Random Commanders Thoughts

[burgold]

Maybe, but Samuels actually played a pretty long time ago believe it or not. HIs last game was 16 years ago.

 

[DWinzit]

Are either Paulson old enough to remember Jake and/or Lachey?

I highly doubt it. Logan is older, born in 87. He was not a Redskin fan growing up. I believe Joe retired I 93 and Lachey in 95

 

[burgold]

Yeah, but they aren't supposed to be fans but football experts and experts on the 'skins/commanders specifically. So, I don't give them any grace on that level. It'd be like me talking about the best Washington QBs of all time and skipping Sammy Baugh or Sonny Jurgenson.

 

[DWinzit]

Yeah, but they aren't supposed to be fans but football experts and experts on the 'skins/commanders specifically. So, I don't give them any grace on that level. It'd be like me talking about the best Washington QBs of all time and skipping Sammy Baugh or Sonny Jurgenson.

Similar to you, I'd have included them, but I watched their whole careers.

I figure is just about the modern times.

Not that I am offering excuses but perhaps if they had looked into them other reasons could have risen:

Lachey did play for other teams and his last few years here were riddled with injury.

Jacoby was known to have moved around the line over years not just at T

 

[HTTR]

RG3’s rookie campaign is still in the top 3 or 4 seasons we’ve had in the decades since our last Super Bowl, so he was certainly great that year, and the way it ended was a tragedy.

I do think Shanahan gets some blame for playing him injured, and this is especially obvious in hindsight. He was never the same again after that.

I also think RG3 gets a lot of blame for how his career turned out. For example, there is a story about his dad calling Shanahan to complain that Kirk Cousins was running a different offense than his son, when really he should have been thanking him for designing an offense that used pistol formation and option plays to emphasize his strengths. So it is fair to criticize RG3 for his ego and inability to learn and develop, and this latest episode still blaming the coach for his failed career is more evidence of that.

As they say, both things can be true at the same time. Shanny should have sat him when he got hurt, and RG3’s ego contributed to his downfall.

Well, if it’s especially obvious in hindsight, it seems kind of hard to criticize him then. In fact, to me it was only obvious in hindsight. I don’t think very many fans if any were clamoring to take him out of the game in the moment. And it was a playoff game, so guys are going to play hurt. It sucks about what happened, but the injuries he sustained are something that guys fully recover from all the time. It’s not the reason his career went down the drain. He was exposed as being unable to read defenses and make plays from the pocket effectively at the NFL level. Once defenses figured that out, they weren’t going to let him use his legs and he was unwilling and/or unable to make the adjustment. That’s on him and in my opinion it’s unfair to put blame on Shanahan.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Are either Paulson old enough to remember Jake and/or Lachey?

Definitely Bram. Logan no.

I’m surprised Bram wouldn’t have at least mentioned the hogs. If I remember correctly, he had season tickets to RFK as a kid during the glory years.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I didn’t hear the segment but based on that, I’d assume they were speaking about more modern history.

Probably. However if they’re going back to Samuels, he was drafted in 2000. That’s not THAT far way from when they hogs played in the 80’s and into the early 90’s.

It’s clearly not a big deal but I’m surprised neither would at least “tip of the cap” to the LTs of the glory years. Especially since Bram lived through them.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Well, if it’s especially obvious in hindsight, it seems kind of hard to criticize him then. In fact, to me it was only obvious in hindsight. I don’t think very many fans if any were clamoring to take him out of the game in the moment. And it was a playoff game, so guys are going to play hurt. It sucks about what happened, but the injuries he sustained are something that guys fully recover from all the time. It’s not the reason his career went down the drain. He was exposed as being unable to read defenses and make plays from the pocket effectively at the NFL level. Once defenses figured that out, they weren’t going to let him use his legs and he was unwilling and/or unable to make the adjustment. That’s on him and in my opinion it’s unfair to put blame on Shanahan.

Thank you for this. I have been convinced for years that the majority of the Washington fans who have been ripping Shanny for keeping Griffin in were not screaming for them to take him out in a 7 point playoff game. I saw Byron Leftwich being carried to the line of scrimmage by his teammates his ankle was so bad. I never once heard the coach criticized, and that was a college player.

I clearly remember a picture in the Post circling 5 open receivers with the caption "RGIII took a sack on this play. I have no idea why". His failure was not about the injury and I'm so tired of that excuse. He never learned how to play the position.

 

[Boone]

With most things, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. I think it's fair to say that the Shanahans have a well-deserved reputation for being stubborn and authoritative coaches. I don't know if Griffin was the QB they wanted or if he was imposed on them. It certainly would've been hard to argue not to take Griffin based on his college career. It's also hard to know how well his personality and attitude could be fully vetted prior to getting to the pros. To a certain extent, you can never fully know how a college player will transition to the NFL, so I don't put what eventually happened on either the GM or the scouts or the Shanahans. But I do ultimately put Griffin's failure to replicate that amazing rookie year and his inability to grow and expand his QBing ability on him - not his coaches. Those who will defend RG3 will say that there is no way to know what went on behind the scenes, that the Shanahans didn't manage Griffin well, etc... and those things may be true at some level. But I think it what we have heard and especially, what we saw even after Griffin left DC and even now out of football, is that he has an over-sized ego, never fully embraced his role and responsbility in addressing the flaws and weaknesses in his game, and spends a lot of time blaming others for his shortcomings. Those qualities are not particularly helpful in becoming a successful career starting QB in the NFL.

 

[burgold]

Just focusing on that one playoff game, gbear2 and I were there and when he got hurt again in the first half both of us kept talking about how he needed to be pulled. Being at the game, I don’t know how the announcers handled it but it was really obvious he couldn’t move or function out there.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

With most things, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. I think it's fair to say that the Shanahans have a well-deserved reputation for being stubborn and authoritative coaches. I don't know if Griffin was the QB they wanted or if he was imposed on them. It certainly would've been hard to argue not to take Griffin based on his college career. It's also hard to know how well his personality and attitude could be fully vetted prior to getting to the pros. To a certain extent, you can never fully know how a college player will transition to the NFL, so I don't put what eventually happened on either the GM or the scouts or the Shanahans. But I do ultimately put Griffin's failure to replicate that amazing rookie year and his inability to grow and expand his QBing ability on him - not his coaches. Those who will defend RG3 will say that there is no way to know what went on behind the scenes, that the Shanahans didn't manage Griffin well, etc... and those things may be true at some level. But I think it what we have heard and especially, what we saw even after Griffin left DC and even now out of football, is that he has an over-sized ego, never fully embraced his role and responsbility in addressing the flaws and weaknesses in his game, and spends a lot of time blaming others for his shortcomings. Those qualities are not particularly helpful in becoming a successful career starting QB in the NFL.

So what I've heard Shanahan say on the Kevin Sheehan Show ages ago is that he was entirely in favor of Griffin but he had 2 reservations:

1. That Griffin had never really been tested, and from a personality/maturity perspective, he had questions how he would react to adversity.
2. That everybody had to be aware Griffin couldn't run a traditional NFL offense right away, and it was going to take time to blend what he could do, and what he needed to learn.

Then Shanahan said with the $18m salary cap penalty, he would not have made the trade. But it was too late.

My order of blame for what happened with Griffin:
1. Snyder: He treated Griffin differently and undercut the coaches in doing so. He was so vested in Griffin's success, he was a large part of his downfall. He allowed Griffin to dictate the way he was used, and that was a disaster.
2. Griffin: Lack of maturity, lack of responsibility, oversized ego. And, in some ways, all of that could be overcome-able, but he also couldn't stay available. The ACL tear, then he dislocated his ankle in 2014 (Jay's first year)
3. The Shanahans: Were they in on Griffin from the beginning? Yes. (Based on the above) However, when Griffin wouldn't take to coaching and demanded things were done his way, they became extremely sour and vindictive about it. Then they wanted to prove they could win with Kirk. Mike should have had the maturity himself to tell the owner to shove it or fire him right then and there. And Snyder needed to tell Griffin Mike was in charge and he needed to do what he was told. I have a bigger issue with the way Mike dealt with Snyder than the way Mike dealt with Griffin.

 

[HTTR]

So what I've heard Shanahan say on the Kevin Sheehan Show ages ago is that he was entirely in favor of Griffin but he had 2 reservations:

1. That Griffin had never really been tested, and from a personality/maturity perspective, he had questions how he would react to adversity.
2. That everybody had to be aware Griffin couldn't run a traditional NFL offense right away, and it was going to take time to blend what he could do, and what he needed to learn.

Then Shanahan said with the $18m salary cap penalty, he would not have made the trade. But it was too late.

My order of blame for what happened with Griffin:
1. Snyder: He treated Griffin differently and undercut the coaches in doing so. He was so vested in Griffin's success, he was a large part of his downfall. He allowed Griffin to dictate the way he was used, and that was a disaster.
2. Griffin: Lack of maturity, lack of responsibility, oversized ego. And, in some ways, all of that could be overcome-able, but he also couldn't stay available. The ACL tear, then he dislocated his ankle in 2014 (Jay's first year)
3. The Shanahans: Were they in on Griffin from the beginning? Yes. (Based on the above) However, when Griffin wouldn't take to coaching and demanded things were done his way, they became extremely sour and vindictive about it. Then they wanted to prove they could win with Kirk. Mike should have had the maturity himself to tell the owner to shove it or fire him right then and there. And Snyder needed to tell Griffin Mike was in charge and he needed to do what he was told. I have a bigger issue with the way Mike dealt with Snyder than the way Mike dealt with Griffin.

I have to disagree here. People always seem to make excuses for him, but for me RG himself is to blame for his failures. He was a highly flawed player who flashed briefly solely based on athleticism and thanks to an ingenious scheme developed by the Shanahii. Sure, Snydely screwed up everything he touched as always, but RG would have sucked in the end even if he never met Dan Snyder. The Shanahans simply wanted to start the best player which was not RG. Nothing vindictive about that, it’s exactly what any good coach would do. We are talking about one of the better staffs assembled in recent times, no?

 

[Ashburn Dave]

So glad we don't have to live this bafoon anymore......................oh, wait!

 

[HTTR]

So glad we don't have to live this bafoon anymore......................oh, wait!

🤮🤮🤮

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I have to disagree here. People always seem to make excuses for him, but for me RG himself is to blame for his failures. He was a highly flawed player who flashed briefly solely based on athleticism and thanks to an ingenious scheme developed by the Shanahii. Sure, Snydely screwed up everything he touched as always, but RG would have sucked in the end even if he never met Dan Snyder. The Shanahans simply wanted to start the best player which was not RG. Nothing vindictive about that, it’s exactly what any good coach would do. We are talking about one of the better staffs assembled in recent times, no?

I don't know if I completely agree with that.

I think he had talent. I think in the right environment, he could have matured better. And at least could have been productive for more than one year.

Now, keep in mind, I put Griffin second in the fault for his demise here. Maybe he would have failed anywhere eventually. However he failed he as fast as he did because of the way Snyder handled the situation.

We was REALLY good in 2012. And part of that is because of the scheme which Kyle put him in, but a lot of it is that he was just really good.

And he could have remained really good with 2 conditions:
1. He stayed healthy
2. He accepted coaching.

Look, I probably have a more negative view of Griffin as a person than most. I think the way he has treated people, and especially the way he openly flaunted his infidelity to his first wife over Instagram is deplorable. And shows true lack of character. And he just generally sucks as a human being.

So no argument there.

But flip side, Snyder REALLY had a hand in screwing up Griffin. I believe that if Griffin landed with the Steelers or Ravens, for example, and in a stable organization led by good culture building coaches, he would have had a much better chance of at least more than one year of success.

 

[Conn]

No amount of accepting coaching would have made Griffin a longterm star, I’ve come to accept that. He was immensely physically talented but he didn’t have it going on upstairs. He was never going to learn to really read a defense and throw with anticipation based on coverage without abusing play action. He spent years as a backup around the league, including with the Ravens, and didn’t gain veteran smarts like we’ve seen some busts do, he didn’t become Geno Smith or Sam Darnold despite having a hell of an arm and the ability to still run in a straight line. The pocket presence wasn’t really there and he never learned what the hell he was looking at. And defenses only got better at disguising their intentions over the last ten years. He would’ve disappointed in the end

And I should clarify it would have helped him if he was a film hound, but not everybody has the capacity to develop a computer brain and really dissect defenses. It isn’t just a matter of effort and will. Having seen and heard enough of him during and after his career, I really just don’t think he’s a smart guy and I think no matter his attitude, physical talent, and work ethic (even if he maxed out on those things), I just don’t think it was happening for him. Sometimes trying really hard and really wanting it (even if he had done that) just isn’t enough.

 

[HailYeah]

I will always have a soft spot for RG3, after the joy of 2012 and now because he still seems to think of himself as a Redskin. But overall my view of RG3 is generally the same.

I remember watching one of Baylor's games towards the end of the 2011 season. I was fascinated by RG3 and thought what a dream it would be if the Skins got him. After the game he was doing an on-field interview (maybe with Erin Andrews after BU vs OU game?) There was something that bothered and stuck with me afterwards. It was beyond confidence, but I didn't want to outright say arrogance - because I couldn't point to what he said or how he said it exactly. It was just a subtle vibe that came through the tv and took me down a notch on him.

I never shook that vibe, but pushed it to the side and chalked it up to being a little cocky as a young man with such talent and success. I still wanted him over Luck and was thrilled when we Colts took Luck - though that draft night I still had that deep down nagging misgiving back from that interview crop back up. Again, I pushed the feeling to the side.

2012 happened and I almost completely forgot about that interview.

2013 and that memory of that interview came flooding back.

I don't know the man personally, so I will not call him selfish or at least will never say he purposefully tried to hurt his team for his own gain. I do think he has a stubbornness in his personality and that stubbornness is the reason his NFL career flamed-out so quickly - regardless of injury and any malfeasance on the part of the team staff.

Worked with a guy 6-7 years back who played with him in college. Talked about how arrogant and self absorbed he was. He’s proven that time and time again. Enjoyed watching him the player, but never cared for him the person. At least I enjoy Jayden the person as much as Jayden the player.

 

[NoCalSkins]

If I was Shanahan I would have pulled RGIII after the Sherman INT because it showed that the hit he took on his second TD pass injured his knee enough that he couldn't effecrively plant on the knew because Garcon was definitely open but that ball was underthrown which wasn't characteristic of RGIII.

 

[SkinsFTW]

If I was Shanahan I would have pulled RGIII after the Sherman INT because it showed that the hit he took on his second TD pass injured his knee enough that he couldn't effecrively plant on the knew because Garcon was definitely open but that ball was underthrown which wasn't characteristic of RGIII.

If I was Shanahan I would have taken any one of 28-30 different HC Jobs over working for Doofus Dan.

 

[Conn]

If I was Shanahan I would have taken any one of 28-30 different HC Jobs over working for Doofus Dan.

He had gotten used to running personnel in Denver (mostly poorly, with some big hits on offense and total tragedy on defense), and nobody else in the NFL wanted him doing that. I’m not saying he would’ve gone un-hired, but I bet his market was going to be less hot than we’d think. And he wanted a guarantee that he could bring along Kyle, who at that time was unproven and got a lot of shit for being a nepo hire.

He came here because he thought he secured roster control, by being able to handpick Bruce Allen ahead of time (to be hired “before him”) expecting a yes-man. He didn’t anticipate that the real danger with Snyder was adding another conniving snake to the viper nest, who would eventually win the power struggle by pulling a Grima Wormtongue and out-politicking him in the box seats while Mike focused on football matters.