Coronavirus - COVID19

It is just the beginning. We have just started getting slammed by it.

Worldwide the death toll is over 11K.

we are getting the flu AND COVID-19. That is the biggest issue I see here. We aren't anywhere near ready to combat it. this isn't "a runny nose" by any means.
 
Yes. We don't know what the final toll of COVID-19 will be (but that doesn't equate to it being anywhere near the threat the annual flu is). Again - perspective. Worldwide death toll from COVID-19 over 11K? The WHO estimates 290,000 to 650,000 worldwide die from the flu on average each year. Even if that estimate is wildly inflated, it dwarfs anything we've seen from the corona virus. It's possible that will change or that there are far more deaths than we know about. But that's what we know statistically so far.
 
Ok. For the most part I have been focused on the symptoms and medical aspects of this...especially since someone in my family recently had a medical emergency requiring surgery. Now I have turned my attention to the bigger picture trying to understand what is going on. I have not connected all the dots yet. I am enlisting your support - we have a diverse community here from all walks of life and experience/dispositions. Some of this will have a polictical dimension which I believe is unavoidable, but which I think is critical to full undertanding or future examination. I will be unemotional in my declaratives. If anyone disagrees, I will either ackowledge the mistake on my part, respectfully and unemotionally respond or simply let the community decide - hopefully in a dispassionate manner as well. I realize this is skirting at the edge of how Boone et al have defined this site's business rules but believe this is important enough to risk. This initial post will establish context, some knowns and unknowns. Given the medium it won't be published with the organizaiton of a doctoral thesis! I am also posting because today is the first time I have been somewhat angered by how the analysis, information sharing and self-interest has been playing out across all sectors. I want to get at the truth, have good decisions made and get on with life. I don't want any of you impacted by this disease and trust that you have enough confidence in me to not see this as a polemic. It obviously will have a point-of-view as it evolves, but I will be circumspect and disciplined. The ideas will be broken into separate messages as I tire or need to think through the next pieces.

A. Context
1. Theory/Science.
a. The backdrop, not really addressed in the popular media/news we consume each day, is network theory coupled to social theory.
- network theory: This goes back hundreds of years. Forgive me if following over-simplifies. We're all likely familiar with network graphs: nodes and links. These provide the morphology, if you will, for how communication/information sharing is stochastically seen to happen whether the medium is routers/fiber or word of mouth. There is math and analysis (science) behind this. It is, for example, the emprical observation that lies behind the 6 degrees of separation to Kevin Bacon game.
- social theory: grossly reducing a complex issue here (and one I disagree with some prevailing theory). The idea is that as social creatures we exhibit the tendancy, over time, to aggregate our information sharing with folks who share common attributes. The "science" has a broad set of variables it considers viable candiidates for attributes, so you quickly run into problems data scientists confront when building what are called unsupervised classification models. The warning here is to be very careful on how the conclusions from these models are promulgated - the statistics are easy to manipulate. I digress, but it's important to keep in mind in the present environment.
b. Relevance. Pandemic models are built on this backdrop. There are other factors, but I'm keeping to the basics here. Behind all the stuff we are obseving in released information is modeling of the spread of this disease. The following can be surmised from what has been publicly made available:
- the disease is not completely understood yet in terms of its lifecycle for many reasons:
. not enough data and untrustworthy/unauthoritative data
. insufficient testing (and, I would add in since I have not seen much on this: unknown false positive/false negative rates for tests),
. insufficient availability of tests
. initial uncertainties on how the disease propagates
. uncertainties on the longevity of the disease vis transmission mechanisms (e.g., sitting as a droplet on a surface)
. uncertainties about susceptibility to reinfection
. uncertainties about impacted demographics (e.g., younger folks not at risk but evidence of youth contracting and dieing from the disease)
. poor leadership decisions (e.g. Italy)
. influence of emigration patterns (e.g., Northern Italy); i.e., links in the graph
- Assumption: these pandemic diseases exhibit some similar properties, but nevertheless differ sufficiently enough that each inevitably requires data (i.e., patient cases) and analsyis to be understood
- Conclusion: the obvious conclusion is that immediate solutions should never have been expected; there is a timeline for this framed by the disease itself, statistically significant number of documented cases and time to confirm/disprove hypothesis tests (for mechanisms and cures). What we haven't been told by politicians, scientists and media "intellectuals" is what that timeline is expected to be. Hence, the conversation always deflects to palliatives (e.g., social distance, flattening the curve, etc.).; in short, influencing the shape of the network graph assumed to define propagation (e.g., breaking links) and the social attributes that influence social groupings (i.e., the nodes, who groups in nodes, and the influence these social groupings have on the shape of the temporal properties of the graph - new/deleted links).
- Conclusion/Belief: If one thinks about it, you can see how easily this can be routed in directions that are not principally scientific.
- Theme: It's subtle....I believe that to some degree, the Corona-virus messaging has been biased by all of the messengers. Some for ideological reasons, some for raw power reasons (i.e., China), some out of conditioning (face it, our society has been balkanized into camps for many reasons over many decades), some for containment reasons, some out of ignorance, some out of shere malicious intent. More on this later. One then has to decide who to believe - that wasn't always the case. There was a time when wearing the label of a professional had cachet and implicit trust. This has been a major problem for all of us from day one of this disease. A whole set of discussions flows out of this belief; perhaps for another time.
- Theme: we must be patient, however vexing. We must undertand that we are at the stage of understanding the disease and implementing barriers intended to arrest propagation based on the underlying logic of network graphs and social theory. We must understand the strengths, weaknesses and risks of this approach. I think it's the correct approach. But, like some guy said at one time in a different venue: "Trust but verify". Be vigilant in running things down to ground truth whether it's the President, a Presidential candidate, Faucci (see his love letter to HRC that hit the airwaves this morning), a CNN/Fox talking head wagging a finger at us or one of the million and a half media doctors.

B. Root Cause(s)
1. Fact. There have been other diseases that have started in China over the last decade. The evidence is easy to find on-line.
2. Fact. Covid-19 started in China.
a. Uncertainty: we don't know whether this had its inception in a P4 Lab in Wuhan or dangerous practices related to what is being eaten. This discussion in itself leads down many lanes that are crtitical to examine, but, for the moment, I do not want to distract from primary themes. It, however, must be returned to at some point. If this is indeed a recurring pattern, it is an obvious responsbility to ask why and how come nothing has been done to ameliorate (to use mild language) the causes.

More to come.....I'm tired at present...and it will also give Boone a chance to PM me or banish me! Don't change the channel! Hang in there shipmates....we will get through this disease. Each in a different way, but I can tell from your posts that all are headed in a positive direction. Please share your thoughts and add in pieces I am missing. I have a structure, but as noted, am tired at the moment.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes. We don't know what the final toll of COVID-19 will be (but that doesn't equate to it being anywhere near the threat the annual flu is). Again - perspective. Worldwide death toll from COVID-19 over 11K? The WHO estimates 290,000 to 650,000 worldwide die from the flu on average each year. Even if that estimate is wildly inflated, it dwarfs anything we've seen from the corona virus. It's possible that will change or that there are far more deaths than we know about. But that's what we know statistically so far.
but, that happens every year. that is something that we know and have adjusted to. Does it suck? Yep!

But, this is a worldwide epidemic that is happening that is not something we can prepare for. Countries, not just the USA, are shutting down. Canada and Mexico are essentially closing their borders. This isn't just media driven; its real.
 
I don't have any issues with that post Al. Honestly - I am not a moderator on this site (or more accurately, I do not want to be a moderator on this site). I lack the patience, objectivity, and personality inherent in guys like Henry and Miles Monroe to perform that function well. I spend hours daily managing the technical aspects of the site and ensuring new content continues to flow. I don't have the time, desire, or skills to moderate.

We found long ago, after numerous attempts that all ended unsuccessfully, that it is not possible here (nor anywhere else on the web) for folks to discuss politics and controversial subjects without enmity, disrespect, and rudeness. So we are done with that experiment. As long as this (or any) discussion skirts those areas, we don't ever want to restrict convo's folks want to have. That's the point of having a community.
 
but, that happens every year. that is something that we know and have adjusted to. Does it suck? Yep!

But, this is a worldwide epidemic that is happening that is not something we can prepare for. Countries, not just the USA, are shutting down. Canada and Mexico are essentially closing their borders. This isn't just media driven; its real.

I don't really understand that line of thinking though Mike. Nowhere have I said it's not real. In fact I have repeatedly said it is real. I'm simply providing a contrasting perspective based on what we DO know regarding the flu. Look at those average death totals from the flu. The numbers are what the numbers are. Just because we have vaccines for the flu and it is a known threat doesn't mitigate those numbers. Death is death. I am in no way minimizing COVID-19. I work in a hospital as does my wife. I have a son-in-law who is in the biggest hotspot in the world for this virus. And I'm personally at high risk for a bad outcome. I totally get it. I also think Al nicely summarized how little we know about COVID-19. It's possible it really is on a level (or worse) than the flu pandemic that sweeps across the world every year. I'm just saying that, based on the data we currently have available, it suggests that the flu may be a far deadlier threat. It could be that it is exactly because the world is responding so aggressively to this virus that we are not seeing the number of deaths we see with the flu every year. If that's the case it is a wonderful thing and perhaps in the future those strategies will reduce flu deaths as well. My only real point is that perspective is important. If you get the flu and die or you get COVID-19 and die, which organism caused your death doesn't really mater. It is a tragedy regardless.
 
well, I do agree with you. But, we get the flu shot every year to try and combat it the best we can. Medicines, treatments, and great steps are taken every year by most of us to prevent it.

With little that we know so far, and the aggressiveness of the disease it seems that social distancing is the best idea we got right now.

People also said "kids cant get it, they can only be carriers" and that was proven wrong.

I am just worried about these fools that refuse to social distance that are causing it to continue to spread. I don't want to get political or alienate anyone, but that reminds me of the anti-vaxxers and the return of Polio. Just stay on your freaking property, say hello to people from a distance, go to the stores only when absolutely necessary, and lets hope it goes away once it gets warm out.
 
They are trying to get people to stay indoors and away from others to kill off this virus. Why would they say anything to stop that?

Have you dealt with large groups of people who dont want to comply? Nobody owes you anything.


I get that.
But if they do anything close to what i stated, it would help justify the drastic measures and restrictions, and the tremendous sacrifices people are making
 
I get that.
But if they do anything close to what i stated, it would help justify the drastic measures and restrictions, and the tremendous sacrifices people are making
The point is, it isn't what YOU want, it is about making people better and keeping them safe. magic words or saying something to make you feel better shouldn't be on anyone's list for helping the entire population.
 
The point is, it isn't what YOU want, it is about making people better and keeping them safe. magic words or saying something to make you feel better shouldn't be on anyone's list for helping the entire population.


You're right it's not about me. But a lot of others feel the same way, and frankly, I think they do deserve an explanation, if they're going to make such severe sacrifices, also which are unprecedented
 
Last edited:
well, I do agree with you. But, we get the flu shot every year to try and combat it the best we can. Medicines, treatments, and great steps are taken every year by most of us to prevent it.

With little that we know so far, and the aggressiveness of the disease it seems that social distancing is the best idea we got right now.

People also said "kids cant get it, they can only be carriers" and that was proven wrong.

I am just worried about these fools that refuse to social distance that are causing it to continue to spread. I don't want to get political or alienate anyone, but that reminds me of the anti-vaxxers and the return of Polio. Just stay on your freaking property, say hello to people from a distance, go to the stores only when absolutely necessary, and lets hope it goes away once it gets warm out.

Amen Mike.
 
You're right it's not about me. But a lot of others feel the same way, and frankly, I think they do deserve an explanation, if they're going to make such severe sacrifices, also which are unprecedented
OK - they say something then to make you and the select others feel better. What if it turns out they are wrong? How mad is everyone? What happens then?

what severe sacrifices are most of making? Staying home?

Point is; they are putting out facts as they get them. Like you said, it is unprecedented. Anything outside of stats and ways to help are setting themselves up for something else dramatic.
 
I don't think our government, seeing what is transpiring in other countries, has had any choice but to take this extremely seriously. I would argue that their response to this threat has been extremely aggressive and praise-worthy. The biggest downside by far to what we have done in the US has been the devastating effect on the financial markets. Personally - I believe the moment this threat is perceived as largely over, the US market and economy will come roaring back in a way we haven't seen - ever. But right now - it's about as bad as it's ever been and could get a lot worse. That being said, I don't see any way that we could avoid taking the actions we've taken at the Federal and State level.
 
our small businesses are most definitely suffering. Our family has taken it upon ourselves to eat out (delivery or pick up) 2x a week to help however we can. It isn't much, but it seems like everyone in this small town are doing it.
 
If I were President - I would be publicly shaming large investors. The panic selling that we have seen is cowardly, despicable, and so hurtful. I almost wish that they would shut down all trading until we are past this crisis. Large investors in this country are intelligent enough to know that this is a transient threat and that long-term this will likely be a blip on the radar. Instead, investors flee the market like panicked little girls. I really think it's disgusting. Man up and show some ****ing faith and courage instead of selfishly dumping investments because you are worried about short-term losses.
 
To be 100% honest: This $1000 check we are supposed to get....that isn't going in to small businesses.

Ive heard "I am paying off bills" "I will stock up on ammo" and all kinds of stuff.

I like the sentiment, but it isn't going to help.
 
The US has asked the USOC to delay swimming so that athletes can properly train.

That is another casualty. Once we get out of this, how delayed is everything going to be?
 
If I were President - I would be publicly shaming large investors. The panic selling that we have seen is cowardly, despicable, and so hurtful. I almost wish that they would shut down all trading until we are past this crisis. Large investors in this country are intelligent enough to know that this is a transient threat and that long-term this will likely be a blip on the radar. Instead, investors flee the market like panicked little girls. I really think it's disgusting. Man up and show some ****ing faith and courage instead of selfishly dumping investments because you are worried about short-term losses.

I agree. But this is also very much big money. I have believed for a long time the stock markets are manipulated. It's a complicated argument I don't fully understand the technicalities of - but the idea is that the theoretical free market pricing of companies has largely been supplanted by price manipulation through these international oligopolies and monetization of government, corporate and personal debt at unprecedented levels. The Wall Street hedge funds and others value these things based not on suppy/demand but how the prices (i.e., profit taking) are orchestrated internationally. There's a lot more behind it including international organizations that help provide a legal/policy plane for this and governments (i.e., politicians) who (and their families) are getting rich /passing favorable legislation and finaincing campaigns through money laundering (otherwise known as lobbyist, PAC, foundations contributions). It's been in front of us for a long time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: Ax

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 3, Members: 0, Guests: 3)

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top