Official Game Thread - Week 13 - vs Dolphins

I hope Josh Harris is watching this 49ers game somewhere and thinking to himself, I want my team to look like that.

Skill, physicality, speed, guys playing with their hair on fire, aggressiveness, balance. What's not to like?
 
I’m sort of glad that this team has looked as flawed as it has the past 3 weeks. Our ownership group and the folks they bring in aren’t going to have any delusions about roster needs.
 

Very appropriate.

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I'm just sitting here hoping the new regime doesn't "Trent Green" Sam Howell.

Hope they see what a lot of us see.
I remember Trent Green....and he was MUCH better than Howell. Green did not make nearly as many bad mistakes as Howell does.

Howell has thrown a pick 6 three weeks in a row and he leads the NFL in sacks and INTs. He is not the future of this franchise.

What I would like to know is why Heinicke could win on this sorry team, but Howell can't....just like Wentz couldn't win last year, either.
 
What I would like to know is why Heinicke could win on this sorry team, but Howell can't....just like Wentz couldn't win last year, either.
I think the answer to your question lies mostly outside the QB. First, our defense was bad last year and it's worse this year. Second, our line was bad last year and it's worse this year. Third, our OC last year played Martyball. Run two downs and throw it. That limited opportunities for sacks and interceptions. EB is a pass first (and nearly a pass only) style of play caller.

It is a concern that Howell is not protecting the ball (I think the screen yesterday is a bad example. I blame that on Wylie not engaging at all. Howell's job is to get the snap and throw. Blame that one on good defense or a team failure in my book.) I also worry (though I haven't seen signs of it) that he will eventually get so battered as to become ruined. We saw that with Patrick Ramsey, Carr on the Raiders, and other nonprotected QBs. There's only so much punishment a body can take before self-preservation kicks in. I also think it's fair to say that Howell is suffering from the learning curve on two levels: His own and That defenses now have tape on what he does well and can scheme against that. If that the latter is the problem, then the QB and his play caller have to step up and adjust to the adjustments. The question is whether Howell and EB have that next gear.

But really, Howell has outperformed expectations most of the season while under ridiculous duress and not getting the support he needs.
 
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I think the answer to your question lies mostly outside the QB. First, our defense was bad last year and it's worse this year. Second, our line was bad last year and it's worse this year. Third, our OC last year played Martyball. Run two downs and throw it. That limited opportunities for sacks and interceptions. EB is a pass first (and nearly a pass only) style of play caller.

It is a concern that Howell is not protecting the ball (I think the screen yesterday is a bad example. I blame that on Wylie not engaging at all. Howell's job is to get the snap and throw. Blame that one on good defense or a team failure in my book.) I also worry though I haven't seen signs of it that he will eventually get so battered as to become ruined. We saw that with Patrick Ramsey, Carr on the Raiders, and other nonprotected QBs. There's only so much punishment a body can take before self-preservation kicks in. I also think it's fair to say that Howell is suffering from the learning curve on two levels: His own and That defenses now have tape on what he does well and can scheme against that. If that the latter is the problem, then the QB and his play caller have to step up and adjust to the adjustments. The question is whether Howell and EB have that next gear.

But really, Howell has outperformed expectations most of the season while under ridiculous duress and not getting the support he needs.

I'm not buying the defense part. People were saying last year that the defense was bad, when Wentz was QB at the beginning of the season. However, Wentz was a big part of the problem -- he couldn't get any first downs and the Commodes defense was constantly on the field. And when the defense is constantly on the field, they are going to give up lots of points.

And Howell has the exact same problem that Wentz had....he takes way too many sacks. And when you take lots of sacks, you kill offensive drives. That has happened in several winnable games this season, especially the three games against the Giants and the Bears.

Wentz record last year: 2 - 5

Heinicke record last year: 5 - 3 - 1

Howell looks like Carson Wentz, Chapter II to me.

And Howell has not outperformed expectations at all...he is probably going to finish the season 4 - 13 or 5 - 12 and lead the NFL in sacks and INTs. Not impressive at all.
 
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You should buy the defense argument. We're giving up an average of 30+ points. That's a lot for any offense to overcome. Only three teams in the entire NFL are averaging over 30 points per game this year.
 
You should buy the defense argument. We're giving up an average of 30+ points. That's a lot for any offense to overcome. Only three teams in the entire NFL are averaging over 30 points per game this year.

The Giants only scored 14 points in the first game. The offense could only score 7 points. That is inexcusable against a 2 - 8 team and Howell deserves a lot of blame for that.

This team only scored 3 points against the Bills, 10 points against the Cowboys, and 15 points yesterday against the Dolphins. You're not going to win with such few points against good teams.

If you compare Wentz's W/L record to Heinicke's W/L record last year, that explains the biggest problem....it starts with the QB. And Howell is too much like Wentz.
 
Not going to relitigate the Heinicke thing yet again ... to me, he is who we thought he was when he left--a pretty good NFL backup.

The difficulty with assessing Sam Howell's play is trying to differentiate how much of his obvious struggles are on him, versus how much can also be attributed to all the deficiencies and dysfunction around him on the sidelines and both sides of the ball.

That's going to be among the highest-priority, most difficult jobs the new regime is going to have to sort out, quickly, in order to make an informed a decision on the QB position going forward.
 
Let me preface this by saying that my eye sees that this team has essentially quit playing since the 29-26 loss to Seattle.

That game really marked the end point of the season as any thoughts of the playoffs or finishing well enough to stave off massive changes on the roster were over.

What you have seen since then is some bad losses against good teams.

In part management had communicated that lack of confidence in the team earlier in the season with the trades of Sweat and Young.

There was no point in investing any real money in a team that was flawed and needed to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So, back to Howell. Do I know he is the answer at quarterback that will lead to Super Bowls in the future? No.

Do I know that he is a starting caliber quarterback who with a good team around him like Purdy has in SF could make a bigger splash than in DC?

I think so.

When I hear the guys on WFAN talk about the record and the interceptions by Howell, these circumstances all go back to the nature of the team.

Younger quarterbacks make mistakes. Whether they are top picks or middle rounders. There is no immunity to being around a bad team.

Washington has the worst defense in the NFL. Yesterday, they gave up 78 and 60 yard touchdowns to Tyreek Hill and the score was 31-7 at halftime.

Critics can tease out the pick six 7 points but the reality is the defense gave up 38 points and again this team was uncompetitive on that side of the ball going into the half.

Miami could have scored more points in the second half but it was apparent the game was over and they merely dotted the 'I's and crossed the 'T's in the fourth quarter, scoring a final TD when Washington's defense simply refused to stop the run all the way down the field.

The way I look at Howell right now is wait and see. Wait and see what a new GM and Coach see in reviews of these games and how he was used, the amount of passing this team did with a bad line and how the scheme did or did not work in a way to make Sam as effective as possible.

I remember Troy Aikman going 0-11 with Dallas, I remember Eli Manning going 2-7 with the Giants in this division as rookies while throwing a host of interceptions.

Both of these players had arm talent and top pedigrees, but both like Sam Howell, were placed on bad teams that had little else at that time to recommend them.

How about Jalen Hurts? He was an OK rookie in 2020. Made plays with his feet and showed a knack for throwing on the run, but he made a lot of mistakes as well.

Jump ahead a couple of years and Howie Roseman assembled perhaps the best overall roster top to bottom in the league and Hurts takes them to the Super Bowl.

Would anyone have anticipated Hurts in a Super Bowl after 2020? A lot of people thought Philly might go into the draft and take a quarterback high in Round 1 in the offseason.

Hurts definitely improved his play through hard work, etc. but the buildout of the wide receiver corps with Devonta Smith and AJ Brown were key factors as was the assembly of a defense that topped the league in sacks and takeaways.

And those takeaways? Boy, do they help pad a quarterbacks stats. Quarterbacks throw a lot more TDs and fewer INTs when they are getting the ball and having to go 20-30 yards for a TD instead of 70-80 consistently.

Short note to Daron Payne: You can go ahead and show you are really a top 5 defensive tackle in the NFL by taking on the double teams and beating it once in awhile like Aaron Donald and Chris Jones do :devilish:
 
Not going to relitigate the Heinicke thing yet again ... to me, he is who we thought he was when he left--a pretty good NFL backup.

The difficulty with assessing Sam Howell's play is trying to differentiate how much of his obvious struggles are on him, versus how much can also be attributed to all the deficiencies and dysfunction around him on the sidelines and both sides of the ball.

That's going to be among the highest-priority, most difficult jobs the new regime is going to have to sort out, quickly, in order to make an informed a decision on the QB position going forward.

You say Heinicke is a "pretty good NFL backup". Yet he did something that neither Wentz nor Howell seemed to be capable of doing, and that is win games.

And the objective of football, obviously, is to win.

And the main reason that Heinicke won games is simple -- he made much better decisions passing the ball, he gets rid of the ball quickly, and he doesn't take nearly as many sacks as Howell or Wentz.
 
I get it, CF. You think Heinicke is better than Howell. I think the jury is still out ... and way too early to tell what Howell could become.
 
Let me preface this by saying that my eye sees that this team has essentially quit playing since the 29-26 loss to Seattle.

That game really marked the end point of the season as any thoughts of the playoffs or finishing well enough to stave off massive changes on the roster were over.

What you have seen since then is some bad losses against good teams.

In part management had communicated that lack of confidence in the team earlier in the season with the trades of Sweat and Young.

There was no point in investing any real money in a team that was flawed and needed to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So, back to Howell. Do I know he is the answer at quarterback that will lead to Super Bowls in the future? No.

Do I know that he is a starting caliber quarterback who with a good team around him like Purdy has in SF could make a bigger splash than in DC?

I think so.

When I hear the guys on WFAN talk about the record and the interceptions by Howell, these circumstances all go back to the nature of the team.

Younger quarterbacks make mistakes. Whether they are top picks or middle rounders. There is no immunity to being around a bad team.

Washington has the worst defense in the NFL. Yesterday, they gave up 78 and 60 yard touchdowns to Tyreek Hill and the score was 31-7 at halftime.

Critics can tease out the pick six 7 points but the reality is the defense gave up 38 points and again this team was uncompetitive on that side of the ball going into the half.

Miami could have scored more points in the second half but it was apparent the game was over and they merely dotted the 'I's and crossed the 'T's in the fourth quarter, scoring a final TD when Washington's defense simply refused to stop the run all the way down the field.

The way I look at Howell right now is wait and see. Wait and see what a new GM and Coach see in reviews of these games and how he was used, the amount of passing this team did with a bad line and how the scheme did or did not work in a way to make Sam as effective as possible.

I remember Troy Aikman going 0-11 with Dallas, I remember Eli Manning going 2-7 with the Giants in this division as rookies while throwing a host of interceptions.

Both of these players had arm talent and top pedigrees, but both like Sam Howell, were placed on bad teams that had little else at that time to recommend them.

How about Jalen Hurts? He was an OK rookie in 2020. Made plays with his feet and showed a knack for throwing on the run, but he made a lot of mistakes as well.

Jump ahead a couple of years and Howie Roseman assembled perhaps the best overall roster top to bottom in the league and Hurts takes them to the Super Bowl.

Would anyone have anticipated Hurts in a Super Bowl after 2020? A lot of people thought Philly might go into the draft and take a quarterback high in Round 1 in the offseason.

Hurts definitely improved his play through hard work, etc. but the buildout of the wide receiver corps with Devonta Smith and AJ Brown were key factors as was the assembly of a defense that topped the league in sacks and takeaways.

And those takeaways? Boy, do they help pad a quarterbacks stats. Quarterbacks throw a lot more TDs and fewer INTs when they are getting the ball and having to go 20-30 yards for a TD instead of 70-80 consistently.

Short note to Daron Payne: You can go ahead and show you are really a top 5 defensive tackle in the NFL by taking on the double teams and beating it once in awhile like Aaron Donald and Chris Jones do :devilish:
Howell had a big sack problem in college...and that sack problem has followed him to the NFL. This a major reason why he was a 5th round draft pick.

Hurts did not have sack problems in college and he does not have sack problems now. And Aikman did not have a sack problem in college, either.

The # of sacks that a QB takes is the biggest indicator of whether or not a QB can succeed at the NFL level. And based on what I've seen, Howell is not going to succeed at the NFL level.

I won't be the least bit surprised if Howell is out of the NFL two years from now. Just like Wentz was out of the NFL for most of this season after his disastrous performances last season.
 
I disagree with you CF.

When starting a rookie or first year quarterback winning is a secondary consideration. Why do I say that?

Because outside of Dan Marino and a few select others rookie starters MAKE MISTAKES, it's almost baked into the DNA of an NFL quarterback.

Again, you can point to Hall of Fame passers that had poor records their first years. No one was worse than Aikman at 0-11.

In one of Joe Montana's first starts the 49ers lost 55-7 to the Cowboys.

What you are doing with a first time starter is seeing what his compete level is, how well he can handle adversity and whether he has the arm to make the throws that are the bread and butter of NFL offenses.

Now, personally I disagree with Eric Bieniemy that the best way to get a young passer off the ground is to have him lead the NFL in attempts and drop backs with a bad pass protecting line.

With all of the big pass plays the 49ers have with Purdy and the Cowboys have with Prescott both of these teams still run the ball quite a bit.

Miami does as well.

If you look at Taylor Heineke here in Washington and the opponents the team faced you will see he threw the ball with far fewer attempts per contest.

In at least one of those two years, Washington also had a top 10 defense by the numbers and created a decent amount of turnovers.

So, Washington was using a ball control offense to limit mistakes and keep the ball away from opposing offenses while keeping games close with its defense going into the fourth quarter.

Bieniemy has Howell in a San Diego Chargers Coryell type offense where running the ball was an afterthought.

Putting that much on a first time starter is a questionable approach, at least in terms of winning games.

I know Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and even an Andy Reid would probably not do that.

I remember Reid limiting drop backs for Donovan McNabb in Philly and Alex Smith in Kansas City.

Most people forget that Reid kept Mahomes on the bench for a year despite being a top 10 pick learning the offense.

And that learning was with purpose as Reid traded Smith after 2017 and had every intention of playing Mahomes in 2018.

Here in Washington, Ron Rivera admitted earlier in the season that in 2022 he was focusing on winning games and who was starting those weeks and really didn't follow Sam Howell's development until the end of the season.

Totally different approach. Reid was able to focus on getting Smith and the Chiefs to 10-6 and the playoffs AND develop Mahomes enough to get him on the field in 2018 and produce in a REVAMPED SCHEME.

That's what makes one a HOF coach and the other a guy that is below .500.
 
I remember Trent Green....and he was MUCH better than Howell. Green did not make nearly as many bad mistakes as Howell does.

Howell has thrown a pick 6 three weeks in a row and he leads the NFL in sacks and INTs. He is not the future of this franchise.

What I would like to know is why Heinicke could win on this sorry team, but Howell can't....just like Wentz couldn't win last year, either.

Trent Green only played 1 full season in DC (and had been bouncing around in the CFL and NFL for 4 years before he got to us - not exactly a comparable situation to Howell). In that one full season, he completed just 55% of his passes, compared to Howell's 66%. His INT rate was 2.2 compared to Howell's 2.8, and his TD rate was 4.5% to Sam's 3.5%. Trent threw for 3441 yds which Howell has already exceeded this year (but of course, it's a very different NFL today).

I don't think you can make the case that Green was 'much better'. He was promising and talented like Howell. I think we should feel pretty good about Howell given his experience level. It's not close to perfect but few young QBs are, and neither are the greats (Pat Mahommes threw a pick 6 last night).
 
You should buy the defense argument. We're giving up an average of 30+ points. That's a lot for any offense to overcome. Only three teams in the entire NFL are averaging over 30 points per game this year.

We are also playing from behind, well behind, in nearly every game. That lends itself to pressing and taking chances you might not take in an even game or one you are leading in. Couple that with passing it 70% of the time, and you're probably going to see your QB make some mistakes. I like EB, but he's done very little to try and protect Howell from himself in some of these situations especially in the 2nd half.
 
I agree. If Sam Howell were a #1 draft pick, you would see talking heads in the media and all over the league talking about how the Commanders are not protecting their investment by failing to protect him with an adequate OL, TE and running game.

That's the rub. When a guy is a #5 draft pick, ex-players and coaches value the player simply as a 'guy' and don't speak out on these kinds of concerns because well..............................he's only a middle round pick :poop:
 

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