PFT: Washington may be in the Mariota business

[Boone]

I know you aren't attacking. we can all disagree, argue forcefully for our views - and realize it's just a game and not life!

Tom...you ignorant bastage! Just kidding!

1) Folks act like Lewis had nothing to do with what unfolded in Cincy.

2) I didn't find that offense so spectacular. per previous, it routinely fell on its face in the playoffs. why would that be? the talent? or coaches being out thought and out-strategized by opposing coaches?

not you...but the meme here has to be consistent: either we hired this guy who was wonderfully successful at professional football or not. we can't say he's a proven winner BUUUUUUUUT he's a rookie coach and so is granted special dispensation for all his bad decisions...he's just "learning".

let's call it what it was: because of recent history the Skins were never in contention for best of breed among coaching candidates. Allen used the brothahood of the ya ya bucs to rope in his Tampa bud. not unusual in the NFL - but let's be honest about what transpired.

I don't favor Gruden as a coach - I don't see the elements of a real leader in him and I think he will be out-smarted by the Chip Kelleys of the world on a regular basis. that's why I have elevated hopes that McL's skills at finding top tier talent can overcome Gruden's limitations.

sure, here's hoping OJT eventually enables our project HC to become the success he was always meant to be!

I'm not a fan of a lot of what I've seen from Gruden to date, but that being said, you sound a little over the top in your dire assessments regarding Gruden Al. He is an NFL head coach with exactly one season under his belt. He inherited an absolute mess. It's too early to call him a failure, as much as it is to call Saint Scot our savior.

 

[fansince62]

Boone...I'm not calling him a failure...any more than a success. I have focused mostly on what I see as character and leadership short-comings. If a combination of our Gruden version maturing and McL's vision and talent staffing skills work out - so much the better.

what can I say? I was a strong supporter early on. his performance last season as a coach and leader really turned me off. hard to explain - I know real leaders when I see em. this guy just seems to be missing some critical ingredients. either I'm right or I'm wrong. time will tell.

 

[Boone]

You are implying he will fail. I am just suggesting that all we've seen is the public persona and some of the obvious decisions he's made. That's just a minute window into what's acts going on. There may be a lot of positive we just aren't privy to. I have said repeatedly he needs to up his game - but he is a rookie head coach heading into season 2. That calls for some patience and perspective.

 

[fansince62]

You are implying he will fail. I am just suggesting that all we've seen is the public persona and some of the obvious decisions he's made. That's just a minute window into what's acts going on. There may be a lot of positive we just aren't privy to. I have said repeatedly he needs to up his game - but he is a rookie head coach heading into season 2. That calls for some patience and perspective.

the team has basically been making all the major decisions for him. his staff, the roster, etc. to me that suggests someone way greener than any of us were led to believe. rather like a player with "potential" who has to be groomed for several years.

he is what he is. let's hope he finds his way in the coaching wilderness. more importantly....now that management realizes the mistake it made....let's hope the successful coaches they have surrounded him with are delegated the proper authorities and can do the requisite player training and big picture strategizing that leverages the talent McL is going to provide over the next 2-3 years.

 

[Cycleans]

I don't think a fair assessment can be made on Gruden's potential as a head coach. He was offered a job, he said the right things, the job he accepted was certainly harder than he may have hoped for. I really think the ankle injury to Griffin put him in a bad spot...That's not making an excuse. Those are the realities further complicated by the success Cousins showed early on. Every press conference was dominated with are you ready to move on from RG3 and start Cousins?
Then Kirk turned into Tony Romo on a bad day...Talk about complicated situations, that's tough for any coach. Gruden didn't pull us out of rut but I hope he learned a bunch. I'm still on board with Gruden, I like the straight talk and brutal honesty but if you end up with less than 8 wins there isn't much to say. Had he gotten us to 8 wins?

 

[Boone]

the team has basically been making all the major decisions for him. his staff, the roster, etc. to me that suggests someone way greener than any of us were led to believe. rather like a player with "potential" who has to be groomed for several years.

This is a major assumption you are making. We have no idea to what extent Gruden himself is making some of these decisions, or driving them via feedback. Last year was his first chance to really see what he did and didn't have, which players fit his vision and scheme, etc... Again, I agree that to date he has not impressed. But I think we fans paint a mental image of what's transporting behind the scenes that is flawed and possibly even inaccurate.

 

[Henry]

This discussion is something out of the mid-90s. I swear, you replace 'Gruden' with 'Turner' and it's the exact same conversation.

If players aren't executing awesomely drawn-up plays, guess who's fault that is?

It's on the Head Coach.

He's not the OC. He has to manage more than X's and O's. He has to lead. And he has been awful at that. His handling of Griffin last year isn't some footnote. It's a MAJOR red flag, especially if we are now finding out that other players, in some cases pro-bowl calibre players, aren't doing their jobs and are botching plays on a routine basis.

 

[Om]

Personally, I think passing judgment and/or deciding what kind of head coach Jay Gruden will be in Washington, based on his handling of a rookie season dealing with the ossifying heap of camel crap he inherited, is premature to the point of absurdity.

Which, of course, flies directly in the face of what drives message board culture.

So never mind.

 

[Henry]

Well, I don't know what kind of coach he will ultimately be. Maybe he'll be awesome.

I, however, am not going to assume Gruden's Redskins are a hair away from greatness because some plays look nice on paper but the players couldn't execute them. Again, that sounds like Turner-speak to me.

That is all.

 

[Om]

Has anyone suggested that?

 

[Chris]

Has anyone suggested that?

Maybe...

Yes. I believe this team is a lot closer to rolling than many believe. You won't find many analysts critical of the play-calling.

We just need a few players to execute better.

 

[fansince62]

Personally, I think passing judgment and/or deciding what kind of head coach Jay Gruden will be in Washington, based on his handling of a rookie season dealing with the ossifying heap of camel crap he inherited, is premature to the point of absurdity.

Which, of course, flies directly in the face of what drives message board culture.

So never mind.

hmmmm.....

you're right! new statute: from this time forward no inferences, generalizations or observations will be allowed until a minimum of 5 years are in the hopper. the future is an unknown and the past and present have no connection to that future.

in a more serious vein....I would quibble with the notion that the choices are between not thinking and absurdity. and I would reinforce that idea by noting there is a difference between forecasting and pattern mapping, between working with observable phenomena and giving up because the full data set isn't available........

 

[Om]

hmmmm.....

you're right! new statute: from this time forward no inferences, generalizations or observations will be allowed until a minimum of 5 years are in the hopper. the future is an unknown and the past and present have no connection to that future.

If by that you mean you'll consider allowing more than one season before trying to convince others you have any clue what kind of head coach a rookie head coach will become, as in the case our rookie head coach and the disaster of a franchise he inherited, you're right.

in a more serious vein....I would quibble with the notion that the choices are between not thinking and absurdity. and I would reinforce that idea by noting there is a difference between forecasting and pattern mapping, between working with observable phenomena and giving up because the full data set isn't available........

You're also right that if those were the choices, that would be bad.

Establishing workable common frames of reference and working definitions for said subjective "observable phenomena" would be the opposite of that--as in "good."

We should get right on that.

 

[fansince62]

If by that you mean you'll consider allowing more than one season before trying to convince others you have any clue what kind of head coach a rookie head coach will become, as in the case our rookie head coach and the disaster of a franchise he inherited, you're right.


You're also right that if those were the choices, that would be bad.

Establishing workable common frames of reference and working definitions for said subjective "observable phenomena" would be the opposite of that--as in "good."

We should get right on that.

I know I don't believe in excuses and rationalizations. and I'll depart this thread with the idea that in all walks of life....accountability matters. that is fundamental to the integrity of an organization, a culture, a critical component of leadership and, finally, success.

btw....the options being framed here are, to borrow a term, absurd. to wit: don't frame an opinion based on what you can observe because enough water hasn't passed under the bridge and you are not a member of the inner circle. that defies the whole course of human thought: folks work with the information and tools on hand. as the information base and tools improve so can the theories, hypotheses, observations, conclusions, etc., etc. yea...Gruden is a newbie. so what? I'll work with what I have been able to observe - and bounce it off of 30+ years of experience in other endeavors. if I'm wrong...I end up eating crow. won't be the first time...likely not the last.

 

[Om]

Okay Al, I think I got it.

Accountability is a good thing.

Comfort levels with rendering public judgments based on limited subjective data vary by individuals.

 

[Boone]

This discussion is something out of the mid-90s. I swear, you replace 'Gruden' with 'Turner' and it's the exact same conversation.

If players aren't executing awesomely drawn-up plays, guess who's fault that is?

It's on the Head Coach.

He's not the OC. He has to manage more than X's and O's. He has to lead. And he has been awful at that. His handling of Griffin last year isn't some footnote. It's a MAJOR red flag, especially if we are now finding out that other players, in some cases pro-bowl calibre players, aren't doing their jobs and are botching plays on a routine basis.

I feel like this is a little bit of a driveby post Henry. I think there is wide agreement that a) Gruden botched the handling of the QBs and b) wasn't great at any other aspect of head coaching duties (including play calling) either.

Where most of the contentiousness seems to lie is if year 1 means Gruden will fail or doesn't have what it takes to be a good head coach. I've been as critical as anyone of Gruden - but I think that's a pretty unfair assessment to make. Whether it proved to be the case with Turner isn't relevant IMHO.

 

[Bulldog]

The difference is Casserly stopped bringing in capable talent in the draft and those Norv teams were poorly built.

He was a mediocre coach heading up a team of mediocre players.

If Gruden continues to stumble and McCloughan is bringing in good players then Jay's lack of ability will be that much more obvious and the case to fire him that much greater.

 

[Henry]

I feel like this is a little bit of a driveby post Henry.

This is true. It was a total drive-by.

My apologies, I haven't really been seriously participating much lately.

Where most of the contentiousness seems to lie is if year 1 means Gruden will fail or doesn't have what it takes to be a good head coach. I've been as critical as anyone of Gruden - but I think that's a pretty unfair assessment to make. Whether it proved to be the case with Turner isn't relevant IMHO.

Dunno. In the games I watched last year (admittedly it wasn't a ton) the team looked an awful lot like a Turner-coached team. Just had the same vibe to it. And now I'm hearing the same excuses being made for him. I think even with first year head coaches one can get at least a sense of whether or not that coach knows what he is doing and whether or not he will ultimately be successful. My sense with Gruden is that he is in way over his head. I'm not advocating firing the guy or anything, but so far I do not see much that is encouraging.

I may yet be proven wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Boone]

I do the driveby more often than I should, mostly because during the day I am occasionally reading on my phone and doing a quick reply. Nothing to apologize for - I just wanted to clarify the argument. At the end of the day, I think we mostly all agree, Gruden had a disappointing first team. Were it not for the *extra drama* he ordered up with his year one fries, I suspect we'd all be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. In truth, I'm lecturing myself as much as I am fan, because I saw a lot of what he and you saw, and it's discouraging. But I have to remind myself, it really was year 1. I've made mistakes in leadership roles and was able to learn from them. I am hoping he can.

 

[fansince62]

Okay Al, I think I got it.

Accountability is a good thing.

Comfort levels with rendering public judgments based on limited subjective data vary by individuals.

doesn't mean I don't luv ya Sir Bard!

thanks for allowing the wiggle room - duly noted and respected.