Kirk Cousins Development Tracker

[Elephant]

Some guy on twitter was predicting his contract would be $80M over 4 years with $50M guaranteed... and he was happy about it. That's a freaking anchor to the organization. If he sucks next year, you basically have to stick with him as your starting QB. I'd rather just franchise tag him and make him prove it at that rate. At least then, you get another year to kick the tires and make sure this wasn't a season like Foles2013... If he won the Super Bowl like Flacco did on a franchise year, then he'd be worthy of a multi-year mega-guaranteed contract.

Agree... Indisputable. Desean Jackson is elite... Elite players are hard to come by... I'd rather invest long term in an elite quarterback instead of making an elite investment in an average quarterback who requires elite players around him. This is why I say I'd rather franchise Cousins next year than pay him for 5 years. I need to see more of him, because I'm not satisfied that he is worth the elite investment that he'll probably command on the open market.

OK, so again...who is the elite QB? RG3? Is there one out there in Free Agency we should snag?

We do not have a shot at an elite QB right now...so for now you take the next best thing. Cousins has shown competence enough to warrant a 2nd tier QB contract.

Now, I saw the numbers you suggested were out there on Twitter and I have to say those numbers are unreasonable. We re-sign him to a deal that best suits the team.

 

[TomE]

Frankly I couldn't care less what Kirk 'gets paid', I'll leave that to the folks in the FO to battle out but considering that they have already benchmarked 16mil to the position for 2016, the money is there and in the ballpark for commitment to Kirk.

We all have to admit that Kirk has made strides this season as the first time fully supported 'starter' for this team. If folks can't see that then we'll have to pass out some more corrective lenses. Colors available are jade, clear and rose. Pick any one as long as vision is made less dim. (glasses are in the bin right next to the 'You Like That!' tee shirts. All profits go to charity so grab a handful and pass them out to the more needy)

The FO has at least two, maybe more games to evaluate Kirk and part of the offseason to check out 'feelers' and come to a decision on how much and how long. The 'tag' at this point is the only leverage this team has, the market will be there for Kirk despite our own feelings of his worth.

This team busted the Ferrari then discovered the AWD hanging out in the back of the garage, too bad it might cost above retail to figure out if it is a Land Rover or not.

 

[stevenaa]

OK, so again...who is the elite QB?

Isn't the answer obvious? Anyone but Kirk, just like the right HC is anyone but Jay. A backup QB doesn't play an entire season behind a broken Oline with no running game to support him and set numerous team passing records with two games remaining. He may not develop into a top 10, or he may. If he continues to play like this, he'll be in the top half for sure. And give me a break with his success only being due to Djax. He's improved many facets of his game. Having a stud, go deep WR will make any QB better, but Djax isn't the only reason. He's made plenty of big plays to other receivers at this point. All Kirk has done this year is learn and improve, and he is still improving. Shocking how playing time actually results in player growth. And why is his failure to secure the starting role when he had a few chances to start over a couple seasons coming off the bench getting nothing but a few snaps in practice a harbinger of future doom. History is replete with stupendous successes coming only after learning from failure. He had trouble mentally after mistakes last year, causing him to be benched. He didn't hang his head. He went and got specialist help to learn how to handle the pressure. That says something about the man and it's shown this year. For some reason, Kirk can't have any upside because he doesn't have the athletic talents of Robert. You might wan to listen to what's coming out about Kirk and his work ethic and how it's affected the team. Listen to his teammates answer questions on him and you get far more than the normal platitudes. He leads this team. They have faith in him and it shows. I've seen nothing to make me think that the guy we are seeing isn't the guy he is, and maybe more.

 

[Smoot Point]

OK, so again...who is the elite QB? RG3? Is there one out there in Free Agency we should snag?

We do not have a shot at an elite QB right now...so for now you take the next best thing. Cousins has shown competence enough to warrant a 2nd tier QB contract.

Now, I saw the numbers you suggested were out there on Twitter and I have to say those numbers are unreasonable. We re-sign him to a deal that best suits the team.

I didn't mention RGIII in any of the quotes you pulled. Why do you keep bringing him up?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough... We should NOT spend elite money on an average quarterback... If there isn't an elite quarterback, don't spend elite money. I didn't name a quarterback. If we can keep Cousins at a reasonable price with limited future impact to the club, then we do it. I'd even spend elite money for 1 season in a franchise tag for Cousins, as long as it doesn't create an anchor for the future. I've said this about 100 times in this very thread. Why do you keep bringing up RGIII? RGIII is not sticking around here for $16M, and it would be next to impossible to see him as an active player in B&G ever again. So... please... only bring up RGIII if it adds to the conversation. Right now, RGIII isn't elite. Are you happy now? Can we move on?

BTW, I believe Cousins would command those numbers on the open market... Houston, Denver, maybe even Detroit would part with Stafford if they could obtain the Michigan State QB (not a lot of intelligent thinking going on there)... Anyway, for the Redskins to give him a longterm contract: re-signing a player is about negotiating an equitable deal for all parties... It's in the best interest for Cousins and the Redskins that both sides are happy with the deal, or else he should walk and the fan-base should be prepared for him to walk and we continue our search for an elite quarterback. You don't need an elite quarterback to win, but if you pay an average quarterback elite money it cuts down on what you can pay other positions that might help the average quarterback play well enough to help you win.

 

[Smoot Point]

Isn't the answer obvious? Anyone but Kirk

We're 7-7 and haven't won a game against a team with a winning record yet... Here I am, talking about franchise tagging an average QB just so we can have one more season with him to find out if he is worth the price... Right now, he is an average quarterback. Ryan Fitzpatrick & Tyrod Taylor are having similar seasons... Are their fanbases talking about franchise tagging them? I can't imagine how you would take it if I said what Pat Kirwan said yesterday. Whatever, BGO...

 

[ntotoro]

Ultimately, I really couldn't care less what the 'Skins pay on Cap'n Kirk or any other QB. It doesn't affect my pockets and the team is already well under the cap going into next year.

Nick

 

[Fear The Spear]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough... We should NOT spend elite money on an average quarterback...

Kirk may be "average" at the moment, however, he has clearly shown a steady, consistent progression, which indicates it is very likely worth the gamble, to sign him with the conviction that he continues to eventually rise to the level of elite, or near-elite.
It's no different than the gamble of spending a high draft pick and high dollars on a college player, who you believe will develop into even greater potential.
NFL is packed full of gambles. This gamble seems more high-reward, than high-risk.
And IMO, he's even greater than average at the moment.
In his first full year as a starter, he's already breaking franchise records.

 

[Om]

If the Redskins end up paying market value to re-sign Cousins this offseason, which at this point looks fairly likely, we might have to allow for the possibility McCloughan and Gruden don't subscribe to the blanket assertion that he projects forward as just an average quarterback.

 

[TomE]

Smoot do you think Kirk has any chance at all to be a productive player for this franchise, forget all of the comparisons to elite vs average stuff.

You've already written off his being a young QB, would it be better to say 'inexperienced developing starting QB with unkown upside' (which is how I see him)

There is also a tendency to forget that until this year he was the 'backup', he did not work with the top guys off season, the plan was not 'tailored' to his proficiencies within the scheme, his input was less meaningful and there was no true competition allowed for him to even have the chance.

Yeah he's had prior opportunities to take over the job but even then he probably felt a need to overcome 2012's shooting star with spectacular play, knowing that anything less would be failure and it was.

I also don't like the idea of overpaying for or being 'stuck' with the unkown part should he fall off the cliff. The guys behind the curtain are the ones to make that call, they've seen enough to already let it out that Kirk is coming back, I just have to trust our new GM to handle the uncertainties of the future.

I also understand the sentiment of his needing a good team around him to be successful, yes at this juncture he probably does but he is also learning how to use and trust the guys around him, he knows now that he doesn't have to be 'superman' for the team to win.

To me there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a highly trained journeyman running a fully equipped shop at peak efficiency, especially with the potential for him to become a master of his craft.

The Cassel effect is in play, that's understood, the difference is that Kirk didn't take over a smooth running shop built by Brady and Belichick, he's taken over a shop with some nice gear in place but no where nearly fully equipped enough to produce high quality product. Yet, Kirk has still managed to put out a handful of nice items that most of us would be proud to display.

 

[Smoot Point]

20 quarterbacks in the NFL average over $12M per year... Tom Brady isn't one of them. 9 of those 20 average over $20M per year, and 9 of those 20 have over 40% of their contract guaranteed. I think we can agree the market is well over $12M/year and around 40% guaranteed. The $80M/5 year and $50M guaranteed is probably about market (though too much guaranteed money).

We barely survived salary cap purgatory (thanks to Mara, Lurie, the NFLPA & Goodell) because we had 2 quarterbacks on their rookie contracts. I'm not sure how anyone can say it doesn't matter.

When RGIII was the starter and McCloughan signed the 5th year option (okay, I just mentioned RGIII... queue the mob & pitchforks), I said it made sense because you locked up another year for him to prove himself at a much reduced price from either the transition tag or the franchise tag. This year, I'm basically suggesting we do the same with Cousins (though we don't have luxury of 5th year option). Just franchise tag him non-exclusive if you can't get him to agree to a deal. It's basically $6-8M more than you would've had to pay Robert, but it's worth it to have another year to figure out his true value. If you can get him to agree to a deal similar to the one that Pat Kirwan suggested yesterday, then it's a win for the Redskins.

I wish the 5th year option was available for all rookie contracts, no matter where they are drafted. Jordan Reed, Breeland... lots of options if that were the case.

Seriously, though... Franchise tag might have to go to Jordan Reed if we can't complete his deal. What to do with Cousins then? It's going to be an interesting offseason.

 

[Smoot Point]

Smoot do you think Kirk has any chance at all to be a productive player for this franchise, forget all of the comparisons to elite vs average stuff.

Yes, I do...Of course, I also think Robert would've had a chance (queue the mob). I would've wanted the extra 5th year option with Robert, and likewise I would want an extra year with Cousins before committing. This season right now looks like the tale of two quarterbacks: Foles2014 the 1st 7 games and Foles2013 the last 7 games. I'd like to have more proof, that is all. If you pay a QB a huge salary, you hope you wouldn't need to always have elite players around at elite prices to make the offense work. Look at Aaron Rodgers this season... He lost Jordy Nelson, but still operates at an elite level (albeit less than his usual). An elite QB is supposed to cover up the mistakes of other players, not rely entirely on the players around him.

If Cousins proves (even with DJax & Reed) that he can be a great QB for more than just 8 games against teams with losing records and into next season, then it would be more proof and make me personally feel more comfortable.

 

[Boone]

You must have us confused with another site - there isn't any mob here - just folks who disagree at varying levels. But no one gets run off if they don't adopt conventional wisdom. It's funny, because I think it's those that believe RG3 got screwed, ruined, and unfairly run off the game day roster who are (imho) overly sensitive. I think most here loved Griffin for an unbelievable season and wanted to see him become the guy everyone was dreaming of in 2012. But the 'mob' is just a straw man if you ask me.

As for Cousins, I agree - we can't pay him elite money. If it comes down to the franchise tag, you pay Reed elite money (because he is) and franchise Cousins.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TomE]

Yes, I do...Of course, I also think Robert would've had a chance (queue the mob). I would've wanted the extra 5th year option with Robert, and likewise I would want an extra year with Cousins before committing. This season right now looks like the tale of two quarterbacks: Foles2014 the 1st 7 games and Foles2013 the last 7 games. I'd like to have more proof, that is all. If you pay a QB a huge salary, you hope you wouldn't need to always have elite players around at elite prices to make the offense work. Look at Aaron Rodgers this season... He lost Jordy Nelson, but still operates at an elite level (albeit less than his usual). An elite QB is supposed to cover up the mistakes of other players, not rely entirely on the players around him.

If Cousins proves (even with DJax & Reed) that he can be a great QB for more than just 8 games against teams with losing records and into next season, then it would be more proof and make me personally feel more comfortable.

Yep, we'd all like more proof. Unfortunately this team doesn't have the luxury of that extra year to see both Griff's and Kirk's development to make a commitment going forward.

The time is now, choose the guy to go with because keeping both is not the apparent option, although, as we know, the world does turn in mysterious ways with this team.....(insert face palm here)

We all would have liked to see Griff develop without the injury thing in 2013 under Shanny who, by all appearances, was willing to ease Griff into the pro style offense while still using the bits of scheme suited for the kid. Unfortunately again, it didn't happen.... a shame in my book.

The Bills game provided some insight to Kirk's development. Yep, not that 'winning' team but the offense dominated, there were enough gaffs that heretofore would have not been overcome early on yet they still rolled. Kirk led the offense, answering each shift of momentum against a 'weak' opponent, is that not what we wanted to see?

Can Kirk do it without our 'weapons of destruction', we don't know yet but he's got 'em and is learning how to use them, nuttin' wrong with that.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Based on your link, Tyrod Taylor (who we saw play this weekend) is better than Cam Newton, Drew Brees & Kirk Cousins... Do you still feel confident in your use of this stat to talk about the top 15 QBs in the league?

Here are the QBs that I would say are undeniably better than Kirk Cousins (in order that I can think of them):

1) Rodgers
2) Brady
3) Roethlisberger
4) Brees
5) Palmer
6) Newton
7) Wilson
8) E Manning
9) Romo
10) Luck
11) Dalton
12) Smith
13) Flacco
14) Ryan

Pro Football Focus ‏@PFF
Lowest 5 QBs in average depth of tgt:
Philip Rivers: 7.6
Blaine Gabbert: 7.5
Teddy Bridgewater:7.4
Matthew Stafford: 6.8
Alex Smith:6.5

As you can see, Smith is not that good. Just saying.

 

[Om]

Be interesting to see how many starts, and offseasons as starter, each of those QB's on Brother Smooty's list have.

 

[Smoot Point]

You must have us confused with another site - there isn't any mob here

I was trying to be kind to Elephant and not call him out specifically.

 

[Smoot Point]

As you can see, Smith is not that good. Just saying.

Cousins was on this list until DJax showed up... I find it difficult to argue against a player who has led a team to at least 9 wins in three consecutive seasons and has less than 1.5% INT rate over that time. He isn't elite, but he is better than Kirk Cousins.

 

[Smoot Point]

Be interesting to see how many starts, and offseasons as starter, each of those QB's on Brother Smooty's list have.

Kirk Cousins is a 27 year old man and this is his 4th season as an NFL QB with 3 full uninterrupted NFL offseasons under his belt. People seem to forget that he also had 2 previous failed opportunities to become the starting QB of the Washington Redskins and was benched each time. I left Peyton Manning off the list... I was only trying to pick guys I thought would play at a consistently high level the next 3-5 years. Apparently, I inadvertently left Phillip Rivers off the list, too. I was doing this off the top of my head.

I think I made a solid case... I won't argue with anyone who wants to put Cousins in the 18-22 range of NFL quarterbacks, but if you are looking at him as a top 15 QB... I can't see that. Not at all. If you want to take 2-3 guys off the list, I still think you'd have a hard time putting him in the top 15.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

Cousins was on this list until DJax showed up... I find it difficult to argue against a player who has led a team to at least 9 wins in three consecutive seasons and has less than 1.5% INT rate over that time. He isn't elite, but he is better than Kirk Cousins.

So you are saying that the only reason for Cousin Kirk's success this season is DJax. Ok. However, I will quote PFT from earlier today: "Kirk Cousins is getting better and better, and few are willing to admit it". Count me as one of the "few" and believes that he is far better than where you place him.

 

[Om]

My point was that every single guy on your list has, I believe, not only considerably more games under their belts, but several offseasons as incumbent starters as well. That should not be ignored as a factor ... particularly so given the clear progress Kirk has made over the course of this season.