PFT: Gruden says the “clock’s ticking” on Griffin

[stevenaa]

Jay Gruden

Jan 2014

Then he goes and gets injured again in a ridiculous manner. It's clear he has to develop real NFL pro passing skills. At least to a capable level that can be mixed with his other strengths. If he can't read defenses and make quick throws from the pocket to the right receiver, his career is doomed no matter how talented he is in running the option. He'd just be another Vick. That's not what any of us believed his ceiling was or is.

 

[MikeSr619]

Just playing devil's advocate here... Dalton's having his least productive season yet and it happens to be the 1st year he didn't have Gruden. Absolutely not saying it's the end all, seeing as it's 2/3 of a season, but I just wanted to point that out.


I don't like the QB Guru mantra either... IF he can continue to get 300+ yds, 2+ TD, <2 INT per game from McCoy, then I do think he deserves a little bit of credit for getting production from a less then elite QB. I hope he can find a way to get Griffin to that same level of production but only time will tell, because Griffin is the one who is supposed to be at that level. Not saying it's all on Griffin either... He's on this team so he's Gruden's responsibility.

the year is different, Jerome Simpson is gone, as is Green-Ellis...many things have changed on that team. I don't think that one guy can take claim to all that goes well on the offense unless his name is Peyton.

also, those stats would look nice if they came with a W. But they come with a L. I feel when Colt is driving to the end zone that same feeling I had with Grossman...its either going to be feast or famine.

 

[MikeSr619]

Then he goes and gets injured again in a ridiculous manner. It's clear he has to develop real NFL pro passing skills. At least to a capable level that can be mixed with his other strengths. If he can't read defenses and make quick throws from the pocket to the right receiver, his career is doomed no matter how talented he is in running the option. He'd just be another Vick. That's not what any of us believed his ceiling was or is.

do you think Cooley's injury to his knee was ridiculous?

and what are pro passing skills? Throwing accurately? Check. Throwing accurately deep? Check.

What chances does he have to read a defense? 2.3 seconds? Once again last night I saw Romo have between 6 and 7 in the pocket and just watch plays develop. You can't read a D when you can't even get the ball in to your hands before having to worry about getting hit. Its the ol Barry Sanders rule.

 

[Primus Porcus]

the year is different, Jerome Simpson is gone, as is Green-Ellis...many things have changed on that team. I don't think that one guy can take claim to all that goes well on the offense unless his name is Peyton.

also, those stats would look nice if they came with a W. But they come with a L. I feel when Colt is driving to the end zone that same feeling I had with Grossman...its either going to be feast or famine.

I know, other factors in place. Its a very short sample size as well, but the dropoff is there. Much like us, I dont think it's the ONLY reason, but it could be a factor. With us, I cannot say Gruden is the only reason Griff is struggling. It very well may be a factor.

I also agree with you about the W vs L when those stats come up, but it's more of an endorsement of execution then it is an endorsement of effectiveness... if that makes any sense at all. The plays are there to be performed, the options are there to be effective, but even in garbage time, it's not getting executed with Griff. I can't imagine Gruden has written him off, and we will never TRULY know. The whole situation has been a gargled mess, I agree..

 

[stevenaa]

I think your are right on those points Mike. I just don't see that as the only cause. Gruden mishandled things for sure. Maybe his change in addressing how McCoy is doing in practice is him learning from his mistakes. Maybe he soured on Griffin after the injury, doesn't like what he's seeing and wants him gone. I'm actually ok with that from a coach if he believes the player is not going to work out. I'd rather he take that stand and get it over with. I don't think he needs to be worried about the picks or cost of RG. He only has to make a simple decision. yes or no, and go with it. Maybe this is what our screwed up organization wanted. Someone to come in and make a decision and if decided against, move RG out. Be the bad guy. However, I still think it is telling that RG is the backup and not 3rd string behind Kirk. Kirk does fine coming off the bench. His head goes south when he knows he's the guy. I think if RG demonstrates his head is on straight, buckles down in whatever way Gruden wants, and takes the backup roll seriously, he competes for the starting job next year.

 

[MikeSr619]

he had MN and SF to go up against while McCoy went up against a Colts D that were ahead by so far they could play match up laid back D.

I also am not sure why Cousins and Griffin are both failing and it not pointing back to coaching. They were both good QBs in 2012 and Cousins was good in 2013....yet now they are both benched and Cousins isn't even activated for game time!! That is just completely insane to me.

All in all...I think this: We need a QB coach next year, Griffin needs to be given a legitimate shot along with McCoy and Cousins to be the starter, and WE NEED OFFENSIVE LINEMAN!!!!

also, I dont disagree with you guys either...I think we are all just flustered about all of it. Its making it hard for me to wear my HAIL TO THE R WORD shirt in public now.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Wont find any argument from me there

 

[stevenaa]

do you think Cooley's injury to his knee was ridiculous?

and what are pro passing skills? Throwing accurately? Check. Throwing accurately deep? Check.

What chances does he have to read a defense? 2.3 seconds? Once again last night I saw Romo have between 6 and 7 in the pocket and just watch plays develop. You can't read a D when you can't even get the ball in to your hands before having to worry about getting hit. Its the ol Barry Sanders rule.

Pro passing skills are properly reading defenses pre-snap. And that is not the same as Read Option. He needs to make decisions faster. He needs to understand when to hit the hot read. You don't need 6-7 seconds in the pocket, that is not the norm. There's plenty of times where he has enough time to get the ball out and doesn't. Right now his confidence is shot and he's not doing anything well. That may be on Gruden. But ultimately, RG is responsible for RG. He has to show some development that indicates he's studying and learning. Comments about learning the terminology are concerning. Either he isn't studying correctly or just can't get it, or Gruden is lying. It ultimately comes back to what we can all agree on. This is one screwed up franchise, and all of this stems from complete mismanagement of the team. Get a proper GM making the decisions and running things, and this all goes away in a hurry, IMO.

 

[GSF]

do you think Cooley's injury to his knee was ridiculous?

and what are pro passing skills? Throwing accurately? Check. Throwing accurately deep? Check.

What chances does he have to read a defense? 2.3 seconds? Once again last night I saw Romo have between 6 and 7 in the pocket and just watch plays develop. You can't read a D when you can't even get the ball in to your hands before having to worry about getting hit. Its the ol Barry Sanders rule.

Except that McCoy is making the reads behind the same line. I agree with you 100% that the line is a huge problem, but RG3 has got to get that ball out. I will say though that the hits his has been taking behind that line for the last 3 years is probably why his confidence is so bad.

 

[GSF]

Anybody remember this guy(lol at the pic):

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...eleased-from-prison-in-montana-222627112.html

 

[MikeSr619]

Except that McCoy is making the reads behind the same line. I agree with you 100% that the line is a huge problem, but RG3 has got to get that ball out. I will say though that the hits his has been taking behind that line for the last 3 years is probably why his confidence is so bad.

He is? He threw a pick in the end zone against the Cowbums and then almost threw the same pick AGAIN last week that Roberts had to block. Then he DID throw a pick but it was called back due to a defensive hold. But Garcon was trying to go deep and McCoy was throwing behind him.

He is also hesitating just like Griffin, dumping it off just like Griffin does as well.

 

[fansince62]

All of that and you grab onto an eye roll? RG has definitely provided some eye roll moments. There is a significant list of RG shortcomings there that many of us have been saying since the beginning of last season. You'd have to be blind to not see his shortcomings.

Poor footwork
Poor reading of defense
Poor pocket presence
Slow decision making
Too much focus on marketing and not enough on football

These are all things many of us have been harping on, and now you see the coach probably has the same concerns and you dismiss them out of hand? A coaches job is very much to judge his players on work ethic, talent, skill set, attitude etc.... I'd say Shanahan had the same concerns and that led to his first benching.

Why do you assume Gruden hasn't been working with him? Maybe Grudens frustration is that he has been working with him and he's either not getting it, or is not doing what's necessary.


We've had 2 coaches with reputations of being good for QB's bench RG. At what point does some blame get put on the common factor here?

1) "Many of you" weren't harping on this in 2012. You were drinking your beers and high fiving.

2) His skills have declined. that said, "many of you" make it seem like what we saw against Tampa was what we saw earlier in his career. that is, forgive me, horse manure. it's frankly dishonest or inattentive to detail. moreover, as usual, it is presented out of context.

3) We've had two coaches...and the only common factor is Griffin? are you kidding me? that's the depth of the analysis here? Let's stretch the imagination here and think of some other commonalities....it's not that hard. Shanahan, btw, is a mixed bag when it comes to QB development - Elway was already there and the man when he arrived...and I'd hardly qualify Dalton as championship material.

4) How wld you know abt focus? You have no idea other than the contradictory media stories.

Here's a commonality I can think of: absolutely pathetic football no matter who stands behind center. this suggests to me that causes run much deeper. this suggests to me that there are larger forces in play that are undermining the team and Griffin. this isn't only a failure of Griffin...it's a failure of an organization,, a coaching staff and a myopic fanbase.

 

[fansince62]

Hired under false pretenses.

yup.......

 

[fansince62]

Pro passing skills are properly reading defenses pre-snap. And that is not the same as Read Option. He needs to make decisions faster. He needs to understand when to hit the hot read. You don't need 6-7 seconds in the pocket, that is not the norm. There's plenty of times where he has enough time to get the ball out and doesn't. Right now his confidence is shot and he's not doing anything well. That may be on Gruden. But ultimately, RG is responsible for RG. He has to show some development that indicates he's studying and learning. Comments about learning the terminology are concerning. Either he isn't studying correctly or just can't get it, or Gruden is lying. It ultimately comes back to what we can all agree on. This is one screwed up franchise, and all of this stems from complete mismanagement of the team. Get a proper GM making the decisions and running things, and this all goes away in a hurry, IMO.

this is closer to ground truth.

btw...out of curiosity....did Gruden change the terminology when he installed his system? I return to theme...he executed everything you list at one time or another. now, everything seems to have collapsed at the same time. why is that?

 

[stevenaa]

this is closer to ground truth.

btw...out of curiosity....did Gruden change the terminology when he installed his system? I return to theme...he executed everything you list at one time or another. now, everything seems to have collapsed at the same time. why is that?

I would think terminology changed with Gruden. That would seem a normal thing to happen.

Oh I think everything has been collapsing since the end of 2012 and Grudens done nothing to slow the decline and probably much to hurry it along. And I don't know if that's good or bad in the long run. It certainly sucks right now. I think we all agree the problem is at the top. Where many disagree is in how much blame lies on RG for his play and how much on coaching and organizational dysfuncion. My contention is that even with all of the dysfunction, RG is too smart and too athletic to not be further along. Even with the injuries. Now, maybe it is all a matter of confidence, but it didn't just get shaky this year. He didn't look confident or sure of himself last year either. In 2012 he was doing what he's done his whole career, so it is not surprising he was confident and in command. Now he's out of his comfort zone, and I'm sure that also plays into it. In the end all we have is a bucket load of conjecture. We don't have a clue what has transpired behind the curtains. RG, Gruden and the rest of this organization share in the blame to one extent or another. In the end we're still in a pickle.

 

[Primus Porcus]

I would think terminology changed with Gruden. That would seem a normal thing to happen.

Oh I think everything has been collapsing since the end of 2012 and Grudens done nothing to slow the decline and probably much to hurry it along. And I don't know if that's good or bad in the long run. It certainly sucks right now. I think we all agree the problem is at the top. Where many disagree is in how much blame lies on RG for his play and how much on coaching and organizational dysfuncion. My contention is that even with all of the dysfunction, RG is too smart and too athletic to not be further along. Even with the injuries. Now, maybe it is all a matter of confidence, but it didn't just get shaky this year. He didn't look confident or sure of himself last year either. In 2012 he was doing what he's done his whole career, so it is not surprising he was confident and in command. Now he's out of his comfort zone, and I'm sure that also plays into it. In the end all we have is a bucket load of conjecture. We don't have a clue what has transpired behind the curtains. RG, Gruden and the rest of this organization share in the blame to one extent or another. In the end we're still in a pickle.

THIS! I have struggled trying to articulate this.. thank you.

 

[Chris]

So, SNAFU as usual.

 

[Cycleans]

hindsight is 20/20...I recall around mid season 2012, I took a poll on this board about having the opportunity how many of us would trade back for the picks. I didn't word it well but as I recall very few people would have nixed the deal. It doesn't seem fair to wipe it all away and question it today.

I agree CT, but remember it was Shanahan who took part in evaluating RG too. In retrospect we gave up too much for a talent that was years away from operating an NFL pro offense. Pile on the injury and mishandling of that and it's just snowballed out of control. Had he not been injured, we may have been able to ride his Option skills to more successful seasons while he learned the other facets on the job. It just didn't work that way, and now the Option is understood and can be defensed much better than in 2012 and is not a viable option in the same way. And I don't think he's retained the speed and elusiveness to run it the same way. His only option for success is to learn the Pro Pass game within which we can mix in Option plays that he can run like numerous other teams now do.

 

[fansince62]

I would think terminology changed with Gruden. That would seem a normal thing to happen.

Oh I think everything has been collapsing since the end of 2012 and Grudens done nothing to slow the decline and probably much to hurry it along. And I don't know if that's good or bad in the long run. It certainly sucks right now. I think we all agree the problem is at the top. Where many disagree is in how much blame lies on RG for his play and how much on coaching and organizational dysfuncion. My contention is that even with all of the dysfunction, RG is too smart and too athletic to not be further along. Even with the injuries. Now, maybe it is all a matter of confidence, but it didn't just get shaky this year. He didn't look confident or sure of himself last year either. In 2012 he was doing what he's done his whole career, so it is not surprising he was confident and in command. Now he's out of his comfort zone, and I'm sure that also plays into it. In the end all we have is a bucket load of conjecture. We don't have a clue what has transpired behind the curtains. RG, Gruden and the rest of this organization share in the blame to one extent or another. In the end we're still in a pickle.

that's a good answer.

I can live with the thought that we might have different prescriptions on how the situation should be fixed.

 

[Cycleans]

I think Griffin is in a bad spot because Gruden is in the same spot. The fan base is tired of the jibberish...we want to see results. If a team is 3-8 or whatever. We've endured 2 seasons of this. It's damn near impossible to explain it away. Eyes are looking at the starting QB and his backup in every case. Coaches are on shaky ground as well. Regardless of the team. If you are high profile it's even worse. Cutler and Trestmen are in the same boat. I believe the same can be said for Carolina and Atlanta. Jets, etc. If we are even close to a .500 team Griffin probably buys more time. Those last 3 games Griffin played were Tebow bad.