Will we sign Josh Norman?

[bird_1972]

The D line is huge. Which is why it will likely be the top priority in the draft.

As far as waiting on a move like this, there is still a bigger problem with that. The macro picture is that a 3-13, 4-12 roster pretty much sucked. There was a big talent void there that needed to be filled with quality players.

We will lose 3-4 starters every year, due to injury, age, level of play...etc. Pot Roast, Alfred and Hatcher this year, for starters.

If we really hit on every draft, we'll score 3-4 new starters every year.

We can improve like that over a long period of time. As long as we hit every year in the draft. But there's still a wide gap going by only that process alone.

A great, newly drafted CB this season would take 3-4 years to reach Norman's level of play. If we want real improvement in those coming years, someone needed to be signed. There are just too many holes on the team that need to be filled by the draft alone.

1) Agree on DL. I really, really hope we invest a couple of picks high in the draft on DL given the talent coming out this year.
2) I never suggested FA is not a route to go - only prefer going top-flight FA when we are only a couple of pieces away. FA signings rarely live up to their contracts.

Other than a good draft, I'm keen to see how the front office deals with Cousins and Reed long term deals. I always feel better about gambles like the Norman signing when they are counter-balanced with other team-strengthening moves elsewhere on the roster.

 

[redskins26]

Looking over the details now.

Josh Norman Contract, Salary Cap Details & Breakdowns | Spotrac

Cap hit this year is $8 mil. Very reasonable.

2017 - cap hit is $20 million (!) and would cost us $28 million to cut him (!!!). I assume we are expecting the cap to go up a lot in 2017. I hope he has a career year in 2017.

Cap hit goes down after that. Not much, but by 2018 maybe $17 million against the cap won't be considered so much. Maybe.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this looks like a 5 year deal to me, not a 2 year deal in disguise.

The one thing I really really do actually like about it is that it's not backloaded. So there's that.

thats the good thing is we really haven't had to back load a lot of contracts the last few years wich gives us fair value across the board. Except for this year seems fairly even I was wondering what the signing bonus would be
While we could cut him after 2 years cutting him after year 3 seems to make more since if he underperformed

But if he continues to play at a high level he might see the whole contract

 

[Henry]

It's really a two year contract. A bet by McLovin that Norman can become our Richard Sherman or Talib. We're paying him $18.25 million guaranteed a year in those first two to find out. That's our risk.

If not....we cut ties and we aren't severely wounded going forward.

That's a hell of a lot different than they were trying to make it sound on the tv yesterday.

Sorry. A $9 million cap hit is not nothing. That's a huge hit for cutting a player.

A $9 million cap hit would be the 6th highest hit on the team this year, amongst guys that are actually on the roster. I know that in two years the cap will be higher and all, but $9 million will not be insignificant by then.

This is a big, monster contract. It's not badly structured, but it's big and it's a monster.

Not something I'd generally put forth for a CB.

You've brought up Andre Roberts as a sort of rationale for this contract, and, well, that was a bad signing. It was obvious at the time. The same questions of value vs. position were being brought up on this board back then, too. We shouldn't have signed a backup to starter money. It's bad value. Noting parallels between the Roberts signing and this one is not making the justification any better ...

 

[Fear The Spear]

Speaking of Roberts, why is he still on the team ?

 

[redskins26]

I agree that I could care less about the $$ provided it doesn't hurt the team's chances of being able to lock down Cousins and Reed and still have cap space for other signings.

Heck, I didn't think we were a playoff team last year so I may end up being pleasantly surprised.

This draft is going to be huge for us. Still need DT, ILB, C, and S. And talent depth...

EDIT: Apparently this was a money decision by the Carolina FO but they kinda screwed Norman by doing this after all of the big money teams had spent all of their money in March/early April. That said, Norman still came out pretty darn good here.

I think we take a WR in the mix to if last years rookie WR improved and taking one this year who can get 400-500 yards then it makes some decisions easier

 

[redskins26]

Speaking of Roberts, why is he still on the team ?

Injury he has to clear medical physical or we have to pay him an injury settlement.

 

[bird_1972]

Sorry. A $9 million cap hit is not nothing. That's a huge hit for cutting a player.

A $9 million cap hit would be the 6th highest hit on the team this year, amongst guys that are actually on the roster. I know that in two years the cap will be higher and all, but $9 million will not be insignificant by then.

This is a big, monster contract. It's not badly structured, but it's big and it's a monster.

Not something I'd generally put forth for a CB.

Henry,

Just curious - if we cut Roberts and either cut/restructure Culliver (not sure if we can do the latter or not), would you feel a little more comfortable with the cap hit this year?

I know it doesn't address 2017 and possibly 2018 but I'm hoping Norman continues on his trajectory in our defense, provided we do the right thing and prioritize the DL in the draft.

 

[redskins26]

Henry,

Just curious - if we cut Roberts and either cut/restructure Culliver (not sure if we can do the latter or not), would you feel a little more comfortable with the cap hit this year?

I know it doesn't address 2017 and possibly 2018 but I'm hoping Norman continues on his trajectory in our defense, provided we do the right thing and prioritize the DL in the draft.

i doubt Culliver gets cut before they see if he can return to form from injury. If he returns to form he is a solid second CB with breeland an above average 3rd

 

[McD5]

It's really not big or a monster.

And a $9 million cap hit three years from now won't be the sixth largest on the team--let alone in the league.

It would probably be more like the 10th largest on the team. And maybe 85th in the league overall.

 

[bird_1972]

i doubt Culliver gets cut before they see if he can return to form from injury. If he returns to form he is a solid second CB with breeland an above average 3rd

I disagree with you here.

I think Breeland is way way better than an "above average 3rd" CB. He was playing very well last year and, in my opinion, close to a top CB (albeit not at the level of a Josh Norman yet, but he IS young).

 

[Henry]

Henry,

Just curious - if we cut Roberts and either cut/restructure Culliver (not sure if we can do the latter or not), would you feel a little more comfortable with the cap hit this year?

I know it doesn't address 2017 and possibly 2018 but I'm hoping Norman continues on his trajectory in our defense, provided we do the right thing and prioritize the DL in the draft.

Sure, but its not really a question of whether or not we can fit it under the cap. It a question of cost vs. value. You can only pay so many players $15-$20 million dollars. Generally teams save that amount for pass rushers or quarterbacks. A lock-down CB is great to have, but unless a guy is downright legendary at that spot you can't scheme an entire defense around a CB. And you shouldnt pay a CB like you can. Make no mistake, even in year three of this contract, Norman is going to be one of the five-highest players on the team. I think thats a gamble. He needs to be Michael Jordan of CBs now.

This is a monster contract. For a CB it is absolutely monsterous. While its not the end of the world, it is cause for at least some concern.

The good news is McLovin is behind the deal, and I trust him light years more than Allen or Snyder (or Vinnie). Had any one of them made the exact same move I think the entire board would be losing its collective ****right now. Fortunately thats not the case.

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[redskins26]

I disagree with you here.

I think Breeland is way way better than an "above average 3rd" CB. He was playing very well last year and, in my opinion, close to a top CB (albeit not at the level of a Josh Norman yet, but he IS young).

i meant if culliver comes back to form breeland will most likely be the third cornerback. If he doesn't he is still a solid to slightly above average second

 

[Fear The Spear]

I don't see Breeland dropping to 3rd, ever.....until he nears the end of his career.
He's a legit rising star

 

[redskins26]

I don't see Breeland dropping to 3rd, ever.....until he nears the end of his career.
He's a legit rising star

Depends on how culliver comes back from injury if he is a shell of his former self you are right

 

[Goaldeje]

The D line is huge. Which is why it will likely be the top priority in the draft.

As far as waiting on a move like this, there is still a bigger problem with that. The macro picture is that a 3-13, 4-12 roster pretty much sucked. There was a big talent void there that needed to be filled with quality players.

We will lose 3-4 starters every year, due to injury, age, level of play...etc. Pot Roast, Alfred and Hatcher this year, for starters.

If we really hit on every draft, we'll score 3-4 new starters every year.

We can improve like that over a long period of time. As long as we hit every year in the draft. But there's still a wide gap going by only that process alone.

A great, newly drafted CB this season would take 3-4 years to reach Norman's level of play. If we want real improvement in those coming years, someone needed to be signed. There are just too many holes on the team that need to be filled by the draft alone.

You've said all this before and it is just flat inaccurate. If Scot drafts well and gets us 3 starters a year, he also has the possibility of drafting other players who can develop on the bench, waiting for their turn. It takes a while but that approach can pay major dividends over the years.

I realize we're not used to having quality players on our bench, but it does happen. And I think it could continue to happen here.

Norman is a Redskins now and I am rooting for him. But this isn't the slamdunk, necessary signing people are making it out to be.

McD, you have been the biggest Gruden booster on the board. This signing means the team is expecting another step forward and I have to believe 7-9 now means Gruden is gone.

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[McD5]

Goal, if we need 8 quality starters (which we do), and we lose 3-4 starters every single year, we obviously need a lot more than just hitting on 3-4 draft picks a season.

And that's if we hit on 3-4 starters every draft. What if we whiff, and only get 1 or 2?

The difference between where our roster is, and where it needs to be obviously includes using FA to sign more than 1 year Dashon Goldson's. Scot's actions prove that he understands this.

We hit a quality top tier FA in Desean two years ago. Scot hopefully hit on another in Galette last year. We just hit on another with Norman. And Scot will try to hit on another top tier FA next year and the year after.

There's simply too much ground to make up.

After our needs have dropped from 8 or 9 quality starters down to only 4, then the draft can cover it. That's when you'll see us less active in FA and mainly focused on signing our own players.

 

[Goaldeje]

So did you read my post or just skim? As I said, the goal of the draft is to get immediate starting help, but also to provide players who can learn while sitting on the bench. So you're essentially providing two pools of players - immediate help plus those you think will be ready to help in 2-3 years.

If you do the math on that scenario, it doesn't take long before you've got a really good team, plus a whole other pretty good team sitting behind the starting team waiting for their chance.

This move tells me Scot thinks we're close. Real close. You don't make a move like this thinking that 6-10 or 7-9 is going to be the result. Especially not after winning the division. Personally, I'm not convinced that we are that close. I think we had some good fortune last year, and I hope we are able to improve some more this year.

I do think this puts enormous pressure on your boy and his hand picked D Coordinator. If we take a big step back, I don't see either of them surviving.

 

[McD5]

I did read your post.

We can't build a perennial playoff/SB team with drafting alone and lower tier FA signings. That much should be clear to everyone.

If it isn't clear, then why did Scot sign Galette and Norman? Why not just draft? He knows that we have too many holes, and that we need top talent through FA that the draft alone can't provide.

As for Gruden, I don't care who our coach is in the future. Gruden's been a fantastic coach for the rebuild. He repaired a broker locker room, rapidly developed our QB, and correctly made the most important decision a HC could ever make.

He's also drawn up plays to get the WRs open all over the field, and has let McLovin see just exactly what he has on the roster. He's been a rebuilding dream HC to this point.

And if Scot thought there was a better HC available anywhere in college or the pros for where we are as a team, he'd be here.

 

[Goaldeje]

If Norman comes here and is untouchable, AND we go to the NFC Championship game, I think the move will be a success. But I don't think we're that close. I was anticipating a step back back this year, but this move means we just went all in. I'm not sure we're ready for that, but I guess we'll find out before too long.

Comparing Gallette and Norman's deals is absurd, one is a bargain, the other just made Norman the top paid CB in the league. There is no comparison.

And just because you say a team can't build a SB team through draft and lower level FA signings alone doesn't mean it's true. Remind me of the huge FA deals NE has put out there to make someone the highest paid player at his position. The one time the Seahawks did it with Percy Harvin, it was a disaster.

History says (and not just history at Redskins Park, I'm talking over the whole NFL) that you are better off not taking another team's trash and counting on them being the missing piece to put you in the SB. History says you're better off drafting and developing; and when you factor in the track record this coaching staff has of being able to adapt their gameplans to the players they have available, the picture gets even muddier, imo.

Again, just because you say it can't be done through the draft doesn't mean it can't. The risk is a lot lower and the reward is a lot higher, which is why the smart teams stick to drafting.

Lord knows, I hope to hell this works out perfectly for us, but I see some red flags.

 

[redskins26]

I've never seen the infatuation with firing a coach after A bump in the road then rinse then repeat 3 years later
sometimes you need patience foresight is always best even if Scott sees us as 7-9 you make this move this year as we continue to get better. Next season is when we should make a deep run into the playoffs if everything pans out but if it pans out earlier we could do it this season