McCloughan's draft plan

[Boone]

I think lots of folks felt the public dressing down of Griffin was too harsh and not necessarily productive. I'm sure some players thought so too. But some are equating that to Gruden having zero leadership skills and not having the potential to be a good head coach. I haven't heard of any players being disgruntled with Gruden as a coach. The idea that we wouldn't have heard this through the rumor mongering DC media seems silly to me. Onyour second paragraph - amen!

 

[Goaldeje]

I think lots of folks felt the public dressing down of Griffin was too harsh and not necessarily productive. I'm sure some players thought so too. But some are equating that to Gruden having zero leadership skills and not having the potential to be a good head coach. I haven't heard of any players being disgruntled with Gruden as a coach. The idea that we wouldn't have heard this through the rumor mongering DC media seems silly to me. Onyour second paragraph - amen!

Boone, you're over-simplifying my argument. I think it's possible that Gruden could develop into a good or even great Head Coach, I just think the preponderance of evidence we have suggests otherwise. If you look at the whole picture that Gruden painted of himself last year (taking into account our record, how he handled the Griffin situation, the FACT that Griffin and Cousins both looked WORSE under him than they did under Shanahan, the decision to retain Ra-Haz-eem at all, etc), I don't have much to work with when it comes to getting excited about his potential.

 

[stevenaa]

Gruden was in a no win situation. This team was/is seriously broken on so many levels. I hated keeping Haz as a fan, but I fully understand Gruden's need to start with someone he knew. We are woefully short on talent on both sides of the ball. The Oline is bad. Griffin was broken into little pieces by the previous coaching staff, maybe to the point of not being fixable, while at the same time being enabled by the owner. We've clamored for a coach to come in an put his foot down. Gruden did that, whether or not you agree with how it went down. I don't think he's as lacking in leadership skills as some are painting him. While the play was bad a lot, I never felt like the team gave up or that he lost the team. Given the crap quotient overrun, that's a positive. Now, how much of the bad play was on Gruden and how much is the end result of decades of ineptitude from the top down, is going to be debated. It's just not a debate that can be settled until we've seen more from Gruden with the improved talent we all believe McMagic will bring. Frankly, he needs two more years to be able to have the advantage of said new talent.

 

[servumtuum]

Being inclined to avoid excessively contentious "discussions" but desiring to propose my own speculation about the affairs being discussed I'm going to throw in another variable into this chaotic equation.

Scot McCloughan.

First; it has been quite a while since any addition to the Redskins FO has been met with such near-universal acclaim, by fans, sports media, and other observers. I would say that not since the return of Joe Gibbs in 2004 has any move made by the Redskins been met with such positive fervor-and with as few negative fears about what it might mean to the Redskins future.

Scot M. has top-tier football cred when it comes to building successful rosters and noticeably raising a team's talent level to SB contending status. His hiring by the Redskins both raised hopes and, in the minds of most, likely raised the probability of the Redskins talent level improving appreciably. That, IMO, gives him more gravitas at the top-levels of the Redskins FO, than either a rookie HC or an underachieving expensive star QB.

Third;Second; Scot is GM and it has been stated several times that Scot M. has final sayso over the 53 who are on the roster at the beginning of the season.


Now, tying this into the general discussion, the problems-both real and/or imagined-involving RG3 and Jay G. will not be resolved without McLuvin's input. He is planning for a draft in which one of the major variables is a QB named Mariota. There are other QBs further down the draft list but their potential impact on what may or may not heppen with RG3 isn't sigificant. Scot M.'s decision on what to do at #5 if Mariota is still be around will both be influenced by and have a major impact on the Gruden/Griffen dynamic. (I know he uses BPA but no team completely ignores need as a variable on draft day.)

Trying to simplify this, in my opinion the possibilities of what McLuvin does in the draft will effect how Gruden handles Griffin-even if Mariota goes elsewhere. The kinds of offensive players Scot may draft will be influenced by his own Redskins game tape analysis, plus what Gruden says he needs or wants, and will be able to do with new player acquisitions. Scot M. will of course have to listen to Gruden but likewise, Gruden will have to listen to him.


Brief summary, or more likely my perception of how organizational power struggles work...

If at some point down the line a chasm develops and the FO must choose a winner between McCloughan and Gruden, Gruden will lose. Thus, Gruden is under a constraint now he hadn't had before.

I expect to see a somewhat different Gruden than last season.





P.S. My use of the word "simplify" above is not to be taken as a reflection on anyone else but my attempt to be as clear as I can about what I'm trying to say.

 

[Boone]

Yep. It's pretty clear that ultimately, the roster is McLovin's call. I expect that the more McLovin views Griffin, the more inclined he is to come to the same conclusion that Gruden appears to have come to already - that he isn't the long-term solution at QB. I would be very surprised if McLovin's assessment of last year's roster was any rosier than Gruden's (seeing that he's already begun gutting said roster and moving marginal and injury prone players on).

If there were to be any gulf's between their viewpoints though, McLovin's 'power' is limited. Allen (and probably Snyder) decides who the head coach is, ultimately. McLovin also has no sway in what kind of schemes the team will run. He can make recommendations, but ultimately those are coaching decisions. And that's a good thing - because McLovin's talent evaluation will be based largely on what identity Gruden and company want to establish. People can howl at the moon that we 'aren't using Griffin according to his talents', but if Gruden is determined to run a more conventional pocket-passing power running offense (and he likely is), he may have already decided Griffin can't effectively run it and McLovin is going to be looking for the guy that can. There's nothing at all wrong with that power structure - it's the power structure successful teams have had for a long time in the NFL.

How ironic would it be if it turns out that one of the reasons the Redskins brought in Scot McCloughan is because Gruden's assessment was that he couldn't win with the talent provided him, and that the Redskins organization needed a major scouting and player acquisition overhaul. I'm not saying Gruden played a role - but its possible, and it's the kind of possibility that fans typically don't even conceive of...It's certainly as likely a factor as bungled Bruce Allen press conference

 

[redskins26]

I think both are equally possible, personally.

Once you pants someone publicly, others in the organization are wary of risking the same treatment.

Different people respond to differnt things different ways if people respond positive in private then you handle it in private but griffen seems to be not that type of person

 

[fansince62]

I think lots of folks felt the public dressing down of Griffin was too harsh and not necessarily productive. I'm sure some players thought so too. But some are equating that to Gruden having zero leadership skills and not having the potential to be a good head coach. I haven't heard of any players being disgruntled with Gruden as a coach. The idea that we wouldn't have heard this through the rumor mongering DC media seems silly to me. Onyour second paragraph - amen!

we all have our sticking points: mine is Gruden. I can sit there and watch and listen. Some conclusions I have already come to:

- he won't be a Bill Walsh type who changes the paradigm

- he won't be a Joe Gibbs type who adjusts smartly both in tactics and strategy

- he doesn't have "presence"/gravitas..call it what you will. this may just be a TV thing

I personally find nothing interesting about Mr Gruden. whatever is the "there" quality isn't there.

if McL turns it around and Gruden uses the talent well and Barry et al implement the dominating type defense McL favors...we all get to celebrate! still won't change my attitude toward Gruden.

 

[servumtuum]

HogsHaven with some more insights from Scot M.

New Washington Redskins GM Scot McCloughan is at the Annual NFL Owners Meetings in Arizona this week and took the time to answer a few questions about the draft, quarterbacks, and building a championship team. Head Coach Jay Gruden is expected to talk to reporters tomorrow along with the other NFC coaches. McCloughan answered questions on a few of the "Smoke Screen" stories that have been floating around about the Redskins plans for this year's draft. He predictably confirmed that all the rumors are possibilities and anything can happen if it benefits the team.

Drafting Marcus Mariota if he's available at #5:


"You never have enough [quarterbacks]," McCloughan said. "When I was in Green Bay we had Brett Favre, who won three MVPs. Every year we drafted a Matt Hasselbeck and Aaron Brooks. It wasn't that early, but we still took quarterbacks."

Trading Down to acquire more picks:

"If it's a win for us, and it's going to make us stronger, no doubt about it. I'll take any phone calls. I cannot see us really moving up, but I can see us moving back. Not just in the first round, but [moving back] in the second, third or fourth round. I have a lot of other GM's that I'm really close with, that I've traded with before, and if I can add more young, good football players...definitely."

McCloughan on Robert Griffin III's 5th Year Option:

McCloughan on RG3's option, which must be picked up by May 3: "We've had some early discussion on it. We're still talking it through."
— Tarik El-Bashir (@TarikCSN) March 24, 2015

"Nobody's going to be handed a job from my standpoint, and I know Jay feels that way and I know Bruce [Allen, the team president] feels the same way," McCloughan said. "You have to earn it. That's what the NFL is about. Like I said, I don't have any ties with any of the players. I didn't draft them, besides the ones I signed in free agency, so I'm coming in here saying, 'Prove it to me. Prove to me that you deserve to be on the field.' That's the way it has to be in the NFL."

Building a Championship team:

"It comes down to best available player," said McCloughan, who earlier this month attended Mariota's Pro Day. "I'm walking in from the outside in here, saying 'Okay, I've been around a world championship team. I helped another one that made it there - didn't win it - I kind of have a feeling of what it's supposed to look like.'

And in San Fran and what we did in Seattle, we understand that we're not a real deep roster, so let's not just focus on a certain position, let's focus on the best football player because we're not just talking about Year 1, we're talking about Year 3, Year 5, and you want to be able to re-sign your own guys. You get to the second contracts. We were lucky enough to do that in San Fran and Seattle, and that's when things start rolling."

"I don't have any preconceived notions of, 'Well he's a really good guy,' or 'He did charity stuff.' Or 'he's good with whatever.' No. I'm walking in, I'm an outsider coming in, I don't know much about this, let's see it. Let's see the product on the field."

Analyzing Griffin and Cousins:

"With Kirk and Robert, they're both younger guys still. I've seen all the tape I can see on them, even going back a couple of years," McCloughan said. "Now, it's to the point where I need to see them in person. I need to see them in OTAs. I need to see them in minicamp. I need to see them in the offseason program, and just body language, who's a leader, who takes control.

I like what I see physically from both of them. They both have some excellent skills. But also, I've seen some inconsistencies.

Quarterbacks in a new system:

"But the system is not an easy system to walk into year one," McCloughan said. "When I was in Green Bay with Brett Favre, Mike Holmgren ran a similar system and that first year was really tough. For the quarterback there's so much stuff going on around them."

Competition throughout the roster:

"I keep telling him the one thing I want to preach and preach and preach, it's all about competition," McCloughan said. "It doesn't matter who's making the big money, any of that. From my standpoint, from the outside I want to see guys show up and consistently compete and the best man is going to win."

"It's not just the quarterback, it's the 10 guys around them," McCloughan said. "It's the defense, the special teams everyone coming together. I'm going to build that offense as good as I can for all 11. The quarterback is the most important guy, but the 10 around him can make his life much easier."

Terrance Knighton's 1-Year "Prove It" Deal:

McCloughan on Knighton's one year deal: "YoRedu prove yourself, I'll take care of you."
— John Keim (@john_keim) March 24, 2015

New OL Coach Bill Callahan and OL in the draft:

"He knows what kind of player he wants," McCloughan said. "We have a similar philosophy about big guys, smart guys, tough guys. We want to be able to run the ball, be able to pound the ball and get that D-line to want to quit and understand that when you play the Washington Redskins, we'll come at you no matter what.[/B]"

His Free Agency Strategy:

"We were like, let's get some good players at the right price,"

McCloughan said. "It's not, go out and sign one or two guys and think, 'OK, we're that close to being a playoff contending team.' We're not. We've got to start building and building. Age was important. Medical history was important, and the contract was important."

Article link: Scot McCloughan Talks About RGIII, Drafting Marcus Mariota, and Trading Down in Every Round - Hogs Haven

 

[Bulldog]

The one thing I don't like to hear about Griffin is that he works his body as hard as anyone in the league but carries a light notebook when it comes to being a student of the game.

For everyone's good we need to get over the thought Griffin will revert to 2012 form.

We need a new approach, one that combines his athletic ability with the rudiments of a sound pro style.

Gruden needs to change some of the play calling but Griffin has to execute some of the bread and butter NFL plays much better than he has to date.

 

[Elephant]

Gruden may be a dick (although I think that's arguable). While I don't like airing dirty laundry in public, I've pointed out before (to cricket chirps here) that not a single player has complained about Gruden's coaching style or leadership. NFL players, in my experience, are not generally hesitant to do so. So I think it's possible Gruden is doing a lot of good things behind the scenes and may just need to learn how to communicate more carefully to media. Even if Gruden is a dick, does that really explain why Griffin can't lead a successful drive and make good decisions consistently? I mean, Gruden must have some serious voodoo skills - a couple of harsh comments and he's completely stolen Robert's mojo.

Guess we'll find out down the road.

Of more interest to me going forward is ... have there been players, coaches or anyone else inside the building who has indicated Jay doesn't have the team's ear? Or that he's not a leader? If there have I'd honestly like to read them.

Also, am I mistaken that I think I recall reading, on more than one occasion, that players actually came to Jay and complained that Robert was killing them on the field?

I want to expound on this...listening to some of the former players on the radio and in interviews...they liked when Gruden called RG3 out. Those I heard, said that is the type of coach they want in the locker room. They supported Gruden's tactic. On top of it, like mentioned above...we didn't hear players on the team complaining, either.

I still maintain it was partly because Robert's incessant need to air things out on social media and the fact he stunk up the joint, but I also believe it was a play against Allen and Snyder. I think they were pressuring Gruden to start Robert because he sold more tix than Colt McCoy and Gruden used the media to cover his back.

I think the disagreement comes from management styles...when I managed people, I had no problem calling them out in front of their peers. You don't want me to expose your mistakes, don't make them. Some don't agree...but there are many different paths to success.

 

[fansince62]

I won't make the mistakes.

And if I don't like being publicly chastised I will find a way to undermine you and the organization in ways you will never, ever find out about. it's so easy to do it's laughable. the shaming approach just doesn't work in most normal societal settings....especially with 20 year olds. by the time individuals mature....they don't pay attention.

respecting the system and abiding by corporate value systems is a two way street - as we have seen in Skins-land a zillion times.

not conducive to retention over the long-haul - as has also been documented an additional zillion times. especially in settings where there is competition for scarce skillsets.

separate subject: we all need to get our stories straight: nope...we can't track what is going on internally with the team because the messaging is controlled and we really don't know what intentions and thinking truly might be; yup...we know what intentions and thinking are because we have an unquantified head count of statements of unknown content leaked through 3rd parties. I see this all the time on this board: don't like an idea? well...you don't know what's really going on behind closed doors. like what's going on or have a favored position? well....here's what we can infer from the street corner whispers about what's being said behind those same closed doors. facts and innuendo - uncovering the kernel of truth - are fun pursuits that, unfortunately, are consigned to an agenda driven media these days.

 

[Om]

I'm not very impressed with Ryan Clark's take, to be honest. Doesn't even hint at understanding or acknowledging the myriad things that have been discussed ad nauseam about Robert ... how the injuries compromised his ability to effectively run the "2012 offense" ... how defenses have adapted and forced dual-threat QB's to be effectively manage some basic NFL passing concepts, and how much he has struggled with them ... none of which are particularly in doubt or controversial.

It's the same argument we've been having here: is the real problem the QB or the coach? Which is a fair debate and arguable from either side. You'd just like to think an "insider" would have a little bit better sense of all that gray between the black and white.

Then again ... it is the media.

 

[fansince62]

yup....there's a learning curve. what should that be? apparently, for jay Gruden, it's 3-4 games.

in my opinion, btw, I don't think that it is either or. I think both Griffin and Gruden screwed the pooch.

in every venue of life problems surface. in my experience, almost nothing is impossible to over-come. the deciding points are the usual cast of villains: complexity, time required, available resources, cost, commitment/culture, etc., etc. folks have questioned Griffin's commitment. if the whispers are to be believed...with reason. IMO, per previous, Gruden hasn't been totally committed either. that's what "not my kinda QB" is codespeak for. others are free to see things differently. they are also free to assume the worst and accept that challenges should be addressed by walking away from them rather than solving them.

 

[fansince62]

I'm pretty much convinced RG3 is gone after next year, barring a playoff appearance. Unfortunately, with Gruden's guaranteed contract, we'll likely see him for at least two more years. :ugh:

I am not a big Gruden fan...duh! but with McL's savvy/help....he can win here. he's no dummy. from my pov...he just isn't blessed with greatness.

 

[stevenaa]

Was Gruden brought in to mask RG's flaw's or coach him to QB in a more traditional Offense? As OM said above, defenses have adjusted. QB's have to be able to make quick decisions and throw to spots from the pocket. Something RG has shown zero grasp of. He's nice and accurate when there's a century of time and he can throw to his receiver AFTER his receiver breaks open. But he has no feel for throwing to where the receiver will be before the receiver breaks. Not to mention his complete inability to elude while in the pocket. Those types of things are what is wanted from RG, and either he just can't get it, or he's not doing the work. That is the source of Gruden's frustration last year, and frankly that's not on Gruden at all. To say it maybe more plainly. Gruden was not brought in here to craft an offense RG can run. He was brought in to run his offense and Coach RG to run it. I find it hard to blame a coach for a player not learning what he's supposed to do. Many of you keep saying Gruden didn't do enough in play calling to make RG comfortable, all the while ignoring the fact that plays were called and RG did not look comfortable running them. His running was tentative and slow when he chose to run, which wasn't often.

I agree with El, that part of Gruden's public lambasting was wrestling control of the situation away from management. With McFixit now here, Grudens job got a lot easier in this regard. He'll have support in his assessment of RG's capabilities, assuming McFixit agrees, that isn't based on picks spent and tickets sold. He'll have someone in his camp that will give a football grade based on performance alone. McFixit will remove all of the pressure by Allen and Snyder. I think McFixit has sent that message to RG pretty clearly in his few comments to the media. The comments that he controls the roster and that none of these guys are his guys and they will have to put up is a shot fired. Any good will from 2012 is gone. Perform now or move along. They've also tried to take some pressure off of RG with Grudens recent comments that he is the starter and will have every chance to succeed. IE. Hit the books and don't worry about anything else.

 

[Om]

I'm surprised at how quickly you've bought into Gruden's infallibility.

Clark is the first guy to talk about what happened on the team last year, and he's immediately dismissed as a 'media guy.' Come on, OM, he's calling it like he saw it. And, the first voice we hear that isn't under the control of the organization has put some blame on Gruden.

It sounds pretty reasonable to me.


And, as we were all told, Gruden was here to fix RG3...not give up on him by the end of training camp.

I gather you weren't following the discussion yesterday. At no time have I even hinted that Gruden is without some blame for last year's 4-12 cluster****.

What I have said is that I believe Robert's biggest problem so far has been Robert, not his coaching.

 

[stevenaa]

I won't make the mistakes.

And if I don't like being publicly chastised I will find a way to undermine you and the organization in ways you will never, ever find out about. it's so easy to do it's laughable. the shaming approach just doesn't work in most normal societal settings....especially with 20 year olds. by the time individuals mature....they don't pay attention.

respecting the system and abiding by corporate value systems is a two way street - as we have seen in Skins-land a zillion times.

not conducive to retention over the long-haul - as has also been documented an additional zillion times. especially in settings where there is competition for scarce skillsets.

Like most things in life there are no absolutes. Some guys don't respond to the normal, most accepted methods of correction behind the scenes. And that isn't a management failure. Employees fail despite the best efforts of their bosses. You can lambast the public thrashing, and I agree it's not the right mode of operation, but you have to allow the possibility that they tried all the normal things behind the scenes and could not get through to RG. If Gruden goes on to continue to air out things publically, I'll have a problem with it. The Parcells method of management can work for a short duration, but after 3 years or so it's gets old and ineffective. RG is an incredible talent. One of the top athletes in the league. He should have shown improvements if through nothing more than his own efforts despite any coaching short comings. That is why many of us put the responsibility squarely on his shoulders. Not because we believe he can't do it, but because we believe he's so talented he can't not do it, and the fact that he can't is not about inability, it's about not doing the right things.

 

[fansince62]

Was Gruden brought in to mask RG's flaw's or coach him to QB in a more traditional Offense? As OM said above, defenses have adjusted.

not picking on you....but that's a cliché. defenses can adjust to any offensive strategy

QB's have to be able to make quick decisions and throw to spots from the pocket. Something RG has shown zero grasp of.

that's blatantly false. he had to read and recognize in 2012. the differentiator these days is how he has adapted to a more conventional pocket role. we all know it has been slow/questionable caveated by how f'd up the o-line has been. folks should know that Colt McCoy also has a high sack ratio per game.

He's nice and accurate when there's a century of time and he can throw to his receiver AFTER his receiver breaks open. But he has no feel for throwing to where the receiver will be before the receiver breaks. Not to mention his complete inability to elude while in the pocket.

again....inaccurate exaggeration. Griffin can run, has run and done well doing so when under pressure. the more accurate observation is that he makes the decision to do so too quickly at times.

Those types of things are what is wanted from RG, and either he just can't get it, or he's not doing the work. That is the source of Gruden's frustration last year, and frankly that's not on Gruden at all.

per others...thank God you have insight into Gruden's thinking!!!

To say it maybe more plainly. Gruden was not brought in here to craft an offense RG can run. He was brought in to run his offense and Coach RG to run it.

calling BS on this one. we all know from day 1...before the Savior was signed..that his past as a QB was specifically attractive to this FO and what he was partially hired to fix. that and Tampa Bay nepotism of course All in the Family, etc., etc.

I find it hard to blame a coach for a player not learning what he's supposed to do. Many of you keep saying Gruden didn't do enough in play calling to make RG comfortable, all the while ignoring the fact that plays were called and RG did not look comfortable running them. His running was tentative and slow when he chose to run, which wasn't often.

ok....so folks see the same phenomena differently.

I agree with El, that part of Gruden's public lambasting was wrestling control of the situation away from management. With McFixit now here, Grudens job got a lot easier in this regard. He'll have support in his assessment of RG's capabilities, assuming McFixit agrees, that isn't based on picks spent and tickets sold.

and you know this how? that's just anti-Snyder lore absorbed by an unreflective portion of the fanbase. could the fact that Cousins was a pick machine and McCoy a career loser also highly susceptible to injury have anything to do with outcomes?

He'll have someone in his camp that will give a football grade based on performance alone. McFixit will remove all of the pressure by Allen and Snyder. I think McFixit has sent that message to RG pretty clearly in his few comments to the media.

wrong. McL was sending a message to the entire team. he's not stupid enough to enmesh himself in any one player's set of outcomes. he is doing what all real leaders who know what they are doing do - setting the standard that everyone must follow/achieve...not cherry-picking (the surest way to disrupt a team)

The comments that he controls the roster and that none of these guys are his guys and they will have to put up is a shot fired.

no it's not. it's a statement of fact that is inherent in the situation: his role, what he was brought in to accomplish, the fact that he didn't draft any of these players. once he drafts folks...they dynamic changes. watch. development time will factor into the equation - as opposed to now or never. again...he's not an idiot - he knows cap and dollars are part of football. he is doing exactly what good leaders do - setting the standard. competition and performance are what count. I love what he is doing - just not personalizing his approach like some around here seem to prefer.

Any good will from 2012 is gone. Perform now or move along. They've also tried to take some pressure off of RG with Grudens recent comments that he is the starter and will have every chance to succeed.


your interpretation. there has been ample speculation that the move was made to alleviate a circus atmosphere once training camp begins. I fond this part of the discussion trivial. I do agree that Griffen has reached the end of the run - he either succeeds or doesn't - even if Gruden is a mediocrity.


IE. Hit the books and don't worry about anything else.

like whether the rest of the offense matures also?

and so it goes

 

[Boone]

Al - messageboard etiquette please. Can we not quote a page long post followed by a 4 word reply?

 

[fansince62]

Al - messageboard etiquette please. Can we not quote a page long post followed by a 4 word reply?

wilco. response came off a little harsher than I intended. we're all a little "high pitched" when it comes to Griffin/Gruden.

Will monitor length in future posts.

Just so we're all regrouped on the same ship - we are going to be a better team this upcoming season regardless. and that's something to be happy about!