes up, I'm happy to address it. From here to eternity.

 

[Om]

Sorry, I have trouble placing the lion's share of the blame on the 23 year-old, third-year player.

The coach has to know how to coach guys like that. That's his job. Gruden didn't do that last year.

Sports history is littered with fallen shooting-star players. When they flamed out, for whatever reason each one ultimately did, it wasn't always because their coach didn't know how to coach them up. Sometimes players just fail. I think in this case that's closer to the truth than pointing the finger at the professional coaches, the general manager or anyone else.

I'm sure we'll find out more about who's what when Griffin goes to another team, and how he fares there.

Perhaps. Except that they won't be getting the raw young superhero we did, they'll be getting a humbled guy who is right now staring his professional sports career in the face. If nothing else, it'll be interesting to watch Skins fans react to whatever comes.

For us, well, we just have to hope Cousins, and the team, continues on this upward trajectory. 4 wins to 7 (or 8 or 9) wins is a very good sign. I wouldn't exactly call it complete and utter vindication just yet.

If and when someone actually does, I'll help ya cyberslap 'em around.

 

[McD5]

Those that believe RG3 should be the starter have nothing to worry about.

If he really should be the starter, certainly Scot will see something so obvious and choose to keep him after this season.

Now if Scot can't see his incredible talent and decides to let him walk, should we then shift our anger to Scot?

 

[Goaldeje]

Those that believe RG3 should be the starter have nothing to worry about.

If he really should be the starter, certainly Scot will see something so obvious and choose to keep him after this season.

Now if Scot can't see his incredible talent and decides to let him walk, should we then shift our anger to Scot?

No, that will redouble my frustration aimed at Gruden for having no ability to integrate such a gifted, talented athlete into his offensive scheme, IN THIS SCENARIO. Scot can only go by what he sees on the field, practice and regular. Gruden decided he didn't want to play Griffin, so Scot had a training camp and two preseason games to evaluate Griffin. If he goes out and plays better than Cousins next year, the blame lies with Gruden.

 

[Henry]

Sports history is littered with fallen shooting-star players. When they flamed out, for whatever reason each one ultimately did, it wasn't always because their coach didn't know how to coach them up. Sometimes players just fail. I think in this case that's closer to the truth than pointing the finger at the professional coaches, the general manager or anyone else.

And that's where we continue to disagree regarding Griffin.

Gruden going 7-7 with Cousins doesn't suddenly change that. All that proves is that it's possible to win games without a superstar QB. We all know that.

I think WITH a superstar QB ... say, if Gruden DID somehow manage to find a way to work with Griffin and get the best out of him and Griffin played as well as he once did ... this 7-win team would be at 10 or 11 wins right now.

Maybe none of that could or would ever happen. We'll never know.

... and I promise not to bring it up if no one else does.

 

[Om]

Know what I'm reminded of?

That no matter how many times we revisit a topic, or how many times salient points are made, dissected, supported, left supported, presented, represented and/or misrepresented, it doesn't really matter. All we have to do is wait a bit until it comes around again, and it'll be like the subject never came up before.

I'm done with this particular rear-view funhouse mirror.

The Redskins are playing for a division title Saturday night.

 

[TomE]

If I recall correctly, he got fired.

Your recollection is correct, even my fading memory is still capable enough to recall this.

Sure. You want to throw some blame at the entire Washington Redskins organization as well, go right ahead.

Your right I sure do, upon even further recollection, this organization had a lot of 'stuff' happen in 2012 that played into 2013, cap crap, picks for a player, mishandled devastating injury to said player, "all in for 2013" and the not so subtle messages of breaking promises ready or not.

The football machine was still dominated by the marketing machine.

But between Gruden and Griffin, I'm still inclined to blame Gruden for how badly things were handled.

Yep, agree but to exclude blame and influences from elsewhere is naïve, the edict to get the kid 'straight' was a much bigger job than Gruden realized, add to that the 'holey shit' of becoming a first time HC in a major market and taking over the tattered mess of ego's and expectations of all involved. Blame Gruden for lack of preparation if you want but I suspect there's a big difference between looking at film and actually working with a guy real time and willingness to accept the work.

Things might have been handled better had Griff not injured his ankle, no longer was there time to work with the kid (yep, no QB coach). The season was in progress, change in plan, Gruden had to work his other QB's into something passable. All the work put into Griff (with limited results) during the off season was lost.

Griff is healthy (sort of) and back in, did some good, did some bad. WTF Jay..... you suck as a coach, well he abruptly let everyone know the problems in a news conference......... could anyone actually deny what we were seeing and not agree?

Yeah bad form, shouldn't have happened, he should have known better than defend himself by pointing out deficiencies in a kid that despite his best efforts, still had problems adapting his game to pro style. Not professional at all, bad on him.

If Gruden and the Redskins manage to move on and find happiness without Griffin, that's wonderful. I'll be happy too. But that won't change the fact that the Griffin situation was completely mishandled, by whomever was in the front office, as soon as Griffin's knee went the wrong way in Week 14.

Yep, goes right back to that whole blaming of the whole organization thing again, doesn't it.

Still have to admit tho, things did start to change with the arrival of Scot, marketing now has "you like that"..... which came to the forefront only after one of the greatest comebacks in team history on the field of play..... not some draft day celebration at FedEx well before OTA's, BTW, that was also when the marketing machine was playing their alumni card for the day, which was OK..

The football machine appears to now have the upper hand.... a good thing.

I think the notion that what went wrong over the next few years rests mainly on the shoulders of the kid ... I think that's laughable.

I've not laid total blame on the kid, I've said there is plenty of blame to go around but to get a hint of what I sense, give a kid the keys to a multibillion dollar team, declare him the 'savior', let him thrive in the chants of 'RG3', let him sense that all he does and says has worldwide influence... add that to his already accomplished 'glory' as a quite bright elite athlete, how could he not do wrong, let alone think that someone outside of his inner circle has a better way..... one could only surmise that there had to be some push back by the kid.

I'm not the one who brought this whole thing up. But if it comes up, I'm happy to address it. From here to eternity.

Heh, it does make for good forum fodder doesn't it

 

[McD5]

No, that will redouble my frustration aimed at Gruden for having no ability to integrate such a gifted, talented athlete into his offensive scheme, IN THIS SCENARIO. Scot can only go by what he sees on the field, practice and regular. Gruden decided he didn't want to play Griffin, so Scot had a training camp and two preseason games to evaluate Griffin. If he goes out and plays better than Cousins next year, the blame lies with Gruden.

This cracks me up.

Shanahan couldn't make it work with such a "gifted, talented athlete" and it didn't work out with Gruden either. I think you're confusing a gifted, talented athlete with a professional QB.

San Fran seems to have come to a similar conclusion, although maybe that coaching staff has also failed with Kap. Ditto for Buffalo and EJ Manuel, the Jets with Geno Smith--the list goes on and on.

If RG3 can salvage his career next year, a large part of that credit likely goes to Gruden. We've seen how well and quickly he can develop QBs like Dalton and Kirk, so the evidence would seem to suggest that being around Gruden and his staff has accelerated RG3's game as well. He's fortunate to be in such a great learning environment.

In time, rational people may come to understand that this was the best thing that could ever happen to Robert. Another year of learning in a great system away from the lights and media. And protected from what could have been another slew of injuries. He wasn't taking the team to the playoffs this year as a pocket passer.

 

[Goaldeje]

Could you take a moment to come down from your lofty all knowing football perch to explain how Shanahan failed? He screwed up royally the injury situation, but before that he crafted an offense that saw the incredibly gifted athlete we're discussing have the greatest rookie season in NFL history.

If Gruden's failures were closer to that level, we'd have a lot less to talk about.

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[fansince62]

It's not hyperbole or bloat for fans to enjoy the improvement we are seeing, and there's no shame in enjoying improvement over years past even if the ultimate goal isn't met. This team has improved. Is Gruden gonna continue to grow and learn and turn into a coach who can lead a team to the Super Bowl? You don't know the answer to that any more than anyone else. It's a pretty safe bet to bet against it, given the last few decades of this team, but this team has improved under his leadership, like it or not. You can excuse the successes, no matter how small you may find them, away from him all you want, passing it off to McL, but it's Gruden leading the troops. Teams mimic their HC. This team has heart, if not talent. It comes from somewhere. I think we'll find that having patience and allowing guys to grow to their potential might actually result in a team to be excited about. We've had an ADD owner who never see's things through, for which fans have blasted him. Fans who would now rather toss the coach and QB and start over before they've even had a chance to fail or succeed.

double A: I truly appreciate the concern and energy my personal feelings about Gruden inspire in such as yourself. it's nice to be so honored and respected!

Guess I arrive from a different experience set. I've been through it all. I really don't draw the life affirming and self-confirming energy some do from all of this - not directed at you.....or whatever personal void is being filled. I've seen it all before and can place it in context. I can see the positive steps forward over the last two seasons...well...this season... just like others. I also see the warts and will keep to my pov until the child man wins a championship.

I don't find Gruden particularly inspiring, talented or interesting. my cross to bear. per previous...when he wins a championship.....I'll listen. even then....long shot that it is....he may quit (runs in the family!).

 

[McD5]

Could you take a moment to come down from your lofty all knowing football perch to explain how Shanahan failed? He screwed up royally the injury situation, but before that he crafted an offense that saw the incredibly gifted athlete we're discussing have the greatest rookie season in NFL history.

If Gruden's failures were closer to that level, we'd have a lot less to talk about.

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Shanahan played the kid on a bad wheel. He chose another shot at a SB over the kid's health and longevity. He also stunted his development as a real QB with that offense.

That's what's so crazy about the vocal supporters of RG3. Shanahan is the one that deserves the bulk of the blame, and likely RG3 in second place for wanting to change up to become a pocket passer.

But that isn't enough. Shanahan is gone, so now an emotional bunch needs someone else to blame. Enter Gruden.

Gruden invested a ton of time into trying to help him develop into that pocket passer. When it became obvious to everyone that he was still far behind, he played the better player. What's absurd is people believing that he could quickly pick up what other QBs have been practicing since HS.

That's it. There's no conspiracy.

I'll bet that Robert looks back on this season with great memories five years from now. He's being paid. He's not taking hits. And he's developing in an environment where QBs have great success. He wasn't ready this year.

 

[fansince62]

Sorry, I have trouble placing the lion's share of the blame on the 23 year-old, third-year player.

The coach has to know how to coach guys like that. That's his job. Gruden didn't do that last year.

I'm sure we'll find out more about who's what when Griffin goes to another team, and how he fares there.

For us, well, we just have to hope Cousins, and the team, continues on this upward trajectory. 4 wins to 7 (or 8 or 9) wins is a very good sign. I wouldn't exactly call it complete and utter vindication just yet.

No, the teeth-gnashing over how Griffin was handled isn't going to go away anytime soon.

bingo. last season was an embarrassment by any standard. Gruden did NOTHING to improve the team last year - his presence by itself meant NOTHING. this season....McL rebuilt the O and d-lines, Callahan coached em up and Fewell introduced enough sanity into the secondary that the keystone play from last season has ended. McL is the real hero here - look at what has happened after injuries - we've had capable back-ups move into the fray. Gruden deserves credit for coaching to a possible division championship - but crowning him as a great signing or future top tier coach...at this point...is laughable IMO. at this point he strikes me as nothing more than a good play caller....not a brilliant strategist or some sort of offensive guru.

 

[Goaldeje]

McD, Shanahan maximized Griffin's talent in a way Gruden hasn't come close to touching. I will always hate him for playing Griffin on that bad knee, but to pretend Shanahan didn't somehow get enough out of Griffin is crazy.

The rest of your post might very well be true, I have no idea what Griffin is learning now or what he will think of his time here when he is gone. You made the point that Gruden got more out of Griffin than anyone which is just flat wrong. That's what I was responding to.

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[McD5]

McD, Shanahan maximized Griffin's talent in a way Gruden hasn't come close to touching. I will always hate him for playing Griffin on that bad knee, but to pretend Shanahan didn't somehow get enough out of Griffin is crazy.

The rest of your post might very well be true, I have no idea what Griffin is learning now or what he will think of his time here when he is gone. You made the point that Gruden got more out of Griffin than anyone which is just flat wrong. That's what I was responding to.

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Where did I say that Gruden got more out of Griffin than anyone? I never said that.

You do know what Griffin is learning right now. He's being coached up the same way that Cousins is. He's learning how to be a successful QB.

Griffin has found himself in a great situation.

And if he does succeed anywhere next season, he can thank Gruden and the staff for wasting a ton of their time and helping him develop this year--when that extension basically guaranteed that he'd never play.

He owes them a lot.

 

[stevenaa]

double A: I truly appreciate the concern and energy my personal feelings about Gruden inspire in such as yourself. it's nice to be so honored and respected!

Guess I arrive from a different experience set. I've been through it all. I really don't draw the life affirming and self-confirming energy some do from all of this - not directed at you.....or whatever personal void is being filled. I've seen it all before and can place it in context. I can see the positive steps forward over the last two seasons...well...this season... just like others. I also see the warts and will keep to my pov until the child man wins a championship.

I don't find Gruden particularly inspiring, talented or interesting. my cross to bear. per previous...when he wins a championship.....I'll listen. even then....long shot that it is....he may quit (runs in the family!).

I'm not sure what self-confirming energy or personal voids have to do with the price of tea in China. I just like to shoot the shit about my favorite football team. I'm not one who is sold on Gruden being the man. He may or may not prove to be. There's lots of ways this could play out. But there are improvements he gets credit for.

 

[Boone]

Gosh Al - I hope we don't like, succeed, and sorely disappoint you

I cannot believe this is being rehashed again. I really can't. Here's how it boils down to me. I loved Robert and I wish him nothing but the best in his future. But he is done in DC. I'm a Redskins fan, not a Robert Griffin fan. I root for the guy under center. And I cannot believe that on the eve of our biggest game since 2012, this tired non-productive debate is going to be had again, for the gazillionth time. It doesn't matter what you think or I think or why we think it - everyone's made up their mind on what happened and whose fault it was.

In a nutshell, no matter what you think, we all just need to get over it and focus on the guys who are actually playing and have us on the verge of the playoffs.

 

[stevenaa]

Oh Hell. What Boone said.