Random Commanders Thoughts

[stevenaa]

I hate comparisons to former players/coaches before the comparee accomplishes anything. The book is wide open on Gruden. He did seem to learn and move forward last year. If that trend continues, he may turn into an excellent coach. I've no problem with the team growing a coach, and I've no problem with a HC coming in as a Rookie having a lot to learn. He could crash and burn. I think it's more likely he'll be regarded as above average to very good, helped in part by McL's ability to build a roster, and that's not a slight on Gruden. He seems to have the team, even going through that first year turmoil and that says something to me. If he figures out how to make the running game effective, the team will make big strides.

 

[ntotoro]

That run game is a huge "if," though.

Historically, he has never had one and my thoughts are it'll take a complete overhaul of the run scheme for that to happen. Lots of attempts, pittance of actual yardage.

Nick

 

[Bulldog]

I wouldn't compare the 1981 Skins that Gibbs inherited and the club Gruden took over in 2014.

The 1981 team had a 'core' of veterans that would help the team contend sooner rather than later.

Riggins, Monk, Warren, Moseley, Butz, Coleman, Milot, Peters, etc.

The team also had a veteran quarterback in Joe Theismann and a pro bowl returner in Mike Nelms.

Gruden inherited Trent Williams and Ryan Kerrigan while Kirk Cousins was on the bench as an unproven backup.

Not the same depth of talent.

 

[Ax]

Then by all means, let's put Gruden up there with Gibbs, Lombardi, Knoll, and the likes.

Gibbs 1.0 didn't get to coach when the rules so heavily favored the offense.
He also never looked lost.
He also never quit during games.
He was a leader who always kept things in house.

 

[Bulldog]

Gibbs looked lost the first 5 weeks of the 1981 season when he installed the San Diego offense here and then realized that Joe Theismann was not Dan Fouts in terms of release, Ike Forte and Wilbur Jackson were not Chuck Muncie and the Redskins had no deep threats to compare to Wes Chandler and John Jefferson.....................

Those were some brutal games to watch. Theismann looked completely out of his element and the OL was not adept at pass blocking to give him adequate time putting the ball up that many times a game.

So, Gibbs changed the offense mid-way through the season and the offense improved, cut down on turnovers and the club started to win games in the second half of the season. That momentum carried into 1982.

You could say the same thing in 1985 and 1986. Gibbs and the coaching staff were at a loss trying to figure out how to limit the Giants' defense and LT and put points on the board against a Parcells team that seemed to have our number.

We even tried Russ Grimm at center to add size and strength inside to try and run the ball against that 3-4 defense.

Ultimately, the Gibbs and the Redskins would start to employ 3 wide receiver sets in 1987 and spread things out to be able to move the ball and score points against teams like the Giants and Eagles.

But in both cases, the 'solutions' didn't come until there had been some failures and trial/error.

Anyone who says now that we simply danced our way to 3 Super Bowl wins from 1981-1992 under Gibbs must recall those time from games re-broadcast on ESPN Classic or highlights on Youtube.

Sitting in the stands for a lot of those games, it was a real fight to make headway in a division with that many good teams.

In 1986 the Redskins were in fact the second best team in the NFL, the problem was that the best team, NY, was in the same division and we ended up playing them 3 times, going 0-3.

That 1986 team was 12-1 against the rest of the NFL.

Gruden came in here in 2014 and this team outside of Williams, Kerrigan, Garcon and ultimately Cousins (although no one was sure at the time) was not one where future building blocks were popping out at you from a glance at the roster.

And he still had to deal with the Robert Griffin situation, something that Gibbs never had to deal with.

Cooke left the personnel up to Beathard and Gibbs. Gibbs was never forced to play a guy he didn't think was capable of getting the job done.

Hence the early exit from the team by high draft choices such as Wally Kleine (#2 in 1983), Walter Murray (#2 in 1985?) and Tory Nixon/Brian Davis (both #2 picks) in the mid to late 1980's.

 

[Goaldeje]

What is happening?

I need to go back to bed.

 

[Bulldog]

No, what I am trying to say is that there were a number of players here in 1981 when Gibbs came in the door that not only were going to become core players for him and a couple (Riggins, Monk) were going to end up in the Hall of Fame.

Beathard then drafted Grimm, May, Manley, Grant, Brown and Didier in that first Gibbs draft in 1981.

Again, one Hall of Famer in Grimm and other players in Manley, Brown and May that made at least one pro bowl in their careers.

The odds are that Jay Gruden is never going to reach the heights that Gibbs did even with McCloughan's sharp eye. Let's face it, few if any coaches will, that's why Gibbs is a Hall of Famer himself.

But I don't see any reason why Gruden and Scot McCloughan can't put together a team on the order of the Thompson/McCarthy Packers or Tomlin Steelers and go to and win ONE Super Bowl together

 

[ntotoro]

didn't Riggins walk away and Gibbs went to get him? Not exactly screaming hall of fame.

Scot is lining up plenty of VERY talented players who, you never know, could make the hall of fame. or win a super bowl.

if their head coach knows how to lead them =)

Their head coach doesn't even know how to put together a running game.

Nick

 

[TomE]

Ok, I've attempted to attach some audio on what Cooley and Sheehan were talking about when Cooley referenced 'Joe'.
Essentially the two are rating the local coaches.... who's the best, worst, etc. it varies depending on which years they look at.

Unfortunately, the mp3 does not 'autoplay', it wants to download to your device if you click on it (at least that's what its doing on my rig) and you'll need to play it from there. So be warned


View attachment Clip Cooley and Sheehan Gibbs.mp3

Another way to hear is at the station, you'll need to slide over to about 36:10 to get to it without listening to the whole thing.

ESPN 980 Audio Vault - Play Now

 

[ntotoro]

The better comparison is what Coach Gibbs did in 2005 and 2007. He got into a festering organization with Vinny Cerrato calling the personnel shots and got them to the playoffs both years. One with "Scott" Brunell at QB and the other with Jason "Candle" and Todd Collins at QG. Oh, yeah... and a teammate was murdered in 2007.

But Jay Gruden can't even figure out how to run the football any stage of his coaching/coordinating career.

Nick

 

[Ax]

Gibbs looked lost the first 5 weeks of the 1981 season when he installed the San Diego offense here and then realized that Joe Theismann was not Dan Fouts in terms of release, Ike Forte and Wilbur Jackson were not Chuck Muncie and the Redskins had no deep threats to compare to Wes Chandler and John Jefferson.....................

Actually, we were statistically doing alright in those first 5 games. It just didn't show up with points on the board. Or wins.

Those were some brutal games to watch. Theismann looked completely out of his element and the OL was not adept at pass blocking to give him adequate time putting the ball up that many times a game.

So, Gibbs changed the offense mid-way through the season and the offense improved, cut down on turnovers and the club started to win games in the second half of the season. That momentum carried into 1982.

One of the most glaring differences between Gibbs and Gruden. Gibbs wasn't too proud to change his system. Gruden knows one way. And, when the opposition has responded the way he planned for, it looks good. When they don't, we looked worse than any team Gibbs ever put on the field.

But in both cases, the 'solutions' didn't come until there had been some failures and trial/error.

Again, a willingness to change, verses a rigid system guy.

Anyone who says now that we simply danced our way to 3 Super Bowl wins from 1981-1992 under Gibbs must recall those time from games re-broadcast on ESPN Classic or highlights on Youtube.

Agreed. It's why trying to compare Gruden to Gibbs is so idiotic. We don't yet know what Gruden will ultimately be. But, unless you've got a irrational man-crush on the guy, **cough** McD **cough** he's clearly not the coach Joe was, at the same point in their careers.

Gruden came in here in 2014 and this team outside of Williams, Kerrigan, Garcon and ultimately Cousins (although no one was sure at the time) was not one where future building blocks were popping out at you from a glance at the roster.

And he still had to deal with the Robert Griffin situation, something that Gibbs never had to deal with.

And the smart money says the Robert Griffin situation would not have been the problem for Gibbs that it apparently was for Jay.

Cooke left the personnel up to Beathard and Gibbs. Gibbs was never forced to play a guy he didn't think was capable of getting the job done.

Neither was Jay. That he chose to bow to the wishes of anyone else, if that's what even happened, is 100% on him. IMHO.

No, what I am trying to say is that there were a number of players here in 1981 when Gibbs came in the door that not only were going to become core players for him and a couple (Riggins, Monk) were going to end up in the Hall of Fame.

Well, although he wasn't a rookie the second time around, Gibbs 2.0 was better than Gruden those first 2 years too. Without the greatest roster in the world either.

The odds are that Jay Gruden is never going to reach the heights that Gibbs did even with McCloughan's sharp eye. Let's face it, few if any coaches will, that's why Gibbs is a Hall of Famer himself.

Correct. Which is why they aren't comparable. It's not fair to Jay.

But I don't see any reason why Gruden and Scot McCloughan can't put together a team on the order of the Thompson/McCarthy Packers or Tomlin Steelers and go to and win ONE Super Bowl together

Uh, multiple SB's dude. Multiple.

 

[McD5]

No, what I am trying to say is that there were a number of players here in 1981 when Gibbs came in the door that not only were going to become core players for him and a couple (Riggins, Monk) were going to end up in the Hall of Fame.

Beathard then drafted Grimm, May, Manley, Grant, Brown and Didier in that first Gibbs draft in 1981.

Again, one Hall of Famer in Grimm and other players in Manley, Brown and May that made at least one pro bowl in their careers.

The odds are that Jay Gruden is never going to reach the heights that Gibbs did even with McCloughan's sharp eye. Let's face it, few if any coaches will, that's why Gibbs is a Hall of Famer himself.

But I don't see any reason why Gruden and Scot McCloughan can't put together a team on the order of the Thompson/McCarthy Packers or Tomlin Steelers and go to and win ONE Super Bowl together

I think you are pretty right on BT.

Both guys share the same philosophy and seem to be on the same page. And both have had success with said philosophy.

I believe we have multiple SBs coming. My only concern going forward is Scot's sobriety. If he can conquer those demons and remain here ten years then I see no reason why we can't win three or more.

 

[Goaldeje]

Woke up and the lunacy continues.

McD, why are you doing this? Seriously, what are you hoping to prove? It would be bad enough if you compared a guy who hasn't won a playoff game to Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll or someone else widely considered to be a proven successful coach today. But to compare Gruden to a legend? And not only ANY legend, but Joe Freaking Gibbs? Are you trolling the board? Just trying to get a rise out of people?

Just... why?

 

[McD5]

Their head coach doesn't even know how to put together a running game.

Nick

I think you have to put that into more context. Otherwise it's just lazy. Who was his main RB in Cincy? Certainly no one great. How about his O-line?

And what defenses were they going against within the division? Pittsburgh and Baltimore?

And probably the most salient point is that it may not even matter.

He's been an OC or HC for 5 years now in the NFL. His offenses have made the playoffs in 4/5 of those years. That's beyond impressive.

The last thing I'd be worried about is the offense.

Ok, I've attempted to attach some audio on what Cooley and Sheehan were talking about when Cooley referenced 'Joe'.
Essentially the two are rating the local coaches.... who's the best, worst, etc. it varies depending on which years they look at.

Unfortunately, the mp3 does not 'autoplay', it wants to download to your device if you click on it (at least that's what its doing on my rig) and you'll need to play it from there. So be warned

View attachment 3157
View attachment 3158

Another way to hear is at the station, you'll need to slide over to about 36:10 to get to it without listening to the whole thing.

ESPN 980 Audio Vault - Play Now

Nice post. Thanks for putting in the work. I think most football minds agree.

 

[ntotoro]

I think you have to put that into more context. Otherwise it's just lazy. Who was his main RB in Cincy? Certainly no one great. How about his O-line?

And what defenses were they going against within the division? Pittsburgh and Baltimore?

And probably the most salient point is that it may not even matter.

He's been an OC or HC for 5 years now in the NFL. His offenses have made the playoffs in 4/5 of those years. That's beyond impressive.

The last thing I'd be worried about is the offense.

You were crowing during the season about the amount of rushing attempts his Offenses made in Cincy. The yards per carry looked scarily like those with the 'Skins. So you're saying now that three years as an O-Coordinator in Cincy, he couldn't figure out a run game and the excuse was the Division? How about the last two years? It's not the Division, it's the lousy scheme.

The Steelers did have a top-five or top-ten rushing D in two of those three years years (depending on the stat), but the yards per attempt in Cincy were no better against any other team they played. Pittsburgh's run-D took a huge nose-dive in 2013 (ranking high or low 20's, again depending on the stat) and Cincy was still meh.

Baltimore? Top-five the in 2011, 20's in 2012 and top-five or mid-low 10's in 2013, depending on the stat. Cincy? Still meh.

Nick

 

[Henry]

I wouldn't compare the 1981 Skins that Gibbs inherited and the club Gruden took over in 2014.

The 1981 team had a 'core' of veterans that would help the team contend sooner rather than later.

Riggins, Monk, Warren, Moseley, Butz, Coleman, Milot, Peters, etc.

The team also had a veteran quarterback in Joe Theismann and a pro bowl returner in Mike Nelms.

Gruden inherited Trent Williams and Ryan Kerrigan while Kirk Cousins was on the bench as an unproven backup.

Not the same depth of talent.

Gruden had a QB one year removed from a pro-bowl season. He had a pro-bowl running back. He had a pro-bowl left tackle. He had a pro-bowl #1 WR. He had a #2 WR coming off a franchise record-breaking 113 catches for 1300 yards. He had a pro-bowl pass-rusher. He had Jordan Reed and Ryan Kerrigan. He had a top punter.

The cupboard was not bare. Let's not overstate the talent Gibbs had or understate the talent Gruden had.

Gibbs looked lost the first 5 weeks of the 1981 season when he installed the San Diego offense here and then realized that Joe Theismann was not Dan Fouts in terms of release, Ike Forte and Wilbur Jackson were not Chuck Muncie and the Redskins had no deep threats to compare to Wes Chandler and John Jefferson.....................

Those were some brutal games to watch. Theismann looked completely out of his element and the OL was not adept at pass blocking to give him adequate time putting the ball up that many times a game.

So, Gibbs changed the offense mid-way through the season and the offense improved, cut down on turnovers and the club started to win games in the second half of the season. That momentum carried into 1982.

THIS is what made Gibbs a Hall of Fame coach. Not the talent. The ability to realize his scheme wasn't working, throw that scheme out, and adjust it on the fly. Eventually Gibbs even did that within a game itself. This is something Gruden, for all talent and insight, has not yet shown any ability to do, whatsoever. He seems more interested in replacing the talent that doesn't fit rather than figuring out how to win with the talent he has. He is extremely rigid regarding his game plans, which is why the Redskins seem to play REALLY well for about half of each game ... and then try and hang on by their fingernails for the win. This is something Gibbs (the first time around) didn't have a problem with. Again, why he's in the Hall of Fame.

Gruden has a WAY to go before being mentioned in the same breath. A long way to go.

 

[Om]

Woke up and the lunacy continues.

McD, why are you doing this? Seriously, what are you hoping to prove? It would be bad enough if you compared a guy who hasn't won a playoff game to Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll or someone else widely considered to be a proven successful coach today. But to compare Gruden to a legend? And not only ANY legend, but Joe Freaking Gibbs? Are you trolling the board? Just trying to get a rise out of people?

Just... why?

Can't let this go without comment ... if there is "lunacy" going on here it is NOT just coming from McD. He comes at the Gruden Assessment relentlessly from the sunny side of the street, no doubt, but those who cannot abide that notion come at it from a place as relentlessly dark as his is bright.

Is it too much to ask of all concerned that we carry on the conversation with a minimum of ass-hattery?

 

[Henry]

I think you have to put that into more context. Otherwise it's just lazy. Who was his main RB in Cincy? Certainly no one great. How about his O-line?

And what defenses were they going against within the division? Pittsburgh and Baltimore?

Welp, this year he had a two-time pro-bowl running back and the division sported the #22, 24 and 32 run defenses in the NFL.

At some point it ain't the rest of the world's fault. If the pattern is there it's there. Gruden's teams can't run ... until they can.

And probably the most salient point is that it may not even matter.

He's been an OC or HC for 5 years now in the NFL. His offenses have made the playoffs in 4/5 of those years. That's beyond impressive.

Er ... The Bengals' defense was top ten in both points and yards all three of the years Gruden's 'offenses' made the playoffs. Might have been a factor. During that same span Gruden's offenses were top ten in points and yards exactly once each.

Hey, on the balance I was happy with Gruden this year. Don't spoil it.

 

[Goaldeje]

Eh... I'll PM it. Nothing to see here.

 

[Henry]

Nice post. Thanks for putting in the work. I think most football minds agree.

Cooley said that Gruden may be the best since Joe Gibbs of bringing players together and getting them to buy into what he's doing.

Sorry, but that is a far far FAR cry from what we've been talking about.

Doctson might be the best WR since Randy Moss at leaping up and bringing down a pass. That does not mean he's Randy Moss, or the next Randy Moss, or is comparable to Randy Moss in any way except one.

Personally, it's good to hear that Gruden is good at being a players' coach. And thanks Tom for finding that.

But I think we can take that for what it is. A complement about one of Gruden's supposed strengths. That's it.

Doesn't make him Joe Gibbs.