PFT: Gruden says the “clock’s ticking” on Griffin

[Primus Porcus]

the problem..ST...is that Griffin isn't the only trouble spot. I'd normally agree with you. but after repeated poor passpro, horrific games by the defense, continual headwork/discipline foul-ups (aren't we the second most penalized team in the league or in that neighborhood?), inconsistent ST play........I'd say a whole lotta things aren't getting fixed.

Ok, I understand that. So when the pass protection is getting beat, or missing assignments, what do you do? You make a change if you've determined they are not the right fit for the scheme. The offensive line absolutely is struggling but so is Griffin. I dont understand why he gets a pass when Morgan Moses, a rookie LT comes in on his first start and goes 1 on 1 with Aldon Smith, gets beat, and is getting completely destroyed. I understand that coaches need to help him out there, but come on... why doesn't he get the same benefit of the doubt. I know we gave up a lot for Griffin and the kid was special but he's also posting up a fundamental failing grade. He's getting beat mentally and he's in his 3rd season. No, Griffin is NOT the ONLY problem, but he's A PROBLEM.. If you want to be critical of the other aspects, then he deserves the same criticism.

 

[Primus Porcus]

So instead Gruden gives him three games and publically undermines him? Yes, it sucks Griff got injured, but Gruden should factor that in.

But he's been in the system for more then 3 games... Injury and rust cause the ball to sail.. not to make the wrong drop back and read the wrong side of the field.

 

[Anne The Fan]

It's my understanding McVay is playing the dual role…OC and QB coach.

Thanks El.

 

[Goaldeje]

But he's been in the system for more then 3 games... Injury and rust cause the ball to sail.. not to make the wrong drop back and read the wrong side of the field.

He hasn't been in Gruden's system longer than 4 games.

Griff has looked bad, no argument here. I just am not sure why we feel the need to definitively close the door on his tenure here.

 

[Primus Porcus]

He hasn't been in Gruden's system longer than 4 games.

Griff has looked bad, no argument here. I just am not sure why we feel the need to definitively close the door on his tenure here.

I never have. I've been very vocal about my hope that he can turn this around over the last 5 games...

But he's been in this offense just as long as the rest of the players on the team. He didnt play games, but last time I checked, you can still watch film, study reads and playbooks, and develop the mental aspect of the scheme while you're hurt. IF he didn't study playbooks and stuff while he was hurt then we have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem. He's been at practices for more then 4 weeks this season.. he also had a whole off-season... something many of us (myself included) said was going to be the difference between last season and this one. Thing is that it's not. He's gone through pro style offensive coordinators now and still struggles with the basic fundamentals about reading a defense.

 

[MikeSr619]

2.3 seconds in the pocket. some of that could be caused by footwork and not stepping up when he is supposed to. but, really, what time do you have for ANY thought in 2.3 seconds?

 

[Primus Porcus]

I get it Mike, the O-Line is not what it needs to be.... but right now, neither is Griffin.

 

[micks113]

sure! as long as the duty is reciprocated...no problem...I'll even provide some freebees:

- a poor culture in the locker room that has been such for years; aligned with this is evident lack of leadership which has also been such for years

- an owner who meddled with players and football decisions for years; by all appearances he has pulled back...but the damage...which has lasting effects (e.g., quality FAs who do not want to come here which means money is the deciding factor - limiting options elsewhere) has been done; a FO structure with unclear divisions of responsibility; no clear long-term strategy and aligned operational and tactical decision-making; no quality GMs for almost two decades

- a rotating merry-go-round of coaches and schemes based on short-term time horizons and VERY HIGH discounted present value functions for coaching staffs; a fanbase with similarly myopic time horizons

- a scouting department with a very uneven record in finding quality FAs and draft picks who develop into star or even 6 to 8 year players

- a complete inability to manage media relationships which contributes to an atmosphere of antagonism and mistrust

- by media accounts, a workstaff that is eternally stressed under constant threat of firing

- an obvious lack of discipline year after year that traces to culture and lack of accountability

by all means...please provide contrarian thoughts that support the notion that 20+ years of losing football is the product of simply not supplying coaches with players that match their schemes - when one core problem has been a new HC (and therefore scheme) every 2-4 years. that RGIII self-destructed on his own, as has just about every other QB in the last decade who has had the living tar pounded out of them, because of inherent limitations and no longer-term organizational dysfunctions that have CONSISTENTLY led to the SAME results. that is, I guess, one possible narrative. it is a root cause analysis of sorts!

ultimately, this team is a repeatung failure fundamentally because of a lack of leadership....at all levels and through the decades.

Thanks for replying. I think we are thinking the same thing but our definition of systems or systemic is completely different. By that I mean, we both acknowledge there is NO SYSTEM. So in my world, to speak of systemic problems, its a moot point as there is no system to criticize.

In the corporate world, companies have systems in place at every level with operating procedures and corp. policies. However, every nfl franchise is owned and operated like a closely held business because that's exactly what it is. It is run by the owner who has the luxury of running in whatever way he wants. He then hires the football people and coach to "operate" the business venture. Now we all know Snyder had his faults and I thought he had changed with Allen and let Allen make the major decisions. And let the coach make major team decisions. That's the premise I operate under. Closely held businesses do not have systems by which to operate. The fact that the Redskins have shown a pattern as to how they routinely screw up the roster and fire coaches every two years does not make a system imho.

Only on one team is the owner in charge of running the team. Jerry Jones. In New England, when Belicheck leaves, it won't be Robert Kraft carrying on the winning tradition. It won't be a new coach in New England running the Kraft "system". It's all on the coach to get results, using his own philosophy and schemes. That is the only "system" there is. And why I want to give Gruden a chance to make his plan work. I think Snyder has learned to stay hands off. Somewhere I read where he told Gruden how to behave when things go bad. He said "don't tell me an excuse why its bad tell me how you are going to fix it" or some such. Someone post the quote, because it is very telling and Gruden knows what Dan wants. He's not going to try to blow smoke up his ass. I'm sure Gruden has been very forthright in talking to Dan. All the cards are on the table, I don't see any hidden agendas.

I think there is still an opportunity to get better with this coach, the rebuild is still in full swing. But he must survive the QB controversy, and must survive the nuclear plant going "critical" and avoid the melt down that is in progress.

 

[MikeSr619]

I get it Mike, the O-Line is not what it needs to be.... but right now, neither is Griffin.

Right, blame lies on both ends. But the most vocal blame is with Griffin...the guy who has only been in this system legitimately for 4 games max. Nobody is screaming about Jackson's lackluster effort to catch that deep ball on Sunday, nobody is pissed at Paul for the tip INT returned for a touchdown. Griffin gets all the blame rightfully or not.

Hell, I see people even trying to act like the line here is decent!! Seriously. A rookie at LT, and a patchwork of "other guys" and they are acting like an average of 2.3 seconds is good enough. I've seen the OL just let guys go by them after a few seconds. Why? Why not drive that mother****er in to the dirt and play until the whistle like you have been taught since Pop Warner? You don't see NE OL just "let guys go" after a certain amount of time regardless of how many steps Brady was supposed to take back. If you even sack him his OL is there throwing you off of him and helping him up.

Yet all we hear about is Griffin. He isn't good enough, he's regressed, he is not doing what he needs to do. And while all of that might be true, nobody mentions the factors around him that seem to be causing this to be. He gets hit harder than any other QB I have ever seen. Our OL has no heart to take a cheap shot at a free running LB to stop their QB from getting lifted off the ground and slammed on his head. The WRs aren't laying out for the ball, they aren't fighting to get open down field like you would see Jordy or Edleman do. Yet it's on Griffin because he had so many draft picks traded away for him...something he had no control over.

I know this isn't your stance specifically, but I am just tired of seeing him used as a scapegoat and made out to be the main problem on this team. We have been screaming for an OL since Jansen left the league!!! Yet we draft 2nd and 4th rounders and expect them to protect our franchise QB. Then when they DONT, we get mad at the QB for not doing what he is supposed to.

What happened to the shotgun formation? In 2012 we ran a lot of that. It helped with the reductions of sacks, it helped him see the field better, and it made it easier for him to scramble.

Where are the roll outs that he was so good at? Look at the very play he hurt his ankle on. He completed that pass for a 1st down and hit Jackson right on the numbers. That is what he is good at!

Why aren't we calling more runs to the right?
Where are the screen plays to Helu that help him average 12.7 YAC?
where is the extra blocker to help with the blitzes because we know the OL cant do it?

So many questions....not every one of them have the answer of "Its Griffin's fault"

 

[Primus Porcus]

I'm with you. The reason the discussion is focused on Griffin is because HE is the one in the public eye. While it might not be deserved, he's the most accessible. Look at our front page of this very board and how many contain the name Griffin vs any other player on the team... I started a thread a couple weeks ago posing a question about the future of the receiving corps and it got 3 responses or something minor like that... Griffin is the popular discussion because we are going to have to make a decision this offseason about him... one that could cost the team $15m + if it's wrong.

The O-Line absolutely needs changing, but the reason nobody is talking about it, is because everyone (for the most part) agrees on that fact. Nobody is in here talking about whether or not Chris Chester should be our starting RG because everyone knows he's not worth the conversation. Griffin is. Nobody talks about Lavau because he's never been expected to turn this franchise around... Griffin is the conversation because HE was soo good, and has seemingly taken a very large step backwards.

 

[redskins26]

while some aspects of the system change it is still a version of the west coast offense that we ran last year
As with any coaching changes some things change

 

[McD5]

I just came across this and think it might help.

It's an article that shows in visual form exactly what RG3's problems are, and why he's 6 years or more behind on fundamentals.

It also shows one play where no less than 5 receivers are wide open at the same time but he has no idea about what to do.

This isn't to bash, but to catch anyone up to exactly what the coaches are looking at when trying to determine what is best for the future.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-s...w--robert-griffin-iii-s-issues-214738329.html

 

[MikeSr619]

McD, saying you want to catch us up and aren't bashing him is not being honest and as rude as saying we don't watch as much football as you. I wish you'd stop trying to be better or more enlightened than us and just speak to people like they know as much as you do.

Because we do. Just because we don't agree doesn't make us ignorant or wrong.

 

[McD5]

Not being rude.

Catch up referring to anyone who has limited time on this site.

I've seen a few ugly breakdowns of his game recently. But nothing that shows where the coaching staff has used an extra blocker to chip, he has a perfectly clean pocket and forever to throw, and five guys wide open at the same time.

Now I understand what Cooley meant when he claimed he had no possible idea of what the coaching staff could call for him.

We probably need to either just let him run r/o for six months or move forward.

 

[GSF]

So why hasn't someone as smart as Griffin been able to learn the fundamentals and how to better read defenses in 2 plus years? The only answer I come up with that he hasn't put the work in. Why hasn't he put the work in? The only answer I come up with is he doesn't think it's necessary.

agree completely Boone.

here's the thing that I can't wrap my brain around. RG has declined. no question. all this "it's always been there" stuff is nonsense. this has been a precipitous decline. something is going on behind the scenes. something that started with the Shanahans IMO.

I have a hard time believing Griffin doesn't put the work in. I think it's far more likely that he doesn't trust his protections.

Guys, the more I think about this the more I believe in my earlier comments that Griffin has not done the work necessary to become an elite QB in the NFL. The "always been there stuff" is not nonsense '62. In 2012 the Shannahans quite cleverly caught the league off guard with that read option offense they installed for Griffin and Morris. Griffin did not have to read defenses pre-snap or from the pocket in that offense. Griffin was so athletic and ran that option so well that the league couldn't stop it. the Shannahans were also smart enough to know that eventually the league would figure out how to shut it down, and that sooner or later griffin would have to learn how to read defenses and play from the pocket.

Griffin didn't decline, he got exposed when he got injured and came back much less explosive than he was pre-injury. He didn't decline, he didn't learn how to be an nfl QB. More and more guys are coming out to back up the theory that Griffin has not put the work in like a Manning, Brady, Brees, or Rogers did to learn how to read defenses and find open receivers. On top of Jaworski's comments MCD5 posted, take a look at Steve Young's comments about Griffin:

Two weeks ago, ESPN analyst Steve Young said that, based on his conversations with coaches, Robert Griffin III doesn’t put in the time to be an effective quarterback in the NFL. Young joined Thom Loverro and Kevin Sheehan on ESPN 980′s “The Sports Fix” on Monday and, in addition to addressing those comments, he was asked whether he sees a long-term quarterback on the Redskins’ roster.

Young said that he did, referencing his own career and Drew Brees’s development after he was traded to New Orleans as two examples of quarterbacks who blossomed a few years after entering the league. He also said that Griffin, Colt McCoy or Kirk Cousins could be that guy in Washington.

“The good news is that I think that Jay Gruden is one of the guys that understands quarterback play in this league,” Young said. “That’s unusual. There’s not 32 great places for quarterbacks in the league. My opinion is, since Mike [Shanahan] got there, and now Jay, both of them are great spots for quarterbacks. The guys on the roster…they gotta go to school. Some are ahead of others in the master’s program and I think the capitulation that Robert needs is that, my game is a play-making game and I need to transition it to the true job in the NFL, which has been proven to me over many years, and was proved to me individually, that the job is to deliver the ball from the pocket, to own the pocket, use the data and manage it and perfect it, and have reflexive recall and go win a championship from there.

Personally I'm pretty pissed at RG3. He had all the tools, but he lacked the humility to make the realization that Young references above. I really think that had he put the work in the last few years things would be very different for the Redskins right now. People want to talk about how dysfunctional the team is, and how we should trade the whole roster, but I say you drop Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees into this same team, and the Redskins would be a playoff team and probably be a few key pieces on the oline and defense away from being Superbowl contenders. Jackon, Garcon, Reed, and Morris are talented players, but if the QB can't get them the ball it doesn't matter.

Edit: here is the link to the Young comments: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...oy-could-be-more-than-a-stopgap-for-redskins/

 

[fansince62]

I never have. I've been very vocal about my hope that he can turn this around over the last 5 games...

But he's been in this offense just as long as the rest of the players on the team. He didnt play games, but last time I checked, you can still watch film, study reads and playbooks, and develop the mental aspect of the scheme while you're hurt. IF he didn't study playbooks and stuff while he was hurt then we have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem. He's been at practices for more then 4 weeks this season.. he also had a whole off-season... something many of us (myself included) said was going to be the difference between last season and this one. Thing is that it's not. He's gone through pro style offensive coordinators now and still struggles with the basic fundamentals about reading a defense.

it should be obvious by now that it becomes progressively harder to read offenses when your arse is getting pounded every play. the sham argument abt the other QBs not being subject to the same poor o-line play/sacks (which was always weak to the degree that it neglected picks) was put to rest this past weekend.

the observation that the shift to a new system under live play is accurate: Griffin played very little in the preseason and only 4 games this season under less than stellar conditions. watching film. slow mo practice is nothing compared to live play - why just look at our sorry arse secondary. come to thiok of it...why not? don't hear folks really zooming in on this play in the same way (i.e., sack em...they have had time and are not studying). in fact, I'm onboard with you if the principle is applied across the board. from where I sit, about half the team can be whittled down/shipped off based on the same criteria applied to Griffin. somehow, magically, these other players who can't execute their jobs are salvageable. Murphy can't passrush if his llife depended on it- a much simpler task than QB'ing - but somehow he can learn!

in the end....I get the dynamic of giving up early on a player out of context - it's a DC fandom legacy afterall. what seems problematic is the superficial analysis on how to fix things, viable alternatives (vice patches)...and context on the ways multiple factors inter-act to produce the slovenly football we have been subjected to for two straight years....regardless of who is QB'ing. Put griffin behind a decent line, provide some good coaching and a stable system and my bet is he blossoms. I'm hoping that is what eventually happens when he is picked up by Philly or dallass.

 

[fansince62]

GSF: strawman argument. RO requires fast decision-making. In broader context, I can recall multiple times the same passing play being run with great success: under center, fake hand-off to ALF to left side, run down the line, 3-4 yard drop, set and long pass downfield to garcon running a medium to deep crossing pattern. the idea that the play we are seeing now from Griffin is the exact ame play we saw in 2012 in all aspects is ludicrous in my book.

where I agree with many is that Griffin hasn't developed the skills to understand where a play is going BEFORE THE SNAP. Moss was on the radio yesterday highlighting that as the main reason he favored Grossman as much as he did. griffin doesn't have the skillset. he needs to develop it...it takes time, training, etc., etc. as for the study part...I discount that as fans running off yet again with the latest media meme. recall that when Griffin first became a Skin the conversation was all about how hard he worked, first to arrive, last to leave, etc., etc. now, suddenly the story changes? don't know where ground truth lies. I do know this: this is exactly the sort of low level sniping that has typified the Redskins for years now. it was the game the Shanahans played to a tee.

a few key pieces from a SB contender? well...we're all entitled to our opinions! given the general poor performance...especially on defense....I find that idea laughable. it also depends upon the idea of salting the offense with a top 5 QB. that's the gist of the argument.

you are, of course, free to adopt the notion that the idea of decline is not a player in terms of explaining a player's development or lack thereof.....that the moment he arrived he was ordained to fail. with, of course, the small exception of the 2012 season. I don't buy that at all. having running organizations with 100s of individuals with varying talents/potential levels....I'm much more prone to the notion that success derives from personal commitment, innate talent and collective/team development. I have seen it a million times. I have seen absolute rocks turn their lives around and become valuable members of the team. I have also seen where it fails. sometimes failure traces to the character of the individual - fate as it were. but a lot of the time it traces to the environment, culture, lack of resources, lack of role models, lack of mentoring....a whole slew of factors. the Washington Redskins are a failing football team at the moment and it is clear as all get out that there are causes that reach far beyond Griffin. and that is why I find the griffin analysis shallow and unconvincing. the team is failing across the board - the environment that Griffin and the others have to operate in is itself destructive. until that is fixed....IMO we won't know whether Griffin really could mature in a way that takes advantage of all his talents and innate skills...unless, of course, he goes to another team that is better coached and more disciplined with better players who execute consistently and intelligently.

personally, while I'm interested in the technical observations of the Youngs/Jaws of the world.....I could care less about the conclusions they draw. they know nothing about the insider mechanics of what is going on with the team. they aren't sitting there assessing how it is every QB is getting the ***t pounded out of them, why it is (as we all can see) that the RG is run around/pushed into the pocket with alarming regularity, how the LG and replacement LT have also been routinely out-quicked, how it is the RBs constantly make the wrong decisions on pass blocking, why it is the o-line doesn't hustle on plays like the one Mike posted, why the receivers dot complete patterns (that's what they're paid to do...regardless of play by others), why receive do drop passes, why this team can't get through two consecutive games w/o half the roster on the injury list, why players skip mtgs.....a whole litany of issues that provide context.

Griffin has some major issues. the camps are basically dividg up along two lines: those who believe he was doomed to failure from the beginning; and those ho believe that the problems can be fixed given commitment by all parties, improvement across the board in all the areas that are torpedoing this team and competent coaching. pretty clear where folks on this board break out.

 

[CounterTrey]

Guys, the more I think about this the more I believe in my earlier comments that Griffin has not done the work necessary to become an elite QB in the NFL. The "always been there stuff" is not nonsense '62. In 2012 the Shannahans quite cleverly caught the league off guard with that read option offense they installed for Griffin and Morris. Griffin did not have to read defenses pre-snap or from the pocket in that offense. Griffin was so athletic and ran that option so well that the league couldn't stop it. the Shannahans were also smart enough to know that eventually the league would figure out how to shut it down, and that sooner or later griffin would have to learn how to read defenses and play from the pocket.

Griffin didn't decline, he got exposed when he got injured and came back much less explosive than he was pre-injury. He didn't decline, he didn't learn how to be an nfl QB. More and more guys are coming out to back up the theory that Griffin has not put the work in like a Manning, Brady, Brees, or Rogers did to learn how to read defenses and find open receivers. On top of Jaworski's comments MCD5 posted, take a look at Steve Young's comments about Griffin:



Personally I'm pretty pissed at RG3. He had all the tools, but he lacked the humility to make the realization that Young references above. I really think that had he put the work in the last few years things would be very different for the Redskins right now. People want to talk about how dysfunctional the team is, and how we should trade the whole roster, but I say you drop Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees into this same team, and the Redskins would be a playoff team and probably be a few key pieces on the oline and defense away from being Superbowl contenders. Jackon, Garcon, Reed, and Morris are talented players, but if the QB can't get them the ball it doesn't matter.

Edit: here is the link to the Young comments: Steve Young says late-blooming Colt McCoy could be more than a stopgap for Redskins - The Washington Post

Sorry GSF but the simple answer is Nope! The guy is a fanatical worker, saying he hasn't put in the time or work is absurd. It doesn't pass the sniff test.

McD your boy has completely blown it across the board. If it was JUST Griffin then maybe your assertion might hold weight but it's the entire freakin squad making last year's team look decent at times, the WHOLE team. That's on one thing and one thing only when it's an issue across the board. Coaching. Gruden has failed miserably thus far. Until we get better coaching that isn't insistent on sticking with a system despite the fact that his team's talent doesn't mesh with it this team will go nowhere. Until we get sopme accountability within thje coaching staff and FO this team will go nowhere. Round peg square hole the offense, no production. Round Peg square hole the D with a system we don't have the personnel to run and we get a run of the worst D in league history and become a laughingstock leaguewide.

It's not Gruden's fault what happened before now but the guy has all the power he needs now and has made bad decision after bad decision. He could very well come around but his year of coaching isn't any more impressive than Griffin's year of play has been.

 

[Om]

No one doubts Robert works his ass off. I think where some of us diverge is in the belief that what he's working AT, or how effectively he's actually learning, has become the issue. The man's clearly a gym rat. But given his struggles in the pocket (not just pre-snap but as the play develops) it's also become perfectly reasonable to question whether his film room studies, are "taking" once he hits the field on Sundays. It's too simple to simply write his struggles off to getting hit.

 

[CounterTrey]

No one doubts Robert works his ass off. I think where some of us diverge is in the belief that what he's working AT, or how effectively he's actually learning, has become the issue. The man's clearly a gym rat. But given his struggles in the pocket (not just pre-snap but as the play develops) it's also become perfectly reasonable to question whether his film room studies, are "taking" once he hits the field on Sundays. It's too simple to simply write his struggles off to getting hit.

Yea but that's a whole different argument than "he's not putting in the work". It may indeed be that it's "not taking" but that's a personal acumen issue, not a dedication or willingness to work issue. I'm going to need to see actual proof that he's a slacker in the film room before I am willing to buy it. It would require an absolute 180 degree turn from where he was at for his entire football life. It' just makes no sense that he'd work that hard at the physical end but blow off the mental end. Just doesn't wash brotha.