2025 Washington Commanders- All Things Defense

[skinsinparadise]

If Forbes keeps emerging, I notice some put that on Peters. I put it 100% on Whitt. The whole fun idea with Whitt is he was supposedly a secondary whisper. He was supposed to make these guys better. They all really got worse under him. And Forbes and St. Juste are playing better elsewhere after taking a step back the season before. they talk ball is life but they didn't match the number of picks that Del Rio's abysmal defense had in his last year.

How is Peters to know in that first season not to trust Whitt? But bottom line especially through the lense of the secondary, its been a disaster.

A. They throw their hands up on a first round pick after he played even worse than his rookie season. And let him go and grow under a better coaching staff in LA.

B. St. Juste was granted hit and miss previously as a player but was arguably much worse under Whitt. Now according to PFF at least he's the 7th best coverage CB in the league. Some say well its part-time. OK I'd take a #3 CB having a good season. At a minimum he looks better.

C. They trade picks to give Whitt supposedly a stud shut down corner. Lattimore was a disaster. Some film junkie NFL type who was on Sheehan said he was playing well early that same season in NO and was surprised about how he fell this far this fast. Lattimore hinted early in the season that opponents were exploting their predictable scheme. Most turned on Lattimore versus Whitt. But would it really be that shocking to see Lattimore rebound elsewhere?

D. Quan Martin by their own hopes was supposed to emerge as one of the better safeties in the league. Instead this season he might be the worst. Does coaching have nothing to do with it? I have no idea but I'd at least consider it.

E. Saintristil's regression. And the instigram leak if I recall from his fiance-wife? that he doesn't like the scheme. According to Suter who does the film review for Sheehan, Sainristil is a zone corner, can't play man, yet they play him man plenty. So Quinn moves him to play some outside, zone coverage and he has one of his better games sans the muffed punt.

F. Look at all the resources they've added to the secondary. Traded three picks for Lattimore. Used a 2nd round pick on Amos. 2nd round pick for Sainristil. Signed a safety. It's not like it was a neglected position. Yet they were comically bad.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Be interesting to watch all that happened this month, including with Whitt.

 

[Primus Porcus]

YES skinsinparadise !!!!

This is the kind of thing that makes me look at other areas and ask myself 'do we really know?' Can we really evaluate guys if they all seem to 'fail' the same way. Why are guys seemingly running open no matter who is in 'coverage?' At some point the understanding is that the schematic ask is creating the problem and not the player.

There is a reason that some teams / coordinators always seem to have the premium talent, while others seem to never have it. It's because the talent gap between the best guy and the 100th guy isn't as big as people want to realize. Every player in the NFL is in the top 1% of athletes in the world. There are obvious things that set some players apart from others, but at the end of the day if a guy is coached to be out of position, lose leverage, or are essentially set up to fail, then the player on the field will almost always fail.

There are clear instances that some players are beyond success like Albert Haynesworth, but there is a large data point that the problem is not always just the players ability. Look at how many Kickers are still in the NFL right now, while we can't seem to find one. Graham Gano, Dustin Hopkins, Joey Slye, Riley Patterson, Brandon McManus (a little different circustances)... all still currently kicking, yet they made their way through here... less than favorably.

 

[skinsinparadise]

YES skinsinparadise !!!!

This is the kind of thing that makes me look at other areas and ask myself 'do we really know?' Can we really evaluate guys if they all seem to 'fail' the same way. Why are guys seemingly running open no matter who is in 'coverage?' At some point the understanding is that the schematic ask is creating the problem and not the player.

There is a reason that some teams / coordinators always seem to have the premium talent, while others seem to never have it. It's because the talent gap between the best guy and the 100th guy isn't as big as people want to realize. Every player in the NFL is in the top 1% of athletes in the world. There are obvious things that set some players apart from others, but at the end of the day if a guy is coached to be out of position, lose leverage, or are essentially set up to fail, then the player on the field will almost always fail.

There are clear instances that some players are beyond success like Albert Haynesworth, but there is a large data point that the problem is not always just the players ability. Look at how many Kickers are still in the NFL right now, while we can't seem to find one. Graham Gano, Dustin Hopkins, Joey Slye, Riley Patterson, Brandon McManus (a little different circustances)... all still currently kicking, yet they made their way through here... less than favorably.

Agree. Especially when the evidence keeps piling up on the same subject. How many data points do we need to question whether the defensive coordinator/secondary coach are a large part of the problem? Players doing worse than before. Players leaving and doing better. Two prominent players in the secondary leaking in a way that they don't love this scheme. Dak Prescott suggesting he knew what this unit would do. The defense setting historic records for ineptitude. I get they have injuries but it was bad before the injuries and it shouldn't be IMO historically bad now.

I've mentioned before it kills me when some of Whitt's defenders (and look he's not the only bad coach we've had here, he's just the most recent one) go on and on about how if the players look confused its on the players not the coaches. Say what? It's the coaches job to prepare the team, that's what practice is about. You beat it to death via repetition as to who does what until they get it. If players are that level confused that's primarily on the coaches. It would be one thing if its the same player every time, then maybe heck that dude is perhaps lazy and not so swift. But when everybody in the secondary have these lapses? When veteran hall of famers like Bobby Wagner are unsure whether its them or the nickle safety who is supposed to cover the TE on certain plays and it happens again and again. Am I supposed to believe one of the smarter players in the NFL, just became dumb this season?

Just getting a little dose of how practice was different this week under Quinn included he would test coverages to match to different offensive formations and if after teaching it they got it right 10 times in a row, he'd keep it, if it failed in practice he'd throw it out. You can actually see adjustments happen during the game including Quan being benched for Savage for a good chunk of the game. After looking like a seive in that first drive, they buckled down. You can see Quinn talking nonstop in his mic to Wagner during the game. Watching Whit over a season in half, he didn't look like he talked a heck of a lot when the camera flashed to him. Also, the defense played with some fire, that reminded me some of the Gregg Williams years, Quinn was animated and fired up and the defense in turn looked fired up.

They've had some bad defenses here and some bad coordinators. Haslett, Joe Berry, Manusky -- some would argue Del Rio, too. Some in the local media, and some within the fanbase always had a ready excuse for all of them. It's hey its not them its the talent. Load them up with talent and watch them shine. It felt like nonsense to me at the time, the excuses for each of those coordinators. It's not that i don't think talent matters. Of course it does. But I didn't think the defense should have been as bad as it looked. And none of those dudes have shined elsewhere.

Not that per se you need to coach with fire to be a good coordinator. But for defense specifically, there is some emotion to that unit -- arguably more so than the offensive unit. Playing with urgency, attitude and hitting hard. Quinn not only has a rep for being a good coordinator but he embodies all those emotions. You do have some low key personalities who are good D coordinators see Belichick, Fangio, etc. But I do like to see some emotion in a defensive coordinator.

But it feels like some in the local media adopt sort of hey we got cooler heads than those emotional fans who like to blame the coordinator. It's so simple for fans to just lay this or that on the coordinator, etc. But heck I think its often the reverse. It's some in the local media being protective of their standing, etc. they interview these guys and heck even picking on a coordinator also in a way attacks the head coach, etc. When i listen to dudes who i like ala Logan Paulsen explain how Spags defense is so good because of how well he coaches up the unit to be gap sound -- but at the same time doesn't reverse that same point where he puts it on coaches when he refers to this team's unit struggiling with gap discipline.

OK so somehow:

A. Gap discipline is about good coaching
B. Bad gap discipline is on the players it has nothing to do with coaching.

It just doesn't add up. And IMO its not the fans who are high strung and too emotional when it comes to bad coordinators typically. IMO its more about some in the local media being protective of these coaches. And look I get it for someone like Logan where he's a nice guy and works for the team. And I love listening to his analysis so am good with him. But I take him and some others who I generally like with a grain of salt when they defend the coordinators of poorly run units.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Agree. Especially when the evidence keeps piling up on the same subject. How many data points do we need to question whether the defensive coordinator/secondary coach are a large part of the problem? Players doing worse than before. Players leaving and doing better. Two prominent players in the secondary leaking in a way that they don't love this scheme. Dak Prescott suggesting he knew what this unit would do. The defense setting historic records for ineptitude. I get they have injuries but it was bad before the injuries and it shouldn't be IMO historically bad now.

I've mentioned before it kills me when some of Whitt's defenders (and look he's not the only bad coach we've had here, he's just the most recent one) go on and on about how if the players look confused its on the players not the coaches. Say what? It's the coaches job to prepare the team, that's what practice is about. You beat it to death via repetition as to who does what until they get it. If players are that level confused that's primarily on the coaches. It would be one thing if its the same player every time, then maybe heck that dude is perhaps lazy and not so swift. But when everybody in the secondary have these lapses? When veteran hall of famers like Bobby Wagner are unsure whether its them or the nickle safety who is supposed to cover the TE on certain plays and it happens again and again. Am I supposed to believe one of the smarter players in the NFL, just became dumb this season?

Just getting a little dose of how practice was different this week under Quinn included he would test coverages to match to different offensive formations and if after teaching it they got it right 10 times in a row, he'd keep it, if it failed in practice he'd throw it out. You can actually see adjustments happen during the game including Quan being benched for Savage for a good chunk of the game. After looking like a seive in that first drive, they buckled down. You can see Quinn talking nonstop in his mic to Wagner during the game. Watching Whit over a season in half, he didn't look like he talked a heck of a lot when the camera flashed to him. Also, the defense played with some fire, that reminded me some of the Gregg Williams years, Quinn was animated and fired up and the defense in turn looked fired up.

They've had some bad defenses here and some bad coordinators. Haslett, Joe Berry, Manusky -- some would argue Del Rio, too. Some in the local media, and some within the fanbase always had a ready excuse for all of them. It's hey its not them its the talent. Load them up with talent and watch them shine. It felt like nonsense to me at the time, the excuses for each of those coordinators. It's not that i don't think talent matters. Of course it does. But I didn't think the defense should have been as bad as it looked. And none of those dudes have shined elsewhere.

Not that per se you need to coach with fire to be a good coordinator. But for defense specifically, there is some emotion to that unit -- arguably more so than the offensive unit. Playing with urgency, attititude and hitting hard. Quinn not only has a rep for being a good coordinator but he embodies all those emotions. You do have some low key personalities who are good D coordinators see Belichick, Fangio, etc. But I do like to see some emotion in a defensive coordinator.

But it feels like some in the local media adopt sort of hey we got cooler heads than those emotional fans who like to blame the coordinator. It's so simple for fans to just lay this or that on the coordinator, etc. But heck I think its often the reverse. It's some in the local media being protective of their standing, etc. they interview these guys and heck even picking on a coordinator also in a way attacks the head coach, etc. When i listen to dudes who i like ala Logan Paulsen explain how Spags defense is so good because of how well he coaches up the unit to be gap sound -- but at the same time doesn't reverse that same point where he puts it on coaches when he refers to this team's unit struggiling with gap discipline.

OK so somehow:

A. Gap discipline is about good coaching
B. Bad gap discipline is on the players it has nothing to do with coaching.

It just doesn't add up. And IMO its not the fans who are high strung and too emotional when it comes to bad coordinators typically. IMO its more about some in the local media being protective of these coaches. And look I get it for someone like Logan where he's a nice guy and works for the team. And I love listening to his analysis so am good with him. But I take him and some others who I generally like with a grain of salt when they defend the coordinators of poorly run units.

In my opinion a coach should never be stating, or insinuating, that a player is out of position because of the player... ever. As a coach, you're not allowed to 'blame' the talent because you should be coaching to your talent level 100% of the time, not attempting to push talent to the max in order to execute your plan. If I know a guy can't do something consistently, i'm not going to ask him to do it regularly. If a player is incapable of performing to your needs, you need to check your needs because you can't just teach a guy to take .5 off his 40 time in order to cover the no. 1 WR on the other side.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment regarding Wagner, and to add to that, what the hell happened to Luvu? This guy has the ability to play with his hair on fire and we're asking him to cover TEs in space. There's a level of expectation, but at some level you've got to look at things and ask yourself if you're truly setting guys up to succeed, or if you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[skinsinparadise]

DE: Wise, Armstrong, Baptiste, J. Martin, V. Miller. Looked solid to good on paper. I'll give them that this is the spot that was destroyed by injuries but it sucked with healthy, too.

DT: Payne, Kinlaw, Goldman. Feels at least solid. Payne and Kinlaw are freakish talents so potentially it could be good

CB: many thought this would be the position that would take a big leap. A healthy Lattimore, Sainristil felt like an emerging star. Amos was seen as a steal in the draft. With good depth with Noah I and J. Jones

Safety: Quan was an emerging young player, who Quinn actually highlighted as their breakout star in the offing. they seemed hyped on Harris. Granted he got hurt. As backups, Percy and Savage are fine. On paper it seemed like an average unit.

LB: Luvu, Wagner have holes in their game, but some outfits actually ranked them as the best LB crew in he NFL.

You look at this unit overall. It felt average. Not great. Not awful. Average. Keim mentioned feeling the same, a middle of the pack defense.

When I debated some about Whitt this offseason, some said hey on some stats the unit wasn't that bad. My response was basically -- the team held the ball like crazy so the unit wasn't on the field much so that would inflate their stats, they were at their worst in big moments late in the games, Jayden's heroics were often him responding to the defense giving up TDs later in the game, and many of these 4th quarter collapses happened against scrub backup QBs -- Trey Lance, Rattler, Kupp, etc. this season they will be playing dudes like Mahomes versus Will Levis so lets see if they are up to the task from playing against the easiest schedule in the NFL versus one of the hardest.

Sheehan was one of the only ones I recall last year saying the defense seemed to be underperforming their talent -- not that he thought it was that talented but that it should be better than how they played. I felt the same.

I am making this point not to beat up on Joe Whitt some more. But to make the point that a good defensive coordinator should be able to bring this unit to in the average range without much difficulty -- especially if some of the underperformance of guys like Sainristil and Quan, etc are a function of coaching.

I noticed a bunch of fans are seeing this as borderline hopeless as to fixing this unit like we need 7-8 new starters. I am not sure I agree but even if I did, they can do it. Seattle overhauled their roster in an off season. So did NE. Denver might have the best defense in the league and if I recall 7 out of their 11 starters are FAs.

You don't need to IMO have studs in every spot. Some of these guys likely improve with better coaching. I think 4 players would transform the unit. If all you do, is replace Bobby with a FA LB like Waker or Lloyd. Sign a corner or draft one to replace Lattimore. Add a safety ala Lake. Sign a corner, doesn't have to be a killer one, someone like J. Watson -- and I think you got an average unit assuming they hire a strong D coordinator.

 

[Bulldog]

Amazing that Newton at 290 and not able to build physique due to structural issues with weight bearing on feet was the #36 pick.

I suppose this is why Brett Veatch and Sean McVay passed on him in the draft.

But we knew better than everyone else……🙄

Peters is going to find out that making the contrarian play like Beathard used to do is like walking on the high wire.

No support if you fall.

 

[skinsinparadise]

Ryan Fowler, who used to work for the team was on Sheehan. I wouldn't rate him as a great insider, but not bad. He's more of a draft guy.

He said he's heard Whitt is gone next season. As for defensive coordinators, he thinks Jeff Howard, Seahawks DB coach and Al Harris, Bears DB coach might be candidates for the D coordinator job here.

The irony if its Harris, when Whitt was hired, there was some discussion as to whether it was Whitt being the genius behind the development of the Dallas secondary and all the INTs or was it Harris? Apparently, it was Harris.

 

[Bulldog]

Dallas didn’t exactly object to Whitt leaving with Quinn.

They went out and got another DC instead of retain and promote Whitt.

 

[Riggo44]

what the hell happened to Luvu?

He's been so misused this year. His confidence looked shot and he had NO energy. That guy was all over the field last year

 

[Chris 44]

Makes my blood boil that if the bad defenses are on Witt then we have essentially wasted 2 years on not just blown games but player evaluation and development.

 

[Riggo44]

Amazing that Newton at 290 and not able to build physique due to structural issues with weight bearing on feet was the #36 pick.

Where did you hear this? I know he had surgery on his feet for Jones fractures, but nothing else

 

[skinsinparadise]

Makes my blood boil that if the bad defenses are on Witt then we have essentially wasted 2 years on not just blown games but player evaluation and development.

Yeah digesting it all, it looks bleaker than just being a bad coordinator.

At the same time it gives me hope that they will get more out of Amos, Sainristill going forward.

 

[Primus Porcus]

He's been so misused this year. His confidence looked shot and he had NO energy. That guy was all over the field last year

That was exactly my point

 

[Riggo44]

Yeah digesting it all, it looks bleaker than just being a bad coordinator.

At the same time it gives me hope that they will get more out of Amos, Sainristill going forward.

I had the same hope for Whitt and his staff. I'm sorely disappointed. So maybe we get it right this time. I wonder what assistants get kept too. Tapp and Norton are possibilities; Donatell and Simmons are probably gone

 

[Conn]

 

[skinsinparadise]

I listened to some of that on sheehan's show today. I'll listen to the full segment later today probably.

But I recall Suter didn't think the defense would look much different when he was asked about before this game. And in turn was surprised that it did.

Logan said (I've not listened to the full show yet) he was blown away by the difference.

I noticed on the rewatch how talkative Quinn was in his headset to Wagner. He seemed to be talking nonstop whenever the camera flashed his way. And the enthusiasm on the sideline from him was fun to watch.

 

[Conn]

Even though he’s going to give up play calling again to a new DC hire next year, I hope this experience keeps him more engaged on that side of the ball going forward. His job may depend on it. He was TOO worried about stepping on Whitt’s toes, clearly. Given some of the things Quinn changed immediately in one week were big picture, systemic philosophy things.

 

[SkinsNumberOne]

Even though he’s going to give up play calling again to a new DC hire next year, I hope this experience keeps him more engaged on that side of the ball going forward. His job may depend on it. He was TOO worried about stepping on Whitt’s toes, clearly. Given some of the things Quinn changed immediately in one week were big picture, systemic philosophy things.

I don't know if we should say he was "too worried" - I mean, this is the whole thing with hiring and process.

Process matters, so if your hiring process is good and you get someone who can't do the job, it's OK. I don't know that DQ's way of selecting his coordinators was good. It seems to me he actually disagrees with both of his coordinators philosophically which frankly is a bad way to hire.

So in terms of him not stepping on toes, in large part for a first time DC, I think that makes a lot of sense. The problem is he has to be better in his process, and that is way more alarming than anything.
As HC, how do you figure out your coordinator has a problem? At what point do you nudge? How do you measure improvement or failure to improve?

To my eyes, what we have seen here is pretty bad - because I think AP has made a lot of changes to a defense with the idea that the coordinators and assistants were good - the person who should have been holding his coaches accountable and seeing the problems in 2024 already was DQ, not AP. I don't think Forbes or BSJ are great CBs, but I do think our coaches made them worse than necessary. They had certain tools that were good, and were not utilized properly. I think we see a big step back because if you tend to use players wrong, it doesn't matter who you get. Potentially a big waste of time because of *process* failure.

This looks like a textbook case of why "Process over Results" is important. Yes, the team made the NFCCG. With problems. A good process would have looked at the problems and been ready to help the team improve regardless of results.

 

[DogofWar1]

Was at Universal Studios parks this week, saw this while walking thru Suess world.