(New Poll) The Washington Commanders Brand 2.0: Beer Drinkers and Hail Raisers

[Voice_of_Reason]

For those saying that the logo wasn't workable in 2020, I think there is some truth to that... but idiot Snyder never even spoke with the Wetzel family or the Blackfoot tribe that he was associated with. Had he done that, I truly believe they could have separated the perceived issue from the logo... but again... Dan (and Wright) are incompetent morons

They should have gone to the Wetzel's in the 2000's, or as soon as he bought the team, and started a partnership with them on the logo. As a means to keep the name, show how much they respected the tribe who created the logo.

But Dan was a low-life scum sucking bottom dweller and that kind of move would not have been in his playbook. Or Bruce Allen's. And what's terribly ironic about that is the logo was presented to his father.

And Jason Wright, who I had some high hopes for, turned out to be an absolute damn fool.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I looked it up to make sure. Washington’s official title during the Revolutionary War was Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army.

Sure. And everybody called him General.

 

[Conn]

I never really considered this as an option because it was never an option.

I don't think I would like it, but I guess it would have been fine.

I actually take back a little bit of what I said earlier: in my absolute ideal situation, which was never going to happen because of small minded morons, I would have worked with the Native American community, and a specific tribe, maybe the tribe that designed the logo, and become the name of a specific tribe with their blessing and support. Kindof like the Seminoles and Florida State, though I know the relationship there has been strained at times.

There was nothing stopping the team from doing that for years. It would have kept the Native American feel, it would have been good for whatever community they partnered with, I think it would have been acceptable to most fans because they could have kept the exact same team colors and imagery.

Different but similar.

I would have supported that. And if the team worked really well with the tribe, it could have really been beneficial for everybody.

But I don't think it was ever considered.

Snyder was such a POS that to reduce the heat one year, in 2014 he started a charity called Original Americans Foundation. The very next year he stopped donating, don’t think he ever put money into it again after that first year. It’s unfortunate that WE are the ones who suffered, but from an unbiased outsiders’ perspective, most people would agree Snyder deserved to lose everything he cared about in regards to this franchise. We are the collateral damage.

 

[Maglite to the Face]

Sure. And everybody called him General.

Technically they called him SIR.

And they can't use Generals because that's the basketball team that the Harlem Globetrotters opens a can of whup-ass on every night.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Snyder was such a POS that to reduce the heat one year, in 2014 he started a charity called Original Americans Foundation. The very next year he stopped donating, don’t think he ever put money into it again after that first year. It’s unfortunate that WE are the ones who suffered, but from an unbiased outsiders’ perspective, most people would agree Snyder deserved to lose everything he cared about in regards to this franchise. We are the collateral damage.

I don't disagree.

What is fascinating is that he so often operated against his own best interest.

And while he lost everything he cared about in regards to the franchise, he still walked away with 7+ Billy in cold, hard cash.

I wish the NFL had been able to just confiscate the team from him. That would have been ideal.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Technically they called him SIR.

And they can't use Generals because that's the basketball team that the Harlem Globetrotters opens a can of whup-ass on every night.

Yeah, and I wasn't suggesting Generals as a name, in fact I said that I didn't want Generals as a name.

I just think we're trying to link Washington to Commanders in a way that's a little like reaching your hand around your head to touch your nose. And I am pretty sure Jason Wright had no concept of this at all.

 

[AngryChuckT]

I never really considered this as an option because it was never an option.

I don't think I would like it, but I guess it would have been fine.

I actually take back a little bit of what I said earlier: in my absolute ideal situation, which was never going to happen because of small minded morons, I would have worked with the Native American community, and a specific tribe, maybe the tribe that designed the logo, and become the name of a specific tribe with their blessing and support. Kindof like the Seminoles and Florida State, though I know the relationship there has been strained at times.

There was nothing stopping the team from doing that for years. It would have kept the Native American feel, it would have been good for whatever community they partnered with, I think it would have been acceptable to most fans because they could have kept the exact same team colors and imagery.

Different but similar.

I would have supported that. And if the team worked really well with the tribe, it could have really been beneficial for everybody.

But I don't think it was ever considered.

Exactly what should have been done and what I have thought over the years even pre-2020.

I was in law school in the early 00s reading the Harjo case in an IP law class and remember classmates talking about how “racist” the Redskins name was. No matter how I explained the history and how it is a name used by a lot of local western tribe schools along with the logo, it did not matter. The fact is to some especially a small number (but very vocal) of activists it is offensive.

I distinctly remember talking to a classmate who when to FSU undergrad and telling him that the Skins need to do what the FSU did. I was never someone who wanted the name changed, but I realized it was going to at some point or another. If some 28 year old still trying to figure out his life recognized that - why couldn’t our “smart businessman” owner figure it out before it was too late and it was scorched earth on our Skins.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

why couldn’t our “smart businessman” owner figure it out before it was too late

We didn’t have one smart business man (or woman) in a leadership position from the day after JKC died until Harris bought the team.

 

[Maglite to the Face]

We didn’t have one smart business man (or woman) in a leadership position from the day after JKC died until Harris bought the team.

Right, Snyder got lucky and hit the jackpot during the dotcom era of the 90s. Like a lot of people who got rich during that time, it didn't really require any special skill... right place, right time...which has happened far more throughout human history than we want to admit.

His only skill after buying the team seems to have been his cruel efforts to squeeze even more money out of the fans...and suing old ladies who couldn't afford season tickets any more. He never learned anything new and treated the team like a plaything.

 

[Riggo44]

Snyder was such a POS that to reduce the heat one year, in 2014 he started a charity called Original Americans Foundation. The very next year he stopped donating, don’t think he ever put money into it again after that first year. It’s unfortunate that WE are the ones who suffered, but from an unbiased outsiders’ perspective, most people would agree Snyder deserved to lose everything he cared about in regards to this franchise. We are the collateral damage.

This is also my retort to anyone criticizing us as fans, or calling us fair weather, or non existent: "You have Dan Snyder as an owner for 25 years, see where your fan base is at."

MetLife, for example, is half empty by week 8 every year. Imagine how empty it would be under Snyder.

Ok, off topic a bit, but people really underestimate how much damage Snyder did across the board.

 

[Riggo44]

They should have gone to the Wetzel's in the 2000's, or as soon as he bought the team, and started a partnership with them on the logo. As a means to keep the name, show how much they respected the tribe who created the logo.

This is why the Chiefs and Seminoles are not brought up--they have agreements with local tribes that make it okay. I have no idea why Snyder didn't form some kind of agreement with Red Mesa. That should have been a slam dunk.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

This is why the Chiefs and Seminoles are not brought up--they have agreements with local tribes that make it okay. I have no idea why Snyder didn't form some kind of agreement with Red Mesa. That should have been a slam dunk.

I still think the Tomahawk Chop is cringy. But you're right.

There was somebody on (I think) Galdi's podcast talking about it a while ago. The Chiefs go to a fairly good extent to make sure they're in good with the local tribes. I'm sure there are times things get frosty, but they do a good job with that.

I'm pretty sure if the locals told them to stop the chop, they would either:

1. Do it
2. Pay them off enough that they stopped worrying about it.

 

[Primus Porcus]

This is why the Chiefs and Seminoles are not brought up--they have agreements with local tribes that make it okay. I have no idea why Snyder didn't form some kind of agreement with Red Mesa. That should have been a slam dunk.

Cuz he's an idiot. He had a goose with a golden egg and he relegated it to the red light district. Sure, he still made a profit, but had he cultivated it the right way, it would have turned into bitcoin.

If i had owned the team, the Wetzel family, as well as the Blackfoot tribe, would have been sick and tired of how much i would have been trying to support and honor them. He absolutely molested the actual connection between the name, and it's origins.

 

[Conn]

Cuz he's an idiot. He had a goose with a golden egg and he relegated it to the red light district. Sure, he still made a profit, but had he cultivated it the right way, it would have turned into bitcoin.

If i had owned the team, the Wetzel family, as well as the Blackfoot tribe, would have been sick and tired of how much i would have been trying to support and honor them. He absolutely molested the actual connection between the name, and it's origins.

If we’re being honest, that level of hypothetical interest and magnanimity only exists because of the controversy and the “loud minority” of offended people everyone always likes to blame. Because before Washington fans found themselves having to defend their team name at every turn in the last couple decades, 98% of them didn’t know the origins of the logo or care at all. Most people here didn’t even look into it until the early 2010’s at the earliest when steam began to pick up around the controversy.

So maybe Snyder missing the opportunity to do the right thing is obvious in hindsight, but only because of the controversy existing in the first place. The vast majority of fans would have had no idea what the “right thing” to do was before having to learn about it to defend their interests in the name, and then due to watching Snyder bungle it. But let’s not pretend there were legions of fans running around arguing for these sorts of “obvious” things before the name was threatened. Most had no idea it would be appropriate or correct (if it is). The name needing defending in the first place is the only reason most people became educated on the topic. Players were even being coached by PR people on what to say, eventually.

 

[Primus Porcus]

If we’re being honest, that level of hypothetical interest and magnanimity only exists because of the controversy and the “loud minority” of offended people everyone always likes to blame. Because before Washington fans found themselves having to defend their team name at every turn in the last couple decades, 98% of them didn’t know the origins of the logo or care at all. Most people here didn’t even look into it until the early 2010’s at the earliest when steam began to pick up around the controversy.

So maybe Snyder missing the opportunity to do the right thing is obvious in hindsight, but only because of the controversy existing in the first place. The vast majority of fans would have had no idea what the “right thing” to do was before having to learn about it to defend their interests in the name, and then due to watching Snyder bungle it. But let’s not pretend there were legions of fans running around arguing for these sorts of “obvious” things before the name was threatened. Most had no idea it would be appropriate or correct (if it is). The name needing defending in the first place is the only reason most people became educated on the topic. Players were even being coached by PR people on what to say, eventually.

I think you’re selling a lot of fans short, and even if there was a lot of ‘learning’ late in the game, it wasn’t exactly rocket science to know that treating your fans like shit, as well as completely ignoring the heritage of the name/logo while you printed a mint off of it was a bad look. Our most beloved fan in Chief Z was a better representation of the history than anything Snyder ever endorsed, and when the going did get ‘bad’ he hid behind the NFLs endorsement of the brand for as long as he could.

 

[Conn]

I think you’re selling a lot of fans short, and even if there was a lot of ‘learning’ late in the game, it wasn’t exactly rocket science to know that treating your fans like shit, as well as completely ignoring the heritage of the name/logo while you printed a mint off of it was a bad look. Our most beloved fan in Chief Z was a better representation of the history than anything Snyder ever endorsed, and when the going did get ‘bad’ he hid behind the NFLs endorsement of the brand for as long as he could.

RIP to Chief Z and we have a deep history with him as a fanbase, but Chief Z is one of the most glaring examples of where real critics of the brand break with the fans who think some niceties towards local tribes would have made it all okay. Snyder’s idiocy and cruelty hastened the brand’s downfall, but none of that was ever going to do it long term. Chief Z is the biggest example I see cited from the groups (including NA groups) on the “our culture is not your costume/mascot” subject. No matter his beloved status with the fanbase or his positive intentions, I’m sorry but a black American wearing a chief headdress and the like is exactly what they’re talking about. If he hadn’t passed when he did (shame that it was), things would have gotten mighty awkward as time passed. Because his prominence was a huge part of the controversy, despite being a superfan and not affiliated with the team. Critics would say that absolutely nothing he did was respectful or “representative”, and that you saying so shows you still don’t understand the issue from their perspective.

Anyways, my point was that prior to needing to know about it to win sports bar and social media debates with name-skeptics, the vast majority of Washington fans had never heard the name “Wetzel” or anything else, outside of hobby historians who always have a deeper interest in these things. I know because I was active in the discourse when people started really throwing up those facts as a shield in the debates. If that knowledge and reverence was always a part of your fandom, then my comment doesn’t apply to you, for sure. You’d be in the extreme minority.

 

[Primus Porcus]

RIP to Chief Z and we have a deep history with him as a fanbase, but Chief Z is one of the most glaring examples of where real critics of the brand break with the fans who think some niceties towards local tribes would have made it all okay. Snyder’s idiocy and cruelty hastened the brand’s downfall, but none of that was ever going to do it long term. Chief Z is the biggest example I see cited from the groups (including NA groups) on the “our culture is not your costume/mascot” subject. No matter his beloved status with the fanbase or his positive intentions, I’m sorry but a black American wearing a chief headdress and the like is exactly what they’re talking about. If he hadn’t passed when he did (shame that it was), things would have gotten mighty awkward as time passed. Because his prominence was a huge part of the controversy, despite being a superfan and not affiliated with the team. Critics would say that absolutely nothing he did was respectful or “representative”, and that you saying so shows you still don’t understand the issue from their perspective.

Anyways, my point was that prior to needing to know about it to win sports bar and social media debates with name-skeptics, the vast majority of Washington fans had never heard the name “Wetzel” or anything else, outside of hobby historians who always have a deeper interest in these things. I know because I was active in the discourse when people started really throwing up those facts as a shield in the debates. If that knowledge and reverence was always a part of your fandom, then my comment doesn’t apply to you, for sure. You’d be in the extreme minority.

That was my point. I said Chief Z was a better representation than anything Snyder ever endorsed. He did have his critics regarding the representation, and even THAT was more than the guy who owned the team, and was worth a number that included at least eight '0's for the better part of 2 decades while owning the team. There were steps that could have been taken 25 years ago to bridge a gap and get the backing by the very groups that were represented in the logo. It's a depiction of a human race, so aligning with that race to maintain what we all believed to be a positive representation is the about the softest of soft balls ever available. Snyder chose not to do that from very early on, and even if the fanbase you criticize wasn't as knowledgeable of the deepest roots, the owner himself has a level of responsibility to share that.

Again, I have been at a lot of public events surrounding the team, and a LOT of the fans that have been here for the duration of the worst of it, have understood the heritage a lot more than I think you're giving credit for.

 

[Single-Bar Facemask]

TWO DAYS

 

[Chris]

Keim said it best this morning, ‘there are some who are not going to like it no matter what’. Death, taxes, and bitching about uniforms and/or branding…unavoidable.

 

[Commander PK]

Keim said it best this morning, ‘there are some who are not going to like it no matter what’. Death, taxes, and bitching about uniforms and/or branding…unavoidable.

90% or better like the stadium 🤞

I’m feeling good about it. They have precedent and hopefully saw what not to do.