PFT: Gruden says the “clock’s ticking” on Griffin

[Primus Porcus]

it should be obvious by now that it becomes progressively harder to read offenses when your arse is getting pounded every play. the sham argument abt the other QBs not being subject to the same poor o-line play/sacks (which was always weak to the degree that it neglected picks) was put to rest this past weekend.

the observation that the shift to a new system under live play is accurate: Griffin played very little in the preseason and only 4 games this season under less than stellar conditions. watching film. slow mo practice is nothing compared to live play - why just look at our sorry arse secondary. come to thiok of it...why not? don't hear folks really zooming in on this play in the same way (i.e., sack em...they have had time and are not studying). in fact, I'm onboard with you if the principle is applied across the board. from where I sit, about half the team can be whittled down/shipped off based on the same criteria applied to Griffin. somehow, magically, these other players who can't execute their jobs are salvageable. Murphy can't passrush if his llife depended on it- a much simpler task than QB'ing - but somehow he can learn!

in the end....I get the dynamic of giving up early on a player out of context - it's a DC fandom legacy afterall. what seems problematic is the superficial analysis on how to fix things, viable alternatives (vice patches)...and context on the ways multiple factors inter-act to produce the slovenly football we have been subjected to for two straight years....regardless of who is QB'ing. Put griffin behind a decent line, provide some good coaching and a stable system and my bet is he blossoms. I'm hoping that is what eventually happens when he is picked up by Philly or dallass.

I never once made mention that the other QBs are not subject to the same poor O-line play/sacks. In fact the entire time we've all been having this conversation I have been very critical of the play of the O-line. The play action on 1st down after the INT was the perfect example. McCoy drops back and immediately looks to the left side where Jackson was matched up 1 on 1. Jackson got behind the defender and before McCoy could pull the trigger the pocket was gone. The read was correct. THAT is on the O-Line. No question. In the game vs TB when we were attempting to drive down the field. Griffin drops back and play actions to Morris. Jackson on his right side is man to man and breaks open. Griffin doesn't even look that way. He then scrambles to his right trying to avoid the rush and misses Niles Paul in the flat throwing it at his feet.

If you want to make the argument about the time on the field in live fire situations... McCoy has played 2.5 games in this system and has been making the correct reads. While it might have been in garbage time, he's also posted 350+, 3 TDs, 0 INTs (SHOULD have been 1, he got lucky).


This is not an endorsement for McCoy to be the future. It's simply drawing a comparison about a qb who CAN make the reads, and a qb who CAN'T make the reads, both behind the same O-Line. We ABSOLUTELY need help at O-line I've never disputed that. I also face palmed at least 2 times in pivotal moments when Alf was lined up 1 on 1 in pass protection. Whoever is responsible for that, whether it be a missed assignment on O-Line, a horrible schemed play, or a misread of pass pro from the center, it shouldnt have happened. NO DOUBT. I've never said Griffin was THE problem, just that his inability to execute the things needed for an NFL QB on a fundamental level is a major problem... among others.

 

[CounterTrey]

This is where my round hole square peg argumnet comes in ST. McCoy and Cousins have been in pro style drop back O's for many years and have developed areas that become second nature. Conversely Griffin has been in a totally different type of system his entire football life and has NOT developed the skillset needed for those things to be second nature and make transitioning to Gruden's offense smoother. he's developed other things and strengths. It's something that should have been seen from the getgo and adjusted to. ie putting in a system that has a LOT more R.O. characteristics than a 3 step drop back O. The fact that we once again stubbornly are trying to force what we want this kid to be instead of molding him into what he could be based on his strengths just reinforces the notion that this entire team top to bottom is a mess and has no sensible direction.

 

[MikeSr619]

Why bring in a coach to coach a player the way he isn't used to playing instead of adjusting both?

Griffin clearly is trying to adjust to the pocket but gruden can't seem to play to griffins strengths at all. He doesn't even call shotgun for the guy! It feels almost personal in nature from the way he handles everything with Robert

 

[McD5]

“The good news is that I think that Jay Gruden is one of the guys that understands quarterback play in this league,” Young said. “That’s unusual. There’s not 32 great places for quarterbacks in the league. My opinion is, since Mike [Shanahan] got there, and now Jay, both of them are great spots for quarterbacks.

I've felt that way about Gruden for a lot of years now. And seeing all of the experts agree is what keeps me from getting too upset about all of this QB stuff. I'm confident that our HC will develop the right guy and be successful.

 

[Primus Porcus]

Mike, VERY good question, which I dont have the answer to. I did see Griffin running some read option plays against Tampa, one of which he superman'd over a defender, but I do wonder why we hadn't seen more shotgun looks for him. Gruden doesn't go without criticism either, I guess I've come across sounding like I feel that Griffin is our major problem and that I want him gone, but that's not true. I'm just pointing out red flags I've seen with him over the course of the season.

Again, the blocking schemes and playcalling this last week were very confusing and frustrating and that falls on Gruden. He HAS to get better.

 

[GSF]

Sorry GSF but the simple answer is Nope! The guy is a fanatical worker, saying he hasn't put in the time or work is absurd. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

Yea but that's a whole different argument than "he's not putting in the work". It may indeed be that it's "not taking" but that's a personal acumen issue, not a dedication or willingness to work issue. I'm going to need to see actual proof that he's a slacker in the film room before I am willing to buy it. It would require an absolute 180 degree turn from where he was at for his entire football life. It' just makes no sense that he'd work that hard at the physical end but blow off the mental end. Just doesn't wash brotha.

So what are you saying that Griffin isn't smart enough to learn how to read defenses? To me, that's what doesn't pass the sniff test. Om hit it right on the head. I'm not saying that Griffin doesn't log hours in the weight room, but I don't believe he is spending the extra time doing the "secret work" that the great ones do. I believe he doesn't think he needs to. Yes he didn't run a pro style offense at Baylor, but he's not a rookie any more. He should be way further along than he is. Yes the oline is bad but Colt McCoy was much more productive behind the same crap line, and he's played less than Griffin has. If you can give me a more logical reason why it hasn't clicked for Griffin I'm all ears, but to say he might not have the acumen...hard for me to believe. Clearly he's a pretty smart guy.

We always hear the stories how Manning and Harrison would be out there countless hours practicing routes. Brady is well known for his film study. Have you ever heard a story like that about RG3? I can't remember 1.

 

[GSF]

Griffin has some major issues. the camps are basically dividg up along two lines: those who believe he was doomed to failure from the beginning; and those ho believe that the problems can be fixed given commitment by all parties, improvement across the board in all the areas that are torpedoing this team and competent coaching. pretty clear where folks on this board break out.

I don't think that assessment is accurate at all. I don't think any of us thought he was doomed from the beginning. I sure didn't. I definitely believe the problems can be fixed. My big question is will Griffin commit to it as you say. So far there's no evidence that he has or will. I sure hope he does.

 

[GSF]

Why bring in a coach to coach a player the way he isn't used to playing instead of adjusting both?

Griffin clearly is trying to adjust to the pocket but gruden can't seem to play to griffins strengths at all. He doesn't even call shotgun for the guy! It feels almost personal in nature from the way he handles everything with Robert

It's not personal. Gruden was Griffin to play like an nfl QB, which he hasn't been able to do so far.

 

[MikeSr619]

Why does Griffin have to do all the committing? Gruden has no problems calling roll out plays and ones that help him best..why doesn't he do the same for 10?

 

[fansince62]

I don't think that assessment is accurate at all. I don't think any of us thought he was doomed from the beginning. I sure didn't. I definitely believe the problems can be fixed. My big question is will Griffin commit to it as you say. So far there's no evidence that he has or will. I sure hope he does.

fair enough.

note that I posted commitment by all parties. per posts by others, I disagree w/the idea that there's no evidence that he has or will commit to improving. it's very, very hard to support universal claims like that. it's hard to reconcile that, for example, with statements RGIII has ade abt working on his footwork...for example.

 

[DixieFlatline]

So what are you saying that Griffin isn't smart enough to learn how to read defenses? To me, that's what doesn't pass the sniff test. Om hit it right on the head. I'm not saying that Griffin doesn't log hours in the weight room, but I don't believe he is spending the extra time doing the "secret work" that the great ones do. I believe he doesn't think he needs to. Yes he didn't run a pro style offense at Baylor, but he's not a rookie any more. He should be way further along than he is. Yes the oline is bad but Colt McCoy was much more productive behind the same crap line, and he's played less than Griffin has. If you can give me a more logical reason why it hasn't clicked for Griffin I'm all ears, but to say he might not have the acumen...hard for me to believe. Clearly he's a pretty smart guy.

We always hear the stories how Manning and Harrison would be out there countless hours practicing routes. Brady is well known for his film study. Have you ever heard a story like that about RG3? I can't remember 1.

When you are comparing Griffin to McCoy, you have to remember, McCoy has a few more years under his belt reading defenses at the NFL level.

 

[fansince62]

It's not personal. Gruden was Griffin to play like an nfl QB, which he hasn't been able to do so far.

well...if we have to go down this road:

- exactly how many NFL championship QBs has Gruden groomed?

- exactly how many ROY QBs has Gruden mentored?

none. zip. zilch. it's just sort of assumed around here that Gruden possesses special magic dust when it comes to QBs. well maybe that's another myth. maybe he runs an offense that DCs can figure up and throttle. maybe he's not a clever play caller. maybe he doesn't adjust well. maybe his laissez-faire leadership style has led to the lack of discipline and bonehead headwork mistakes that keep recurring.

maybe....just maybe...the assumption that a guy who can't pick his own staff is nevertheless a strong-willed character destined for championships.....is faulty to the core.

we need to ensure NO ONE on this team receives a free pass. when things are as bad as they are...the microscope needs to fall on everyone.

Jay Gruden may be in way over his head.

 

[Primus Porcus]

When you are comparing Griffin to McCoy, you have to remember, McCoy has a few more years under his belt reading defenses at the NFL level.

I understand that... but were talking about an NFL QB in his 3rd season.... both spending the same amount of time in the same system. Some of Griffins shortfalls and struggles are things that Rookies in their first couple of games do.... not something you'd expect from a franchise QB who won rookie of the year. There is some sort of disconnect here. Whether it be Griffin not putting in the time in certain training aspects, Gruden not giving him the correct training, McVay not working with him enough, or Griffin simply not being able to grasp an NFL style offense is anyone's guess... But when Colt McCoy can come in and do what he did on Sunday with the same 10 guys on the field around him an the O-Line playing with the same lackadaisical and frustrating effort, there's SOMETHING going on.

 

[Ax]

Griffin's 1st offseason as a pro was spent rehabbing a knee. Not sure how much time, other than mental, he could spend repping a new way to walk. So to say. His 2nd was spent learning a new system, that required he already learned how to "Walk This Way".

 

[Primus Porcus]

Griffin's 1st offseason as a pro was spent rehabbing a knee. Not sure how much time, other than mental, he could spend repping a new way to walk. So to say. His 2nd was spent learning a new system, that required he already learned how to "Walk This Way".

Ok then dont (not saying you specifically) bash Gruden and his lack of coaching ability because Shanny and Griffin rushed Griff back after his surgery. That's not fair to Gruden. Griff also got hurt so now were 11 games into a season and it's seemingly apparent Griff isn't mentally at the level from a QB standpoint that ANYONE thought he was. Nobody on this board, on the team, in the media, anywhere can say the expected THIS level of execution from him.


I honestly hope you're right and that he can learn how to 'walk this way'. Im just not sure I've seen enough in the (albeit a small one) sample size that it's going to happen as quickly as we all would like it to... I hope he gets another chance to prove that he's getting things figured out, but were at a crossroads. If we don't pick up his 5th option, then he most likely walks after next season. If we do pick up his 5th year, then he's counts something like $16m against the cap in 2016. The only way this thing works out at all favorably for the Redskins is if he can get this figured out, we re-sign him to a multi-year deal this offseason, and he's a successful starter. Any other option transpires and it's a complete messup for SOMEONE.

 

[MikeSr619]

What has Gruden done to work with Griffin? Serious question...

has he helped him install plays that he can do like he does Colt?
has he tried to change some of his plays so that they match up better with griffin's style?

I mean...we hear "Griff needs to learn to slide" "Griff has to stay in the pocket" and all these other things...but what is the coach doing with Griffin?

 

[Primus Porcus]

I dont know. I can't believe that Gruden has refused to invest anything in Griffins best interests, and if he has.. then we're completely screwed. That very well may be where the fall off is... Given the cluster**** of this situation, I can't say anything is for certain right now. I WANT to believe Gruden and Griffin are both doing their best. I WANT a lot of things in life and it really stings when they don't happen. My criticism of Griffin, if it seems like I'm bashing him, is because his name is the one in the title of this thread, so I've tried to keep the conversation about HIM and what my evaluation of him is.

 

[MikeSr619]

I think he might have in the offseason and TC...but when he got hurt I dont think he did. I think he just threw him back in there and it was a sink or swim thing for Robert. I get that he should know the plays and be able to run them..he is NOT blameless..but, to me, its 50/50. A good coach brings out the best in all players and helps to motivate them...I haven't seen many people who want to lay down their lives for our coach at the moment.

 

[Ax]

A simple comparison of Gruden, to Shamaham, in being able to get the most out of Griffin, is a blowout/shutout for Shammy. Gruden, so far, couldn't hold Shammy's jock strap when it comes to Griffin's, not to mention, Garcon"s, production.

 

[Primus Porcus]

A simple comparison of Gruden, to Shamaham, in being able to get the most out of Griffin, is a blowout/shutout for Shammy. Gruden, so far, couldn't hold Shammy's jock strap when it comes to Griffin's, not to mention, Garcon"s, production.

Who compared them?