Discussing the potential future benching og RG3

[fansince62]

......

 

[Elephant]

That ball hit him in the hands. We aren't talking about whether or not it was a good throw. We're talking about the fact that it's not Griffin's ****ing fault that Niles doesn't have the good sense not to pop the damn thing straight up in the air and beg a Buc's defender to grab it. I'm not hating on Paul, but Jesus Christ let's have a little balance in the criticism if we are going to gut players. It is a team sport guys. You win as a team and you lose as a team. That really is how it works.

And if the throw had been on target, Paul didn't have to try to make a great snag nearly pulling it off the turf after Robert scrambled out of the pocket, then he doesn't make a dumb play.

Both tried to do too much...both are at fault.

 

[Fear The Spear]

Sorry for the un-intended double-post

 

[Fear The Spear]

Drew Brees wasn't a starting caliber QB the year before they drafted Philip Rivers. That kinda proves all your points for Griffin and McCoy. Haha.

I'm not advocating benching Griffin for McCoy or Cousins for that matter....

Griffin has thrown 200 more passes in his career, than McCoy - yet many are calling for patience on Rg3, while stamping McCoy a career backup ?
That's backwards logic
Yea, I remember 2012. But Rg3 will most likely never play again in that 2012 offense again.
Colt had a crappier supporting cast in Cleveland, than Rg3 has in DC. And then he was stuck behind a then-thriving Kapernick.
Then in DC, when we can finally compare Apples To Apples, and settle this once and for all, he thrives far more than Rg3 in the very same offense.
Yet, Colt is pre-destined to be a career backup, but Rg3 gets perpetual time to continue to try to prove himself.
Doesn't add up

 

[Sam Hill]

Griffin has thrown 200 more passes in his career, than McCoy - yet many are calling for patience on Rg3, while stamping McCoy a career backup.
That's backwards logic.

I've been thinking the same way, but then I realized that the difference lies in their respective physical gifts. Robert's ceiling (assuming he ever approaches it) is at or above the Steve Young level, which if you remember the early 90's, for a while there was just unstoppably effective. Think of Michael Vick, but with accuracy and a functioning brain.

Right now, if I needed to win a game, I'd start McCoy, but his potential just isn't the same. With his lack of arm strength, you're talking about an upside comparable to Chad Pennington - nice enough to win you some games, but it allows your opponents to stack the box, and very tough to get through the playoffs with.

But for that arm strength, Doug Flutie might've been Joe Montana.

 

[micks113]

Every bad throw is Griffin's fault whether its a pick or not. Every off target throw increases the risk of int. Paul sucks anyways and I'm ready for him to go, now Paulsen earlier in the year had a similar catch and stood there while two players stripped him. That was as fumble not a pick, but if that's the best Paulsen has, he has to go. Tipped balls are the result of bad throws 9 times out of 10. Throws at the feet and in the dirt do not even give the wr a chance to make a play even if they catch it. Reggie Wayne destroyed his knee on a Luck throw at the feet. Grif can do better that's what makes this so painful to watch.

Griffin is like 1-8 in last nine games??? come on he isn't a QB of the future with those results no matter how pretty he stands behind center. Everyone thinks he has upside, but he needs to show it. Right now, we don't have a NFL starting worthy QB on the roster. The coach em up mentality doesn't hold water. They have all been coached up. They have their limitations. We see them for what they are. I'm done being a RGIII apologist.

He will finish the season under center, but more performance like he's shown is reason for sitting on the pine.

 

[Primus Porcus]

That's BS. Paul was responsible. It's the NFL, man. Those passes are expected to be completed.

and to your point, that throw is expected to be between the numbers. An NFL QB is expected to be able to put that throw out front where Paul can catch it and advance it after the catch. We aren't talking about dropping it in a barrel at 50 yards here. It was a swing pass to the flat.


Paul by all accounts should be held responsible but not sole responsibility. Griffin could have made a better throw.

 

[fansince62]

Griffin has thrown 200 more passes in his career, than McCoy - yet many are calling for patience on Rg3, while stamping McCoy a career backup ?
That's backwards logic
Yea, I remember 2012. But Rg3 will most likely never play again in that 2012 offense again.
Colt had a crappier supporting cast in Cleveland, than Rg3 has in DC. And then he was stuck behind a then-thriving Kapernick.
Then in DC, when we can finally compare Apples To Apples, and settle this once and for all, he thrives far more than Rg3 in the very same offense.
Yet, Colt is pre-destined to be a career backup, but Rg3 gets perpetual time to continue to try to prove himself.
Doesn't add up

that's the analysis?

that's what, in some quarters, is labeled a strawman argument.

 

[fansince62]

Every bad throw is Griffin's fault whether its a pick or not. Every off target throw increases the risk of int. Paul sucks anyways and I'm ready for him to go, now Paulsen earlier in the year had a similar catch and stood there while two players stripped him. That was as fumble not a pick, but if that's the best Paulsen has, he has to go. Tipped balls are the result of bad throws 9 times out of 10. Throws at the feet and in the dirt do not even give the wr a chance to make a play even if they catch it. Reggie Wayne destroyed his knee on a Luck throw at the feet. Grif can do better that's what makes this so painful to watch.

Griffin is like 1-8 in last nine games??? come on he isn't a QB of the future with those results no matter how pretty he stands behind center. Everyone thinks he has upside, but he needs to show it. Right now, we don't have a NFL starting worthy QB on the roster. The coach em up mentality doesn't hold water. They have all been coached up. They have their limitations. We see them for what they are. I'm done being a RGIII apologist.

He will finish the season under center, but more performance like he's shown is reason for sitting on the pine.

maybe!!!

but I attended one of those games last season. it's not until one sees it in person that the reality of just how bad that o-line is in pass pro sinks in.

1-8! thank goodness the major suckage on ST, defense and offense is discounted as you perform your factor analysis in deciding where the biggest problems fall. hanging one's hat on the Jax and Titans game...IMO....is way wide of the mark. those teams...along with the Skins...are among the worst in the NFL. As with Tampa Bay...we should have won with anyone at the QB position. We didn't beat Tampa Bay cuz this team completely collapsed.

sorry...at least in my book.....you have no foundation to rest on. we know griffin has been making mistakes. the problem is that so much around him has been breaking down that THEER IS NO WAY TO DISCRIMINATE ROOT CAUSES.

let's take this thread: griffin makes a pass at feet level or off the trailing shoulder. QBs fault! maybe. perhaps the blocking broke down and the pass comes out a second early or late. perhaps a d-linemen is moving into the gap and the QB has to adjust. it's not that bad passes aren't being made...we can see when that happens...it's that no one (we fans) really has a bead on how the interacting parts of a single play conspire to produce success/failure.

returning to theme. this is a team that drove a superlative talent into the ground and destroyed his knee because...let's be frank...it didn't give a *amn. there's a lot more in play here in a complex set of interacting forces.

 

[fansince62]

and to your point, that throw is expected to be between the numbers. An NFL QB is expected to be able to put that throw out front where Paul can catch it and advance it after the catch. We aren't talking about dropping it in a barrel at 50 yards here. It was a swing pass to the flat.


Paul by all accounts should be held responsible but not sole responsibility. Griffin could have made a better throw.

if memoery serves...that was a broken play. yup...it should have been in the bread basket. but it wasn't. it was, however, catchable. are you saying that unless a pass is perfect the receiver has no obligation or expectation to catch a ball that, afterall, hit him in the hands?

 

[Primus Porcus]

if memoery serves...that was a broken play. yup...it should have been in the bread basket. but it wasn't. it was, however, catchable. are you saying that unless a pass is perfect the receiver has no obligation or expectation to catch a ball that, afterall, hit him in the hands?

read the last part of the post you just quoted...

Paul by all accounts should be held responsible but not sole responsibility. Griffin could have made a better throw.

 

[Fear The Spear]

that's the analysis?

that's what, in some quarters, is labeled a strawman argument.

This whole thread is my argument, not just one post.
And what is your argument ?
I would truly love to hear your full analysis and evidence, to support why you're so certain that RG is the QB of the future, and more importantly - why his flaws won't continue to hold him back
Sell me on this guy. Because he's not doing it.

 

[fansince62]

Griffin has thrown 200 more passes in his career, than McCoy - yet many are calling for patience on Rg3, while stamping McCoy a career backup ?
That's backwards logic
Yea, I remember 2012. But Rg3 will most likely never play again in that 2012 offense again.
Colt had a crappier supporting cast in Cleveland, than Rg3 has in DC. And then he was stuck behind a then-thriving Kapernick.
Then in DC, when we can finally compare Apples To Apples, and settle this once and for all, he thrives far more than Rg3 in the very same offense.
Yet, Colt is pre-destined to be a career backup, but Rg3 gets perpetual time to continue to try to prove himself.
Doesn't add up

btw....

- mccoy has never thrown more than 2 TDs in any game and...far as I can tell never more than 250 yds in a game

- didn't play in 2013

- played in one game in 2012

- lost 4 games and won 3 in 2011 before the infamous concussion

- 5 losses and 2 wins in 2010

Pray tell...what is scintillating about that record?

 

[Primus Porcus]

fansince, i think we agree. My post was just in response to the statement about Paul being in the NFL and that ball needs to be caught. That is 100% true but to look at that play and say the only shortcoming of it was Paul because he's an NFL player and should be good enough to make the catch is an unfair statement. Yes, he SHOULD have caught it, but he wasn't helped by a less then on target ball thrown by a QB who might have been under duress. That was not executed by anyone involved.

To say Paul should have caught it because he is in the NFL is no different then saying Griffin should have made a better throw/read, equally because HE is also in the NFL.

 

[fansince62]

read the last part of the post you just quoted...

sure...griffin could have made a better throw. where does that insight get us analytically? paul should have made the catch.

I get your point ST: there was more than one factor in play. but the standard of making a perfect pass every time may not be appropriate. looked at another way - I think there are better examples of the point you are trying to make. I think the better argument is that griffin's mechanics and read speeds are not up to snuff. a mnore solid argument can be made there.

but, then again, I defer to the fallback argument that so much sucks around him that's it's hard to tell how good he really is/isn't.

 

[Primus Porcus]

sure...griffin could have made a better throw. where does that insight get us analytically? paul should have made the catch.

I AGREE WITH YOU. Be fair with the analysis. I'm seriously just speaking with an analysis of all parties involved in the play. If someone wants to grade Paul down due to a failed catch attempt, then they have to look at all the pieces of the play, like you pointed out.

 

[fansince62]

And what is your argument ?
I would truly love to hear your full analysis and evidence, to support why you're so certain that RG is the QB of the future, and more importantly - why his flaws won't continue to hold him back
Sell me on this guy. Because he's not doing it.

1) I'm not here to sell you...any more than you are here to sell me.

2) You made an argument that really wasn't an argument.

I'm not in the game of deliberating whether he is "the guy". I'm looking at the bigger picture and concluding there is so much imploding around him that there is no way anyone can arrive at a firm conclusion. there are too many factors in involved. the whole team has been collapsing. additionally, I don't see anyone offering up any viable alternatives. I find the notion laughable that because a guy who has never thrown more than 2 TDs, has never had a winning NFL record, beat the hapless Titans by two points, threw a pick in the endzone but benefitted from outstanding CB play and threw 200 fewer passes the RG is somehow the magic potion!

 

[Elephant]

That's BS. Paul was responsible. It's the NFL, man. Those passes are expected to be completed.

Really? Donovan McCrapp throws dirt worms and everyone screams how shitty the pass is, Griffin throws one at a receivers feet and he bears no responsibility for the poor pass?

That sir, is bullshit!

 

[Primus Porcus]

I never suggested moving to McCoy. Like you i'm looking at the big picture to see that viewing the team. I don't think Griffin should be benched unless the F.O. has come to the conclusion that he's not the QB of the future. There are so many other things we need to fix before we start making a decision about QB. Next offseason we NEED to make a choice about him. Whether that choice be to exercise his 5th season, to NOT exercise his 5th season and give him a chance to earn an extension next year, or to go in a different direction... these 6 games are going to be a huge part of that analysis.

I agree with the ailing line, and struggling defense being HUGE factors. I'm not ready to give up on Griffin but watching him throw a ball on the run to Paul's feet doesn't exactly scream confidence either.

 

[Fear The Spear]

I'm not in the game of deliberating whether he is "the guy". I'm looking at the bigger picture and concluding there is so much imploding around him that there is no way anyone can arrive at a firm conclusion. there are too many factors in involved. the whole team has been collapsing. additionally, I don't see anyone offering up any viable alternatives. I find the notion laughable that because a guy who has never thrown more than 2 TDs, has never had a winning NFL record, beat the hapless Titans by two points, threw a pick in the endzone but benefitted from outstanding CB play and threw 200 fewer passes the RG is somehow the magic potion!

Why is it not possible to grade a player on his performance, regardless of what's going on around him ?
It's just not that hard to zero in on a player's performance, and analyze it for what it is, without respect to what other players are doing.
NFL scouts do that all the time with college players. How do you think they determine whether a college player has NFL potential, since obviously the potential draftee's whole resume is against college-level players, and not NFL. And in many cases, they're not playing in an NFL-style offense. Scouts don't use that as an excuse, and throw up their arms, and say, "Well we can't judge this player's NFL potential, because he wasn't playing in an NFL environment".

Just once, can we forget about what the rest of the team is doing, and just put each QB under the microscope ?

With RG3, when he fails, it's always about what other players are doing wrong.
When McCoy does well, it's always about outside circumstances giving him good luck.

People bring up McCoy's past when talking about his potential, but they don't give him the same excuses they give RG, about having a bad supporting cast performance, at the time.
When he loses, it's his fault.
When he wins, it's only because some other factors outside of him

You have to be able to judge a QB for what he himself is doing.
If you're waiting for the perfect environment for him to be surrounded with all the right factors, you're going to be waiting your whole life for that environment.
This is not a science experiment, where we can control the environment and factors, for a perfect study. You work with what you have, to come to a conclusion.
As a matter of fact, it's actually MORE relevant to see how a QB performs when all the circumstances around him are not right - because he has to be able to handle pressure situations. I don't want a guy who only plays well under perfect circumstances. How a guy performs in constantly changing environments, is the truest test of his abilities.
Instead of using the surrounding environment as an excuse to call it a flawed study, the question should rather be - how did HE respond to the surrounding environment ? THAT'S the focus and the issue