The Sky is not Falling Thread

[skinzplay]

A few takeaways from Keim's post-game wrap-up:

1. The vibe at the beginning of the 2024 season led you to believe something special was gonna happen. You could see it, you could feel it throughout training camp. The vibe during this training camp was ominously different. Something was clearly off.

2. Team needs to get faster and younger, especially on defense. Magee showed why he should be (should long have been) on the field.

3. DQ should've gone for it on 4th down. There was no logical reason not to do so in that situation, and he cannot use JJ-in-at-QB as an excuse. He said you're 4-10, you're at midfield, you simply have to go for that.

4. Will they elevate Sam Hartman or sign someone else, depending on Mariota's status? It was funny, he almost slipped and said Hartman didn't look like he belonged in the NFL, but stopped himself and said he didn't look like he belonged on an active roster. He said it's something the team needs to assess.

5. On the fight & Sirianni going for 2: players didn't seem to have a problem with the latter, just saying that regardless, you still have to stop 'em. He kinda dismissed DQ's idiotic "if that's how they want to roll, it's all good, we'll see them in 2 weeks" nonsense. He basically questioned just what are you gonna prove it in 2 weeks when the Eagles will be playing 2nd and 3rd stringers. On the fight itself, Mikey S. was protecting Will Harris; Quan Martin was protecting Mikey S.

6. DQ needs to come out with a good start next season, and he and his FO need to show they can build a roster the way Howie and those guys have built one in Philly. They don't have to close the gap entirely (not possible in the immediate short-term), but they have to show they know how to get on a sustainable trajectory (i.e. younger, and more impact players).

 

[DWinzit]

^^ I don't think it is funny about Hartman. He really doesn''t belong in the NFL or on this team. Who cares if he is Jaydens buddy. We can't have just a team of Jaydens buddys.

 

[skinzplay]

^^ I don't think it is funny about Hartman. He really doesn''t belong in the NFL or on this team. Who cares if he is Jaydens buddy. We can't have just a team of Jaydens buddys.

Agreed. He can probably shampoo his guts out in a Pantene Pro V commercial. Kid really doesn't have the arm or the overall talent to be anybody's backup. Maybe another team will give him a shot as a 3rd stringer, who knows......

 

[skinsinparadise]

For me, more as an NFL fan than per se a Washington fan, I've naturally been jealous of teams that have franchise QBs. They are in the playoffs 90% of the time. They always have a chance at the big dance. We thought we finally were part of that club. As Todd McShay aptly said this off season, welcome Washington finally to the table with the big boys.

But, naturally when your franchise QB is out all of that is out the window. Then its purely about how great is your roster without that QB. the 2024 magic IMO was mostly about the function of this is what happens when you have elite QB play. It wasn't about Quinn's mantras and Peters FA signings so much. They were along for the ride and were supporting actors but Jayden drove the boat.

Some hyperbole from me to make a point. Jayden was James Bond. Q and moneypenny weren't driving the movie.

So lol so now we are watching a James Bond movie without Bond and wondering what the hell happened to this installment of the movie -- moneypenny and Q without Bond are boring and the movie sucks.

We knew in 2024 that this wasn't a great roster. But they had one of those guys that can overcome that. Not completely. The even bigger boy teams have the franchise QBs and a good roster, too. See the Eagles and Chiefs of 2024.

But can Jayden offset better rosters by his play? Yeah. Can Mariota? Nope. This season the little Jayden played he was often coming back from some type of injury, much of it with no weapons. He played from start to finish in just 3 games. I am good with Jayden. I think he's the real deal. If I was down on Jayden I'd be very concerned about the future. But I am not.

I got an odd position about Peters. I do think he has done more good than bad. I'd give him a B as to the moves he made when I go through them. But I give him a F for basically doubling down on the idea of lets put this all on Jayden Daniels shoulders -- if Jayden did it before he can do it again without many weapons. Look at the Bears in contrast, they were all hands on deck in 2024 -- they already had D. Moore and Kmet. But they draft Odunze. Sign Everett. Sign. K. Allen. Then we go to 2025 they hit it again: Loveland and Burden. And sign ironically Zaccehus. They really really go to town to load up Caleb. Whereas its commendable that Peters built the O line, but he hasn't prioritized weapons for Jayden last year or this year. That has to stop IMO. And I think it will.

Can Jayden (obviously he needs to stay healthy) again overcome teams with better rosters, going forward still? Yes. Is this team finally a big boy team that should be a perennial playoff team as long as their franchise QB is healthy? Yes. But while I am confident this team is back in the playoffs next season. I want to see Peters take building a SB roster more seriously than he has.

I posted this before below from Standig

What did you make of how the Commanders handled their offseason coming after an NFC Championship game appearance?​

​

• “Give them credit for staying focused on rebuilding the roster, but why not be more aggressive with the QB on a rookie deal when you might already be the second-best NFC team? At the very least, they should have filled in some gaps or replaced a few older players. Instead, they have tons of 2026 free agents, meaning in your third year, you're still filling too many holes.”
• “Certainly, the team where a sophomore slump comes to mind.”

 

[Conn]

Excellent post, really well laid out

 

[Bulldog]

The fallacy for the Washington organization was believing that Daniels could continue in any fashion to carry a team with slight elite talent and a large number of over the hill veterans filling both starting and depth roles.

We brought in 30 year olds everywhere when we should have been stocking younger players as UDFAs, robs of other teams practice squads and TRADING the veterans we did have for MORE draft picks, not trading the picks away for additional older players.

We even brought in one of the oldest snappers in the NFL in Ott to play on special teams.

Where are the 'rare gems' Peters was supposed to be famous for?

I don't see the Greenlaws, Warners, Hufangas, Kittles being drafted here as they did in San Francisco.

And then when we DO draft players we leave a number of them on the bench to watch 35 year olds go out there and look like 50% of what they used to be.

There is NO reason Sinnott and Magee did not get on the field more in 2025 during a lost season.

Bobby Wagner is DONE. Zack Ertz at 35 was coming down the final stretch of games in his career.

There was nothing to be gained for the future, or even the present at 3-9, by continuing to trot these guys out there.

It was just more sand out of the hour glass.

 

[skinsinparadise]

The fallacy for the Washington organization was believing that Daniels could continue in any fashion to carry a team with slight elite talent and a large number of over the hill veterans filling both starting and depth roles.

We brought in 30 year olds everywhere when we should have been stocking younger players as UDFAs, robs of other teams practice squads and TRADING the veterans we did have for MORE draft picks, not trading the picks away for additional older players.

We even brought in one of the oldest snappers in the NFL in Ott to play on special teams.

Where are the 'rare gems' Peters was supposed to be famous for?

I don't see the Greenlaws, Warners, Hufangas, Kittles being drafted here as they did in San Francisco.

And then when we DO draft players we leave a number of them on the bench to watch 35 year olds go out there and look like 50% of what they used to be.

There is NO reason Sinnott and Magee did not get on the field more in 2025 during a lost season.

Bobby Wagner is DONE. Zack Ertz at 35 was coming down the final stretch of games in his career.

There was nothing to be gained for the future, or even the present at 3-9, by continuing to trot these guys out there.

It was just more sand out of the hour glass.

As for late round gems, he had some great ones in SF but over a much longer sample size.

Here he's been good on those not great IMO. 5th-7th rounders have like a 90% plus bust rate

late 4th: Lane
7th: Croskey-Merritt
5th: Magee
7th: Jean-Baptise

Not a lot of swings yet in the late rounds but he's done well on them relatively speaking. But yeah he hasn't found superstars, sans Jayden, anywhere in the draft or FA. If you go through the picks and FA and judge it by success rate per round or go throgh FA signings. He's IMO a solid B but I give him a lower grade as to overall vision. But what props him up to me some is I love the emphasis on the O line. It was my biggest beef with Rivera -- the O line.

Feels like he's going for high floor -- low to medium ceiling, And he's doing well playing that game. It's like he's a value investor in the stock market, who picks the Proctor and Gamble type stocks like the best of them. But he's not swinging for volatile yet high performing Ai stocks -- so no risk no reward. And I don't love this shooting for medium. Take some risks.

I get the logic Peters used. It's not crazy. The were one game from the SB. I don't think that was a mirage. So hey let me build Jayden a real O line. and I'll attack the two main weakness of the defense -- run stopping and the secondary. And why shoudn't the team be even better with a better O line, run stopping D line and secondary?

The logic made sense. But IMO it went off the rails for several reasons: injuries, WR was weakened, the secondary moves and the D line moves were wishful thinking versus a serious approach. That's where I think Peters got arrogant. While Jayden was the driver of the 2024 success its not as if Peters moves behind him were failures: Biadaz, Armstrong, Fowler, Ertz, Wagner, Chinn, Ekeler. We can make fun of it now but it worked fine in 2024 so why not in 2025? And ditto why not show that the Peters "midas touch" applies all the time. they don't have to spend a zillion dollars on Josh Sweat. Watch what Jacob Martin does! D. Wise was discarded by the Pats but we will sign him on the cheap and he will solve the run stopping woes.

You guys were impressed with my Zaccheus signing -- hey that wasn't about him that was about my acumen to find dudes like that off the street wait to you got a load of Chris Moore, and Michael Gallup.

I don't think Peters is an arrogant guy from the standpoint of in an evil or disconcerting way but he came off to me like the stereotypical dude who was on a roll and was getting so much hype that it went to his head. In a different way I think it happened to Quinn, too.

Having said that, I like that they are going into this off season humbled. I don't think either are stupid so I believe they will learn their lesson. Will see. Still, I think both aren't the key drivers of this. It's about Jayden IMO. The Bills aren't always in the playoffs IMO because of Beane or McDermot. It's about Josh Allen. The others are along for the ride. I do agree that their supporting roles are important to the success. But I do think its basically about keeping Jayden healthy.

Maybe the easiest way to explain my take is while I didn't like somethings about Peters and Quinn this season -- there is nothing about them that makes me think they will derail the idea of winning with a franchise QB. I think they are good enough to not screw up the ride with Jayden. And oddly this season going off the rails might help that cause.

I don't think Peters and Quinn are so special that they can load up a winning roster and win with a backup QB and mostly Wrs off the street. A season like that can get ugly and it did.

 

[Chris]

I see frequent mentions of the good to great picks that Peters made in SF. Peters wasn’t the GM in SF. He was Lance Newmark there, who I doubt is making the final decisions here. At least I hope he’s not.

Undoubtedly he was involved, but to use a breakfast analogy about bacon and eggs: the chicken is involved, the pig is committed. Peters was highly regarded within the league as the next big thing for a GM position. He is committed now and I’m very interested in seeing how that plays out.

 

[NoCalSkins]

I am ready to part with Joe Whitt. Kingsbury I am more neutral on. I wouldn't mind him returning but I also don't think of him as any kind of next level innovation or master class. I actually look at the entire current coaching staff as acceptable but not crucial to the future of the franchise. Even when Quinn was first hired, my initial thought was he is going to be what we had hoped Rivera would be, which is an established (but not ancient) name that can help the course correction of the franchise but good chance 2-3 seasons into their tenure they will hit that proverbial wall that requires a different head coach to get them over.

 

[Faithful Fan]

For me, more as an NFL fan than per se a Washington fan, I've naturally been jealous of teams that have franchise QBs. They are in the playoffs 90% of the time. They always have a chance at the big dance. We thought we finally were part of that club. As Todd McShay aptly said this off season, welcome Washington finally to the table with the big boys.

But, naturally when your franchise QB is out all of that is out the window. Then its purely about how great is your roster without that QB. the 2024 magic IMO was mostly about the function of this is what happens when you have elite QB play. It wasn't about Quinn's mantras and Peters FA signings so much. They were along for the ride and were supporting actors but Jayden drove the boat.

Some hyperbole from me to make a point. Jayden was James Bond. Q and moneypenny weren't driving the movie.

So lol so now we are watching a James Bond movie without Bond and wondering what the hell happened to this installment of the movie -- moneypenny and Q without Bond are boring and the movie sucks.

We knew in 2024 that this wasn't a great roster. But they had one of those guys that can overcome that. Not completely. The even bigger boy teams have the franchise QBs and a good roster, too. See the Eagles and Chiefs of 2024.

But can Jayden offset better rosters by his play? Yeah. Can Mariota? Nope. This season the little Jayden played he was often coming back from some type of injury, much of it with no weapons. He played from start to finish in just 3 games. I am good with Jayden. I think he's the real deal. If I was down on Jayden I'd be very concerned about the future. But I am not.

I got an odd position about Peters. I do think he has done more good than bad. I'd give him a B as to the moves he made when I go through them. But I give him a F for basically doubling down on the idea of lets put this all on Jayden Daniels shoulders -- if Jayden did it before he can do it again without many weapons. Look at the Bears in contrast, they were all hands on deck in 2024 -- they already had D. Moore and Kmet. But they draft Odunze. Sign Everett. Sign. K. Allen. Then we go to 2025 they hit it again: Loveland and Burden. And sign ironically Zaccehus. They really really go to town to load up Caleb. Whereas its commendable that Peters built the O line, but he hasn't prioritized weapons for Jayden last year or this year. That has to stop IMO. And I think it will.

Can Jayden (obviously he needs to stay healthy) again overcome teams with better rosters, going forward still? Yes. Is this team finally a big boy team that should be a perennial playoff team as long as their franchise QB is healthy? Yes. But while I am confident this team is back in the playoffs next season. I want to see Peters take building a SB roster more seriously than he has.

I posted this before below from Standig

What did you make of how the Commanders handled their offseason coming after an NFC Championship game appearance?​

​

• “Give them credit for staying focused on rebuilding the roster, but why not be more aggressive with the QB on a rookie deal when you might already be the second-best NFC team? At the very least, they should have filled in some gaps or replaced a few older players. Instead, they have tons of 2026 free agents, meaning in your third year, you're still filling too many holes.”
• “Certainly, the team where a sophomore slump comes to mind.”

The problem with this narrative is the team also looks awful when Jayden plays. His 2-5 record as a starter is barely better than Mariota’s 2-6.

And it’s not like Jayden is blameless in those losses. His most memorable play this season was fumbling away the game against Chicago which was the beginning of our downward spiral, and that is not the only time he has put the ball on the turf this year. He was also at the helm for two of our ugliest losses: the embarrassing 31-0 loss to Minnesota when he was 9-20 for 78 yards and an interception, and the demoralizing 44-22 beat down by Dallas when he was 12-22 for 150 yards and lost a fumble. Looking at his stats, he has badly regressed by every metric. He has always taken way too many sacks, but now his completion percentage has dropped from 70% to 60%.

The biggest concern about Jayden is still his durability and longevity, but I think there are concerns about his play too, especially the sacks and fumbles, but also decision making and accuracy. I know there are a lot of Jayden fans who want to blame anybody but him for our woes, but we have lost as a team, and he has played his part in it.

 

[Conn]

I see frequent mentions of the good to great picks that Peters made in SF. Peters wasn’t the GM in SF. He was Lance Newmark there, who I doubt is making the final decisions here. At least I hope he’s not.

Undoubtedly he was involved, but to use a breakfast analogy about bacon and eggs: the chicken is involved, the pig is committed. Peters was highly regarded within the league as the next big thing for a GM position. He is committed now and I’m very interested in seeing how that plays out.

Yep, I said this a lot around the time we hired him. Blue chip candidate, pedigreed guy who was the hottest name in the league for a couple years before we hired him. Exact type of up-and-coming personnel man we always begged to give final say to. Great hire. But that’s the extent of what we know, outside of his general rep around the league.

Zero real track record that we’re privy to. Didn’t make the decisions or the picks, we don’t know who any of his pet project players are (though there’s probably some articles out there that SF fans are aware of that reveal some, like how we knew Crowder was a Scott guy and Iannidas was a Jay guy). He came in with a completely clean slate in terms of being The Guy. That’s exciting, but it’s also scary. And people talk about him like he has a track record outside of his league rep. He doesn’t.

So we hope he’s a stud and lives up to the hype.

But the cool thing is that now that we have a functional operational structure, if he actually sucks or just gets unlucky and fails for an extended period of time and gets fired…we’ll hire the next AP and hope he’s better. We don’t need AP to be the savior to circumvent a trash organization, we just need him to be good at his job. And if he’s not, we’ll cross that bridge and look for the next hot GM candidate. Pretty cool feeling to hold onto as we evaluate AP over the years and gain an increased sample size, we don’t live and die with him as a franchise like it felt we did with past (questionably empowered) decision makers.

Obviously we all hope AP knocks it out of the park and grows into the role, and becomes what everyone wants him to be. That’s the quickest path to being a great team.

But yeah, we started by having no idea what AP really is, and we’re still finding out. Fun process when you aren’t used to being an actual professional franchise, in my view.

 

[Bulldog]

One of the biggest problems in Washington is how the team handles free agency and trades.

We went out and acquired Lattimore who had a questionable ending in New Orleans and was looked at as a 'me' player by the team, not a leader.

Then we sign Javon Kinlaw who comes in and garners a hefty salary for 0 sacks but does go 2-0 in his professional prizefighting debut.

Kinlaw is another player like Lattimore that is only about himself, he has no leadership skills or maturity on the field.

It's hard for an organization to go out and draft players and develop them when for every Bobby Wagner you keep around to build 'chemistry' and provide 'leadership' you then go out and find more Daron Payne types, high on themselves but producing mixed results at best on the field and only coming alive when someone mentions the almighty dollar.

This is one of the reasons the team to date has not developed an identity post-Snyder.

We seemed on the way to at least developing a solid work ethic last year but one would have to wonder how we can be paying a top 5 defensive tackle unit in terms of dollars for ONE sack between Kinlaw and Daron Payne.

I was hoping we were going to jettison Payne after 2025 and Lattimore as well.

But even if that happens we now have players like Kinlaw that appear to be cut from the same cloth.

 

[Conn]

Kinlaw has been good all year. Not great, but his salary isn’t great either. The reaction to his contract the day it was signed was so silly. And it was magnified by the fact that we signed no one that anyone here wanted. He’s making above average DL money, and playing like it (with some games where he’s drawing a bunch of attention and outplaying it, and some where he’s average). Nothing wrong with that. He’s not making elite money or playing poorly. On a terrible defense, Kinlaw has been one of the only consistent players, and he’s…pretty good, at pretty good money. The real issue is that we don’t have EDGE talent to take advantage of the attention being paid to Kinlaw, and Payne is pretty average as well (although Martin is doing his best).

Acting like he’s some selfish problem player because he got tossed yesterday after the entire roster lost their composure and went to bat for each other (starting with the DB’s btw and then the big men coming to step in, it looked like to me). Silly attempt at twisting an event to a narrative you want to push. Stick to the actual poor signings and draft picks, we don’t need to reach, there have been plenty of them. Kinlaw is fine (and has actually been surprisingly durable and consistent in effort in this nightmare season).

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

I hear you. Your point seems to be he's not the worst but a bottom rung coordinator. And the league talking about him as a HC candidate because of his playcalling are fools. And its so obvious that anyone should see it.

Do you hear me? It doesn't really sound like it.

I am saying that there are obvious playcalling issues.

I am also saying that Kliff and DQ have had opposing viewpoints expressed within the same week of pressers, now multiple times, both this year and last year.

So - guess what - it's not really just a fan's opinion. These are readily observable issues, unless you just ignore them for some reason. Not sure why Kliff gets his obvious potential issues ignored.

I'm not super big at painting myself in a corner with my words - so I generally go through a fair amount of effort to characterize my position. So, no, I don't think I ever said he's a "bottom rung coordinator" or really implied it. Having "playcalling issues" - to me at least - is hardly that. Kliff designs really good passing plays in general. Does he make sure JD is coached well? I thought last year, "maybe (with small doubts)." The reason I wasn't sure is because of the high scramble numbers. After this year, I still say "maybe" although with larger doubts. I don't see the mental development in JD game-to-game or year-to-year, and to me, that is a major warning sign in a franchise QB with good work ethic and "coach ability."

Talking about the "opening drive" as a micro-stat also misses important context: everyone who follows football a lot knows those first 15 plays are often scripted. That's important - those plays are usually extremely thought out. It would be interesting to see who the most successful teams are at opening drives. Who knows, maybe it's relatively meaningless (because as usual with football, there are mountains of reasons we can come up with for/against a position). What I would guess is that Kliff is NOT one who scripts his first 15.

After all of the years of Ron with Scott, and then Ron with EB - and hearing pressers that went against each other in exactly the same way... I hoped we had an HC who would hire an OC where that wouldn't happen. It's not a great sign if your HC's philosophical belief doesn't match his OC. We all know it happens in a variety of ways - heck, don't we all remember Al Saunders and Joe Gibbs? Of course, that may have been more pained behind closed doors since both were on the offensive side. Anyway, point is, it happens - and it generally isn't a great sign of success I think.

This is a discussion board so people can have different opinions; I think they're intelligent as long as they're backed up a bit, but at the end of the day, unless you see Kliff working with JD (or not), or you see what is happening frequently in-person, it's a lot of conjecture. Again, it's fun, and to me it's interesting as a fan. I'm under no illusions of thinking me reading the tea leaves in the way as I said above makes it 100% true (especially with this year of injury!), but I hardly think this is some kind of extreme position to say "he has playcalling issues" especially when DQ himself has agreed in an easily observable way.

By the way, a lot of your post is quite a bit of "results" - and not critiquing "process" - which is the kind of thing that leads to 5-year cycles instead of 1-3 year cycles. Yes, I said "1 year cycle" - because that does happen. There are OCs who get fired after 1 year and the sky doesn't fall. Kliff should NEVER have been fired after 1 year, and he probably shouldn't be fired after 2 years either for all of your reasons (observables matter from a PR standpoint at a minimum). I think if I were DQ or AP, I would probably look at bringing in a really good QB coach though. Not sure who replaced Pritchard. -> Well I assume it's Blough considering he is listed as "Assistant QB Coach" and he is widely considered an up-and-comer.

 

[method man]

One of the biggest problems in Washington is how the team handles free agency and trades.

We went out and acquired Lattimore who had a questionable ending in New Orleans and was looked at as a 'me' player by the team, not a leader.

Then we sign Javon Kinlaw who comes in and garners a hefty salary for 0 sacks but does go 2-0 in his professional prizefighting debut.

Kinlaw is another player like Lattimore that is only about himself, he has no leadership skills or maturity on the field.

It's hard for an organization to go out and draft players and develop them when for every Bobby Wagner you keep around to build 'chemistry' and provide 'leadership' you then go out and find more Daron Payne types, high on themselves but producing mixed results at best on the field and only coming alive when someone mentions the almighty dollar.

This is one of the reasons the team to date has not developed an identity post-Snyder.

We seemed on the way to at least developing a solid work ethic last year but one would have to wonder how we can be paying a top 5 defensive tackle unit in terms of dollars for ONE sack between Kinlaw and Daron Payne.

I was hoping we were going to jettison Payne after 2025 and Lattimore as well.

But even if that happens we now have players like Kinlaw that appear to be cut from the same cloth.

The younger Saints DBs loved Lattimore and saw him as a leader

 

[Chris]

Lattimore may indeed be viewed by teammates as a ‘leader’ but we have no discernible way of knowing for sure. Viewing his outward personality projection/demeanor, I have never once had the thought that he was.

 

[skinsinparadise]

The problem with this narrative is the team also looks awful when Jayden plays. His 2-5 record as a starter is barely better than Mariota’s 2-6.

And it’s not like Jayden is blameless in those losses. His most memorable play this season was fumbling away the game against Chicago which was the beginning of our downward spiral, and that is not the only time he has put the ball on the turf this year. He was also at the helm for two of our ugliest losses: the embarrassing 31-0 loss to Minnesota when he was 9-20 for 78 yards and an interception, and the demoralizing 44-22 beat down by Dallas when he was 12-22 for 150 yards and lost a fumble. Looking at his stats, he has badly regressed by every metric. He has always taken way too many sacks, but now his completion percentage has dropped from 70% to 60%.

The biggest concern about Jayden is still his durability and longevity, but I think there are concerns about his play too, especially the sacks and fumbles, but also decision making and accuracy. I know there are a lot of Jayden fans who want to blame anybody but him for our woes, but we have lost as a team, and he has played his part in it.

Jayden has played 3 games this season from start to finish. He's played well in 2 of those three games. In the first part of the season with Allegretti at RG, Coleman at LG and a struggiling rookie RT -- you had both a crap O line with no weapons to throw to.

I got no concerns about Jayden's play. But yes if I felt like you do where there are concerns about his play -- his decision making and accuracy as you put it-- I'd not only have concerns aboutthe future, I'd think the future likely sucks or at best is in major peril. But I got zero concerns about Jayden's accuracy and decision making. I think he's elite at both. It doesn't bother me that he tucked and ran when Chris Moore wasn't open or held the ball against Seattle when his receivers weren't running the right routes. I put zero of that on him.

I do have concerns about durability. My hope is he was healthy in his college career and none of the injuries this year are long term types.

 

[skinsinparadise]

I know there is worse than Kingsbury but ignoring his obvious playcalling issues? A lot of you guys are putting your heads in the sand here. Let's acknowledge his playcalling issues, they seem too obvious to ignore at this point. I know a few of us are saying this, but I don't see how it's not nearly 100% agreement by now.

By I hear you is you making the point that its so obvious that those who don't agree have their head in the sand, and even though a few like yourself are saying it, you don't see why 100% of the people here don't agree with you. The way that comment came off to me is your criticisms of Kliff as a playcaller are bordeline fact based on the rationale you provided, so how can anyone disagree?

And the comment that there are worse than Kingsbury. That comment didn't come off to me that you think he's one of the top tier guys especially in the context of all your criticisms of him. It came off to me that he's among the bottom tier guys but not the bottom. If I go about how much I don't like Quan Martin's play but heck he's not the worst safety in the league -- my point at least to me would come off like he's among the bottom safeties but there are worse than him.

So you are saying I don't hear you, and don't have a read on your thoughts. OK. I trust of course you know your thoughts better than I know your thoughts. But my interpretation of your thoughts aren't in malice. If I made the same points you did in the way you made them, that's what the emotions would be for me behind those thoughts if I expressed them the same way. So I responded accordingly. You are saying I am reading you wrong, sorry about that, just trying to talk football, and on that front in short I am not down on Kliff.

 

[Chris]

My global frustration is that a lot of fans offer their ‘feelings’ as facts. Instead of prefacing their thoughts as ‘I think’, ‘ in my opinion’ etc they plow ahead with sharing those feelings as facts without evidence. Evidence that is not remotely available to them.

Every coach that is having a successful season is not a great coach in and of itself. Every coach that is having an unsuccessful season is not stupid, a moron, or an idiot.

 

[skinsinparadise]

By the way, a lot of your post is quite a bit of "results" - and not critiquing "process" - which is the kind of thing that leads to 5-year cycles instead of 1-3 year cycles. Yes, I said "1 year cycle" - because that does happen. There are OCs who get fired after 1 year and the sky doesn't fall. Kliff should NEVER have been fired after 1 year, and he probably shouldn't be fired after 2 years either for all of your reasons (observables matter from a PR standpoint at a minimum). I think if I were DQ or AP, I would probably look at bringing in a really good QB coach though. Not sure who replaced Pritchard. -> Well I assume it's Blough considering he is listed as "Assistant QB Coach" and he is widely considered an up-and-comer.

As far as results versus process. That's how I do it. Process to me is variable and never smooth. Context matters. No one does anything in a straight curve perfectly right so picking the highs and lows along the ride doesn't move my opinion. It's the whole ride to me. Quinn not endorsing every game plan when it doesn't work and saying yeah we should have run more or whatever to me is run of the mill. It's common. If he was doing it every game, that would get my attention. If insiders like Keim were saying there is tension behind the scenes ala what happened with Bieniemy that would get my attention, too. But none of that yet is going on. So to me its a nothing burger.

Also once anyone develops a macro take, then the ride whatever it is can be seen more positive or negative depending on your initial perspective. For example, I didn't give Whitt the benefit of the doubt once I decided I didn't dig his playcalling. But if I did like his playcalling I would overlook a bad day.

While I am a macro versus micro guy when it comes to success. To play along with the micro, you criticize him for example for opening drive points. I come back with them being third in red zone offense which is insanely good consideing its a metric that plenty value and he did it with mostly backups. Is the metric you highlight as a critque more important or less important than the one I use, nope. You can use yours to prop your argument. I can use mine to prop mine. You say you put a "fair amount of effort to characterize your poisition. So do I.

And I put a lot of thought into my positions. I subscribe to everything, I listen to everything I can. I'll rewatch many games with all 22, and post clips on different threads. I go to training camp some almost every year. This doesn't mean I am right about everything of course. But I put plenty of thought into every position I have. I don't have my head in the sand about anything. I don't think anyone here does. We are all spending lol sometimes hours discussing football, we love this stuff. We don't always agree but I don't see much head in the sand stuff going on.

And I am far from just automatically in the tank for anyone. I was ripping joe Whitt before it became cool. I was ripping some this summer as to camp and the vibes I felt about this team coming into the season. I was a loud critic back in the day for Scott Turner and a slew of the D coordinators, and Ron. On and on.

So - guess what - it's not really just a fan's opinion. These are readily observable issues, unless you just ignore them for some reason. Not sure why Kliff gets his obvious potential issues ignored.

...Talking about the "opening drive" as a micro-stat also misses important context: everyone who follows football a lot knows those first 15 plays are often scripted. That's important - those plays are usually extremely thought out. It would be interesting to see who the most successful teams are at opening drives. Who knows, maybe it's relatively meaningless (because as usual with football, there are mountains of reasons we can come up with for/against a position). What I would guess is that Kliff is NOT one who scripts his first 15.

It actually IMO is just a "fans opinion". Just is as my take is just a fan's opinion. The comment everyone who follows football a lot knows that the first 15 plays are often scripts -- and then I guess Kliff doesn't script them.

I can respond with strong statements as to the micro stuff like you do here with stuff like hey man, every Friday they practice red zone offense, often exclusively. I actually watched two of those red zone practices at their facility. It's a big deal. It's well rehearsed. Any fan who follows football "a lot"would know that red zone offense is a very important metric. lol, scoring 7 versus 3, can matter as to victories.

But it doesn't matter you have your strong opinion. I have mine. My issue isn't that you disagree. It's boring if we all agreed. My issue is the lines about how can you not see things the way you do? My point is its pretty easy on this point to not see it the way you do. Doesn't mean I am right or you are wrong. It's just that you have a certain fan's opinion, I got mine. Ironically just now as I was walking my dog I listened to Bram's podcast where he was trashing the defense some and then he goes the dude who earned his money this year is Kliff.

I am not on an island on the Kliff point, there are other fans, people who cover the team who agree with me. And there are definitely some who agree with you. It's not a binary call. And don't get me wrong, I don't love everything this year about Kliff. But I simply like more of it than dislike. And overall considering context I think the offense was fine.