Coaching staff thread

Or like Sam Howell, players that were mismanaged from the start.

First, Ron admitted towards the end of the 2022 season that he never really looked at the progress Howell was making as a rookie and was focused on Carson Wentz and Taylor Heinicke, despite the obvious struggles to score points on offense all season long. How could a head coach not keep tabs on ALL of the roster players and their progress over the course of an entire season? How could he be that disinterested?

Then there was the arrival of EB and his own version of Air Coryell. Except he didn't have the experienced quarterback, 3 pro bowl receivers, and great offensive line they had in San Diego :ciao:
 
Player improvement is a very difficult track unless your on staff. The reason is we have run 2 different offenses with 2 very different philosophies. We are about to go onto a 3rd. The simple eye candy results of did he catch the ball, did he hussle, was he aggressive, did he funble, blah, blah. Those aspects will tell the character of the player. Those are very glaring points in a player profile video that I am sure the coaches are watching. One of the key apsects of keeping coaches from the old staff is to have someone who can put some plays in context. In general, you know what their job is but its vital to dive as deep as you can into the individual play so you can determine if this player will fit into your scheme. Many times, you'll hear coaches say "Holy crap, why didn't they run that more....you can't stop this guy when he does that" kinda thing as the tape don't lie about Point of Contact movement. Mind you, I am talking about a specific part of a play not the result. Coaches breakdown the layers of every play and will say things like "if that guy finishes his block, if that WR would of run his route correctly, etc. " that is where your offense grows and adapts to players. However, that only works when the coaching staff is on the same page, not only in scheme but in the understanding of football. Simplicity was our problem with Turners group and EB just didn't have anyone who was on the same page he was working on. All goes back to Rivera not focusing on the parts he needed to ensure success.

I'm rambling a little bit but you get the idea. The players effort will be the first thing that keeps them on the roster or gets them to the next phase on if we should resign them. This is a long process but DQ has put a staff together that has the experience and know how to make great educated decisions on each of our guys. In other words, I trust when this staff goes with their gut on keeping a guy or moving on from him, it will help us get the reults we all want. And fast.
 
Utah said:
Player improvement is a very difficult track unless your on staff.
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I get this and you more than I do, but there are things that can be seen even from the stands.

Has the QBs mechanics improved?
Is the running back practicing better ball security? This is years ago, but I remember Tiki Barber was almost cut from the Giants because he was such a fumble-mess, then after being taught a new way to hold the ball, he almost never fumbled again.
Are the receivers running routes to the correct depth?
Are the defensive backs communicating well and is their ability to see the play with their eyes improving? A rookie who drops coverage because he doesn't understand his zone responsibilities shouldn't be as lost in year four in the system.
 
And are you as a coordinator a self-critic? Or are you someone that is tone deaf to the degree that performances on the field do not result in any adjustments to or modifications of your game plans and player utilization?

You can look at coaches from Joe Gibbs to Dick Vermeil to the modern day Sean McVays and Ben Johnsons to see where schemes were modified to fit the players and the result was a high degree of success for these teams.

Part of EB's issues here IMO were centered around his one track level of experience with Andy Reid. Even though he is 55 years old his experience was almost entirely based in helping to run someone else's system without the important experience of calling the plays and being creative.

So, his tenure in Washington to some degree was like Jim Zorn, where Zorn came to DC with Bill Walsh's original WCO play-sheets he inherited from Mike Holmgren but had no real insights into how to mold scheme to the players he had here.
 
Tomorrow afternoon the other coaches will be made available to the media. Should be interesting. I can’t remember if I heard 3:30 or 4:30 pm.
 
cue the astronaut jokes




 
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Right now, for me personally; I would only be concerned on Whitt with any "friend" hire (in any org). Can you hold him accountable? How well do you work with him with honesty? Some people really struggle with this, and it's totally understandable, but it is not ideal if you are trying to build a real winner (it of course CAN work, if guys actually stay true to what you think they are). At least from his job history, performance that we can measure, his interviews, how he carries himself... there are a lot of pluses. The only other potential concern, which is a real concern but not one we should be worried about in our state - he will DEFINITELY bolt if given an HC opp. He has been clear he wants to be a HC in this league. That is not something this team needs to worry about, it's too GOOD of a problem to have. Let's get THAT problem, then worry. The main thing there is making sure HIS (Whitt's) staff is solid, and then PROMOTE within should be a priority. That encourages people to do their BEST work, it has numerous benefits. It's crazy how many orgs misunderstand this simple concept.

Kingsbury; I am not going to buy into any Kool-Aid. Words only matter so much. So, we'll have to see. I think the biggest concern is I can't even come up with a story that explains the OL coach. It doesn't seem like there is any visible justification to hire someone in that position, especially this soon, who failed so badly. The only thing I can kind of think is that Gates put in a good word for him. I like the idea of listening to players' input, again, a very solid organizational concept there. However, when there are huge red flags on both the player and the coach in question, I would pass on it. I just don't know the thought process there. So I do worry mostly right now about how that strange decision may affect other areas.
 
I think Daboll poached him from the Bills. So, I'm wondering if our o-line coach was hired based on his rep from that time period? But yeah, that is easily the biggest WTF among the coaching hires.
 
burgold said:
I think Daboll poached him from the Bills. So, I'm wondering if our o-line coach was hired based on his rep from that time period? But yeah, that is easily the biggest WTF among the coaching hires.
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You're right, I think that was referenced by someone too - his history with the Bills. He just failed so miserably with the Giants, and the Bills have a very obvious story that works against Johnson. Josh Allen is NOT a prototypical QB, so when an OL "works" with him, you have to have some misgivings. Then, when that same OL coach coaches a miserable failure right after that... you should be hesitant. You are right, it was probably the Bills tenure that got him this job, and that has been alluded, but man oh man do I worry about that. It could work out, but I am so tired of the "hope it works" thing. I just want to see a process that I trust; some guys who don't have obvious flaws. This guy really has me shaking my head on that point.
 
Chris said:
Not what I’d call a ringing endorsement.

www.hogshaven.com

Bobby Johnson is a baffling hire as OL coach

Your best source for quality Washington Commanders news, rumors, analysis, stats and scores from the fan perspective.
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Yes, I saw that one and very similar ones across the media spectrum. I just can't find a good reason or story on why they would choose this path. I have really looked. I want one, just to feel like this was a sane and rational decision.
OK - just looked again and saw a new article popup:

Kingsbury says:
"He has been at a lot of great places. Worked with some great offenses there in Buffalo with Josh Allen and some of the creativity and the run game stuff they were doing and tempo and some different things that I really liked. And then go to the Giants [and in the] very first year make the playoffs with Daniel Jones. From afar, I liked how he handled himself, some of the stuff he did in the run game and then had got rave reviews from people I really trust in the profession, and so did Dan. So, it worked out.”

Reading directly (not between the lines, no need): he basically says that since Johnson was involved in some successful offenses over the past 3 or 4 years, that is one positive they took away. They also took some opinions from trusted sources, and those appear to have been overwhelmingly positive. Finally, they seem to think that there was some success in the run game in particular (which is fair).

I can see what is being said there. As in any market, who or what you bought is one side; the other side is who or what you passed up on. I don't have great knowledge there, but I still just can't imagine this was the pick of the litter. I guess I do feel a bit better after reading those quotes, in a way; the run game was pretty good when they were successful (Giants, Bills). I also think that since this doesn't appear to be a "relationship" hire, it would be easier to hold him accountable. So, those things are all big positives, I guess.
 
burgold said:
I think Daboll poached him from the Bills. So, I'm wondering if our o-line coach was hired based on his rep from that time period? But yeah, that is easily the biggest WTF among the coaching hires.
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I've been listening to a lot of podcasts, media talking heads, and also what Kliff had to say about Bobby Johnson.

I think there are 2 views you can take on this hire:

Reasons to be optimistic:
- He was the OL coach for the Bills, and they had REALLY good pass protection ratings through each of those years. Galdi went through the rankings (I think Run and Pass Block Win Rates advanced stats) but they were really impressive, especially if you contrast them to what we've had.
- He was so good as the OL coach of the Bills, Daboll, also on the Bills, brought Bobby Johnson with him from the Bills to the Giants.
- It's very possible Daboll is a complete disaster and that's led to a lot of the issues with the NYG.
- The first year Bobby Johnson was with the NYG, they did go to the playoffs, and the offense was functional, even with Daniel Jones at QB.
- Jones isn't a great QB, and not great QBs can make an "ok" offensive line look like a "bad" offensive line.
- In 2023, the Giants were as ravaged by injury on the OL as any team I've ever seen. It was like the 2017 Redskins, where Kirk was introducing himself to OL in the pregame locker-room. There's not much anybody can do about that.
- Also in 2023, Jones got hurt, and then the backup got hurt, and the QBs they had just held the ball until SPAT. Not much an OL coach can do about that either.

Reasons to be skeptical:
- The Giants just gave up 6,235 sacks last year and the OL was a complete mess.
- There wasn't a lot of development of OL players while he was there.
- This is the most recent thing we've seen, which wasn't good, and he got fired.

Which way it goes, I'm not entirely sure. I do think one of the reasons this hire is getting SO much scrutiny, our OL last year was horrible and poorly coached. So people were expecting Quinn to bring in the ghost of Joe Bugel to coach the OL or something. When that didn't happen, everybody lost their minds.

I also think there are 2 other coaches on the offensive staff who are going to work with the OL, Anthony Lynn (Run game coordinator) and Brian Johnson (pass game coordinator).

I'm going to lean "optimistic" at the moment until proven otherwise. I get the feeling Daboll has the entire NY Giants organization turned upside down. And if the Mara's hadn't fired 2 previous coaches after 2 years, they would have fired him also.

But we'll see. It could be a disaster.
 
Coaches don’t win without personnel.

Sometimes a scheme will enhance or expose players strengths/weaknesses but no one is going to turn a group of replacement level performers into the Hogs.

Like Washington, New York will be rebuilding its OL around one or two younger guys. Everyone else needs to go.

The bottom line in NY is Barkley made the offense including the OL and Jones look better at times then they are.
 
Bulldog said:
Coaches don’t win without personnel.

Sometimes a scheme will enhance or expose players strengths/weaknesses but no one is going to turn a group of replacement level performers into the Hogs.

Like Washington, New York will be rebuilding its OL around one or two younger guys. Everyone else needs to go.

The bottom line in NY is Barkley made the offense including the OL and Jones look better at times then they are.
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And when the replacement level players all get hurt, and you have lower than replacement level players playing the entire year, there just isn't much you can do about that.

Which is why I am less "raised eyebrow" on the OL hire than others. The line was pretty trash and then it got hurt. Daboll is a maniac. Shrug. Now he's here and he might be a really good coach.
 
Just imagine based on the talent gap in New York how surprised I was that we reached out and offered Nick Gates a multiyear contract in the past offseason.

This guy wasn't even good enough to pass muster up there where they were signing tackling dummies to play the OL.
 
I always imagined a coach was worth about a letter grade. A great coach can scheme or coach up a B player to an A - while an awful coach can scheme down a great player from an A to a C+
 
So - the Giants D was abysmal in 2023. Overall 27th in the league in yds allowed and 26th in pts given up. 19th ranked vs the pass and 29th against the rush.

Does that mean Wink Martindale sucks too?

Asking for a friend?
 
Was it really? I got the sense that the Giants ED was actually good last year. Eesh!
 
Boone said:
So - the Giants D was abysmal in 2023. Overall 27th in the league in yds allowed and 26th in pts given up. 19th ranked vs the pass and 29th against the rush.

Does that mean Wink Martindale sucks too?

Asking for a friend?
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Martindale just sucks slightly less than the dynamic duo of Del Rio & Rivera. 😉
 
Bulldog said:
Just imagine based on the talent gap in New York how surprised I was that we reached out and offered Nick Gates a multiyear contract in the past offseason.

This guy wasn't even good enough to pass muster up there where they were signing tackling dummies to play the OL.
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I raised my eyebrow at the Gates signing, but figured since he was in division, we had a good look at him, and clearly he was better than I would have thought. Boy was I wrong.

The Wylie signing, I thought EB would certainly not bring somebody over who stunk, and boy was I wrong.
 
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