2012 Presidential Election

[Henry]

you sound like an abused girlfriend. Of course he knows exactly what hes doing, people like him do not achieve what they do not knowing. He seduces people with dreams, and uses there support to make a living for himself.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm making excuses for the guy. I'm not. I don't think I'm the only person that's ever accused Obama of being an inexperienced executive. I'm pretty sure that was always considered his primary weakness (other than the fact that he was very liberal.)

I don't think lack of experience is Gingrich's primary issue. As has been pointed out he's got plenty of experience. My problem with Gingrich is primarily that he's a conniving filthy liar, much like Clinton was. I think he has some serious character flaws, and I think he doesn't much care. When I hear people say things like 'I know he was a conniving filthy liar last time he was in office but I think he's changed now' ... THAT sounds like an abused girlfriend to me.

Of course all politicians are politicians. They all to a certain extent tell people what they think they want to hear, and they all make promises they can't possibly keep. They all make backroom deals and throw people under the bus as it suits them. I'm speaking about these people within that context.

For a politician, I think Obama is naive and idealistic.

For a politician, I think Gingrich is full of crap.

I am not suggesting one is better than the other.

 

[Goaldeje]

THis is the problem with liberalism. It does not take into account reality

Sarge, you should consider being a salesman. You are making me want to return to my conservative roots more and more each day. Great job by you!

I guess the counter to that broad, sweeping, absurd statement is that conservatives have no heart? Does that cover it well enough?

 

[Goaldeje]

Here is the funny thing. I personally know of several people who voted for Obama, and are disgusted by his lack of leadership and broken promises. Yet, they are as disgusted if not more, by the idea of aligning themselves with the Republican party, which has done nothing to make the situation better, unless you count throwing gasoline on the fire helping. These people are repulsed by what the GOP has become, and the idea of voting for someone like Newt makes them wretch for many of the reasons Henry has already enunciated.

The Republican Party needs to recognize this and drift towards the center to entice these people into voting at all. As it stands now, I think there will be a fair amount of people who are thoroughly disgusted with the choice between reelecting an incompetent, and reinforcing the preposterously bad behavior the Right has been and is continuing to demonstrate. The Repubs have time, but I wonder if they will acknowledge the problem?

 

[Henry]

Well put, Goaldeje. That's pretty much exactly where I am.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Bravo, Goaldie, bravo. Agree 100%.

 

[fansince62]

Here is the funny thing. I personally know of several people who voted for Obama, and are disgusted by his lack of leadership and broken promises. Yet, they are as disgusted if not more, by the idea of aligning themselves with the Republican party, which has done nothing to make the situation better, unless you count throwing gasoline on the fire helping. These people are repulsed by what the GOP has become, and the idea of voting for someone like Newt makes them wretch for many of the reasons Henry has already enunciated.

The Republican Party needs to recognize this and drift towards the center to entice these people into voting at all. As it stands now, I think there will be a fair amount of people who are thoroughly disgusted with the choice between reelecting an incompetent, and reinforcing the preposterously bad behavior the Right has been and is continuing to demonstrate. The Repubs have time, but I wonder if they will acknowledge the problem?

no ...the Republican party does not need to "drift" to the center. that is codespeak for perpetuating the current, hosed up situation. kinda llike Obama's patently pathetic "offer" to freeze spending at current levels (i.e., maintain staus quo ante). pls ask your friends to take their faux morality and move on. we all know what this is about: centralized versus decentralized control over our lives and resources....and...incidentally...a long-run decline in our standards of living. the country is breaking down...the culture has become a cess pool...it's current leadership hates its history more than it anticipates its future.

I do beleive some are misssing the dynamic here: after nearly 60 years (really longer) of progressive ascendancy in the courts, legislative and cultural fronts a very sizable 40%+ of the population has said "enough. F this...the results have been hugely damaging and cannot be sustained. we are no longer playing along and will not support this." businesses have already made this decision as evidenced by their flight overseas. small businesses are collapsing left and right. voting patterns are changing as a reflection of this new mindset. our children have a frightening future ahead of them....worse than I can recall in over 50 years. The Progressives CANNOT succeed without that 40%+ especially since it also includes a heavy weighting of the productive sectors of society. that 40% is ACTIVELY, legally fighting back.

Their (Progressives) model for human behavior is fundamentally wrong and they have overshot the mark HUGELY. As I have stated before..it all ultimately depends on the great wealth machine....while many progressives/liberals ideologically believe (or desire) that the pie is fixed and we have moved into an era of constraint driven "fairness/justice"..the reality is that the culture, attitudes, traditions, history...and most especially social goals cannot be reconsiled with this vision. the wealth producing machine HAS to keep growing to sustain current standards of living, advance that standard, improve the opportunities and participation of those at the bottom. no matter how one rationalizes the matter...there is 60+ years of evidence that the liberal/progressive ideology KILLS growth (we can get to security another time).

yea...yea...yea...another over-generalized rant. it's time to recognize what is going on...folks are picking sides and the battle is going to be fought over the long-term future...even longevity...of this country. it's not a Henry Clay like conversation any longer. Obama has forced this crisis whether anyone admits it or not....it's what he has wanted from day 1. well....we're going to learn over the next 4-5 years what the watershed decisions are going to be. we are a divided people. Obama will not rectify that problem...he wants to perpetuate it.

it doesn't matter if a Republican is elected President or not. the underlying dynamic is going to force this climatc clash of values, expectations and visions. it's already escalating...note the reactive behavior by Media Matters...they know what is at stake and what the real conflict is.

 

[Sarge]

Sarge, you should consider being a salesman. You are making me want to return to my conservative roots more and more each day. Great job by you!

I guess the counter to that broad, sweeping, absurd statement is that conservatives have no heart? Does that cover it well enough?

Come to the Dark Side my son! Together, we can rule the galaxy!

There's a great quote by Churchill I throw out in these spots;

"If you aren't liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you not conservative when you are 30, you have no brain"

 

[Henry]

Al, you do realize the Republican party has been around during that 60 years, and has played a major role in the direction this country has taken during that 60 years, right?

Goal is absolutely correct. The GOP needs to recognize that people are not just disgusted with Obama, or the Democrats, but with everything that has created this mess. And that includes the GOP. Maybe, like you say, that 40% is taking the easy way out and blaming Obama for everything. The rest of us ... the other 60% ... our opinion is kind of important too.

I'm open to voting for a GOP candidate at this point. But if they put up a bull**** artist like Gingrich, a throwback from an era that would be best left behind us, they aren't getting my vote.

 

[Goaldeje]

Al, serious question. Would you have us go back 60 years, and erase all progressivism? Don't you have to embrace the advances we have made regarding women and minorities, while allowing that in other areas we have perhaps gone too far?

And I agree with Henry (largely because he agrees with me ). The loud, vocal majority wants us all to believe that 80% of the country is diametrically opposed to each other, when in reality it is more like 30-40%. The rest of us are in the middle, and are NOT happy with either side. We think it is cute that people on both sides are so very, very certain that you are absolutely, 100% correct, and the other side is comprised of fools. We generally think the answer is somewhere in between.

Which is where we are.

 

[Goaldeje]

Come to the Dark Side my son! Together, we can rule the galaxy!

There's a great quote by Churchill I throw out in these spots;

"If you aren't liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you not conservative when you are 30, you have no brain"

Must be true. I have no brain. I have been wondering why I continue to root for the Skins.

 

[Sarge]

I guess that makes two brainless people

 

[Goaldeje]

I guess that makes two brainless people

I think it's more than two, look around.

 

[fansince62]

Al, you do realize the Republican party has been around during that 60 years, and has played a major role in the direction this country has taken during that 60 years, right?

Goal is absolutely correct. The GOP needs to recognize that people are not just disgusted with Obama, or the Democrats, but with everything that has created this mess. And that includes the GOP. Maybe, like you say, that 40% is taking the easy way out and blaming Obama for everything. The rest of us ... the other 60% ... our opinion is kind of important too.

I'm open to voting for a GOP candidate at this point. But if they put up a bull**** artist like Gingrich, a throwback from an era that would be best left behind us, they aren't getting my vote.

not what I am saying Henry. That 40% is not blaming Obama...he's just a symbol...a figurehead...for powerful, moneyed interests sitting behind all of this. And I am not saying the Republicans don't share some responsibility for the current state of affairs...especially both Bushes. but as I survey the landscape and my decades of experience...it is unequivocably clear in my mind what the main thrust has been politically and culturally and who pushed those interests. and it has not been the Republicans.....as I have stated before...I view them as the lesser of two incompetencies.

don't vote for Gingrich. I respect your decision process. but that doesn't alter the real battle that is now unfolding in front of us.

btw...that other 60%...it's not united. maybe 20-25% is really bedrock Progressive/Liberal. the rest flucuate. either way...the system cannot survive unless that 40% get onboard. my point is that that is the real challenge of our times. if Porgressives thinnk that simply ram-rodding their agenda through the courts or dallying off to International organizations like Obama has done will settle the matter...they are wrong. a fat, dumb and happy electorate is no longer so....their standard of living is now threatened (as is that of their children) and they are organizing, fighting back. that won't stop no matter who is elected in 2012.

 

[fansince62]

I think it's more than two, look around.

maybe. then again...I root with my heart....not my cranium.

 

[redskins26]

Nah, I think Henry nailed it. He's in over his head, and doesn't know how to fix things. It's a shame, because he really does speak well and a lot of his goals are noble, but I don't think he has the tools to be able to reach his ideals.
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i dont think reading from a telepromptert qualifies as speaking well he stumbles for words when that teleprompter isnt there

 

[fansince62]

Al, serious question. Would you have us go back 60 years, and erase all progressivism? Don't you have to embrace the advances we have made regarding women and minorities, while allowing that in other areas we have perhaps gone too far?

And I agree with Henry (largely because he agrees with me ). The loud, vocal majority wants us all to believe that 80% of the country is diametrically opposed to each other, when in reality it is more like 30-40%. The rest of us are in the middle, and are NOT happy with either side. We think it is cute that people on both sides are so very, very certain that you are absolutely, 100% correct, and the other side is comprised of fools. We generally think the answer is somewhere in between.

Which is where we are.

No one is arguiing for erasing EVERYTHING. I might add that there is also more than meets the eye to what you imagine is progress....for example do organizations like NOW really advocate equality for ALL women...or just those who fit a certain profile? Does the Black Congressional Caucus really advocate equal treatment for ALL Blacks...or just certain subsets? or not equality but preferential treatment? So yea...there is good mixed in with the bad. Going after the bad has been so stigmatized that anyone who attempts to do so is labled a misogynist or racist. that's how the game is played...just watch MSNBC, listen to Bill Maher...or Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi..etc...etc...if you think otherwise. well...if a crude hammer is needed to pound the bad out of the system...so be it....

as for your pov.....I disagree on what is playing out. those "in the middle" will become very focused and will chose sides once their incomes and standards of living are threatened with real immediacy......once they are suddenly told by some State authority how their children must be raised....once the Federal government really gets earnest about inflating energy and food costs while doing nothing to increase supply or creating business conditions that support complementary salary/wage increases.....or some CNB weapon goes off in an upwind metropolitan area.

 

[servumtuum]

No one is arguiing for erasing EVERYTHING. I might add that there is also more than meets the eye to what you imagine is progress....for example do organizations like NOW really advocate equality for ALL women...or just those who fit a certain profile? Does the Black Congressional Caucus really advocate equal treatment for ALL Blacks...or just certain subsets? or not equality but preferential treatment? So yea...there is good mixed in with the bad. Going after the bad has been so stigmatized that anyone who attempts to do so is labled a misogynist or racist. that's how the game is played...just watch MSNBC, listen to Bill Maher...or Harry Reid/Nancy Pelosi..etc...etc...if you think otherwise. well...if a crude hammer is needed to pound the bad out of the system...so be it....

as for your pov.....I disagree on what is playing out. those "in the middle" will become very focused and will chose sides once their incomes and standards of living are threatened with real immediacy......once they are suddenly told by some State authority how their children must be raised....once the Federal government really gets earnest about inflating energy and food costs while doing nothing to increase supply or creating business conditions that support complementary salary/wage increases.....or some CNB weapon goes off in an upwind metropolitan area.

Ah, a fellow dystopian dreamer, how nice. Yours seem to be somewhat Orwellian, though, I tend more toward Aldous Huxley's scenario of the disintegration of what we politely, if inaccurately, term "civilization."

 

[fansince62]

Ah, a fellow dystopian dreamer, how nice. Yours seem to be somewhat Orwellian, though, I tend more toward Aldous Huxley's scenario of the disintegration of what we politely, if inaccurately, term "civilization."

Serv...no one I know...on this board or elsewhere....is inherently disposed to ignoring the plight of others. nor is anyone I know adamantly opposed to contributing anything to the social good/les fortunate. however, and I suffer no compunction in saying this, there is a point where I say "NO MORE."

1) I am doing my part.
2) Much of this should be voluntary...not forced by the State
3) Not everyone...especially those who ask the most...contribute equally (look at national security)
4) The government keeps perpetuating if not exacerabating the problem. At some point it becomes the proverbial example of insanity.

and I refuse to walk through your Doors of Perception!

 

[servumtuum]

Fansince, you do, of course, know that there is usually a touch-sometimes more-of sarcasm in my comments at times. The ability to take a sardonic perspective helps avoid terminal misanthropy.

 

[fansince62]

Fansince, you do, of course, know that there is usually a touch-sometimes more-of sarcasm in my comments at times. The ability to take a sardonic perspective helps avoid terminal misanthropy.

cmon now....I know that. I worked that whole lead in just to get to the Doors of Perception reference!

with ya all the way bub.