Random Commanders Thoughts

[Lanky Livingston]

I've always believed the opposite to be true BB. At least for the last fifteen years. Members of this board excluded.

I attribute much of that to the fact that most Skins fans under the age of 30 don't even know what a good football team looks like, so they have always overestimated our team in the past. In many cases, big mouths with nothing to back it up--prior to last season.

Before last season, I would rank our under 30 group near the bottom of the league.

The Steeler fans have always enjoyed a quiet confidence, knowing that their defense was likely to kill someone on the next play. They have been fortunate. And for offense, the Pats fans have witnessed the cutting edge for a long time now. Both of those fan bases know more about what a modern day top offense and defense look like.

Yeah, not a single one of them recognized how valuable an asset Ladell Betts was!!!!!!

 

[McD5]

Yeah, not a single one of them recognized how valuable an asset Ladell Betts was!!!!!!

Well that of course is stating the obvious.

I am referring to every other aspect of the game as well. Here are a few beliefs that were embarrassing, yet it didn't keep our younger fans from screaming championship every year:

Our receivers were as good as anyone else's in the division.

JC was a pro bowl QB.

Joe's running offense the second time around could ever compete in the modern day NFL.

Jim Zorn was a good hire.

Fat Al was the best defensive player in the league when we signed him. He was going to rock.

Clinton Portis was one of the best RBs in the league.

It's been painful to watch. Yep, I'd say that puts us pretty close to the bottom of the league.

 

[Burgundy Burner]

I'm just looking at the stats. In fact, I've spent the last couple of years looking at how many comments are tabulated by PFT and the Redskins responses are always at or near the top. Look at the size of several Redskins forums and as a collective bunch, they dwarf the other teams by far.

I can remember how popular the team was in the 1960s - a time when the futility matched those dreadful Cerrato and Norv years. The stadium would be sold out and the TV ratings were always the best. The coaching stunk up the joint and with the exception of a few stars, the teams of the '60s were a laughing stock.

All I know is that we are loyal and the number of fans is quite high. I'm not wavering on my opinion here.

 

[McD5]

In numbers, yes. No doubt about it. A huge and loyal fan base. And one that is craving to win.

In knowledge past 1995? I would kindly disagree.

 

[McD5]

Here's another embarrassment going on this minute on twitter, from some our "inside" fans--most of them younger.

Pop Quiz-- Everyone here is a GM in the league, with the benefit of hindsight. You want to field the best team in the next five years in the hopes of winning multiple championships. Knowing what we know now, would you rather be:

A. The Seattle Seahawks, who got great value on Wilson in the third round, and who kept two additional first round picks, and an additional second?

B. The Indianapolis Colts, who drafted Andrew Luck, and who kept two additional first round picks, and an additional second?

C. The Redskins, who now also have a great QB, but had to spend an additional two first round picks, and a second to get him? And this QB has now already had two ACL surgeries?

Is there a GM in the league that would choose choice C? Keep in mind that Vinny Cerrato is no longer employed.

By what you hear from boisterous Redskins fans on twitter, you would believe that C is the correct answer. It's as if none of them are capable of seeing the big picture.

 

[Goaldeje]

That's an impossible question, McD. I suppose the easy answer is that we would rather have the draft picks. But that might not be the correct answer, it's far too early to judge. Luck essentially took the team that Peyton Manning won with, and won with them himself. Wilson is a short QB running a gimmicky run-centered offense, once teams get tape, or Marshawn leaves, what do we have then?

If those guys excel and Griff is perpetually injured, then sure, it was a bad trade. But if Wilson turns out to be a one year wonder, and Luck ends up being above average but not dominant, and Griff is an all-timer, then screw the draft picks.

Too early to be asking these questions my man.

 

[McD5]

That's an impossible question, McD. I suppose the easy answer is that we would rather have the draft picks. But that might not be the correct answer, it's far too early to judge. Luck essentially took the team that Peyton Manning won with, and won with them himself. Wilson is a short QB running a gimmicky run-centered offense, once teams get tape, or Marshawn leaves, what do we have then?

If those guys excel and Griff is perpetually injured, then sure, it was a bad trade. But if Wilson turns out to be a one year wonder, and Luck ends up being above average but not dominant, and Griff is an all-timer, then screw the draft picks.

Too early to be asking these questions my man.

I loved the trade, and the move to get RG3. I didn't love the selfish stupidity of our coach playing him until he was severely injured, then lying about what the team Dr. said while he tried to hide from making possibly one of the worst coaching decisions in team history. That was cowardly.

Your comments about Wilson above could be made about RG3 as well, except RG3 is taller.

My point is that when you compare RG3 to Wilson or Luck, it's disingenuous to compare the QBs alone. In reality, it's:

Luck + 2 firsts and a second vs. RG3,

And Wilson + 2 firsts and a second vs. RG3

Going forward, the 2 ACLs swing the pendulum even further.

 

[Goaldeje]

OK, I have no problem with any of that. Once we see who everyone involved drafted, then give the draft picks a minimum of three years, which will take us to 4 years from now, THEN we can evaluate.

And Shanahan's coaching decisions are separate from the trade.

Right now? I'd take Griff over the other two (even factoring in the draft picks) any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The kid is driven and will make his teammates better (look at Santana with Rex under center vs. last year for an eye opening example). A lot of that has to do with intangible stuff and off the field stuff that maybe shouldn't be factored in.

Plus I watched him turn a moribund franchise around as a rookie.

 

[McD5]

you act like C is the wrong answer...and once again I am shaking my head wondering why one of our own would call us out like we are wrong.

With Luck already going to be gone no matter what we had to give what we did in hopes of moving up to get a QB who had ONE ACL surgery and a hell of a game.

and please, for the love of everything, dont act like you knew Wilson was going to be a good QB. Thats like saying you knew Alfred Morris would come in as a rookie and be the #2 RB in the league.

this monday morning QBing is ridiculous.



Oh, and PS, Portis WAS one of the best backs in the league. Stop acting like he wasnt because you are STILL stuck on Betts as a stud RB. Let me know what Betts did that was EVER close to 1200 yds per season his first 4 seasons in the pros.

I had no idea that Wilson was going to be good--I hardly knew anything about him.

I loved the RG3 move. It was the right pick and trade. Risking his next ten years just so Shanny could squeeze in one last ring was delusional, selfish and stupid.

Portis was an average RB who got a ton of carries. His YPC was average, his receiving was horrible, he was a baby in the locker room and to the media, he was no stranger to the fumble, and he cost a ton of money.

And he was pathetic in the playoffs.

Fans remember him as a bright spot on some incredibly awful teams, but he wasn't among the best in the league.

AM just beat his record in his very first year. Even Betts, who cost only 1/5th of what Portis cost, was on pace to crush his single season record.

Let's not act like he was a great RB.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

Well that of course is stating the obvious.

I am referring to every other aspect of the game as well. Here are a few beliefs that were embarrassing, yet it didn't keep our younger fans from screaming championship every year:

Our receivers were as good as anyone else's in the division.

JC was a pro bowl QB.

Joe's running offense the second time around could ever compete in the modern day NFL.

Jim Zorn was a good hire.

Fat Al was the best defensive player in the league when we signed him. He was going to rock.

Clinton Portis was one of the best RBs in the league.

It's been painful to watch. Yep, I'd say that puts us pretty close to the bottom of the league.

You can find these opinions among every fan base, McD. Take a break and go read some of Serv's Redskins Recons. Maybe he'll even do a special one, just to show some of the more outlandish opinions of NFL fanbases?

 

[McD5]

OK, I have no problem with any of that. Once we see who everyone involved drafted, then give the draft picks a minimum of three years, which will take us to 4 years from now, THEN we can evaluate.

And Shanahan's coaching decisions are separate from the trade.

Right now? I'd take Griff over the other two (even factoring in the draft picks) any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The kid is driven and will make his teammates better (look at Santana with Rex under center vs. last year for an eye opening example). A lot of that has to do with intangible stuff and off the field stuff that maybe shouldn't be factored in.

Plus I watched him turn a moribund franchise around as a rookie.

He is amazing, that is for sure. Which only makes me even more upset about the weasel-like decision by Shanny to risk him, then lie, then run and hide like a little pansy.

With what we know now, with the 2 ACLs, I am surprised that you would rather have him today, instead of the other healthy QBs mentioned, plus all of the other draft picks.

I hope that your confidence is rewarded. He has serious obstacles to overcome.

 

[McD5]

on pace? what pace? the half a season where he was given a ton of carries? he didnt even get 1000 yards.

His receiving was horrible? RB..RB..RB..what about Running back says receiving? He ran hard, blocked harder, and didnt fumble any more than any other RB.

but I know from ES that you are TOTALLY biased when it comes to Betts. Im not going to poke that hornet's nest today.

It's really not that important, but Betts ran for 1154 yards in 9 games one season. Well on pace to break the record.

Both RBs had a similar YPC, and of course Betts was the better receiver by far. Portis literally had some of the worst hands in the league for a RB, and when he did catch the ball, his YPC was much lower. Portis also fumbled more.

Portis also had the attitude problem, often threw people under the bus, then would vanish in playoff games.

When all things are considered, maybe both were about equal. Or maybe Portis was slightly better. But financially 5x better? No way. Betts was the better bang-for-the-buck.

One clear edge Portis had, and one great observation from Diesel many years ago, was his health over Betts. That was the biggest drawback to Betts.

Taking into consideration all of the holes on our team at that time, and the very obvious elephant in the room that the running attack of Joe 2 was never going to win us anything, Portis should have been traded two years before he retired.

But his contract was insane--he wasn't worth it. And no one was going to take that on. Dan and Vinny are to blame for that absurd contract.

On another note, I lost a ton of respect for Betts. On the heels of one of the greatest rushing seasons in NFL history, he was on pace for 2,051 yards--he should have immediately demanded a trade. He shouldn't have put up with that circus any longer. He didn't, which leads me to believe he lacked confidence in himself.

 

[tshile]

Well that of course is stating the obvious.

I am referring to every other aspect of the game as well. Here are a few beliefs that were embarrassing, yet it didn't keep our younger fans from screaming championship every year:

Our receivers were as good as anyone else's in the division.

JC was a pro bowl QB.

Joe's running offense the second time around could ever compete in the modern day NFL.

Jim Zorn was a good hire.

Fat Al was the best defensive player in the league when we signed him. He was going to rock.

Clinton Portis was one of the best RBs in the league.

It's been painful to watch. Yep, I'd say that puts us pretty close to the bottom of the league.

I fall into this category in some regards, I hated the haynesworth pick from the start not because I thought he'd suck but because I thought that was entirely too much money for a D lineman.

In my defense I have 1993 and forward to base things on. Hardly my fault. Though I suppose I could have invested more time in the other 31 teams and see what they were doing

Here's another embarrassment going on this minute on twitter, from some our "inside" fans--most of them younger.

Pop Quiz-- Everyone here is a GM in the league, with the benefit of hindsight. You want to field the best team in the next five years in the hopes of winning multiple championships. Knowing what we know now, would you rather be:

A. The Seattle Seahawks, who got great value on Wilson in the third round, and who kept two additional first round picks, and an additional second?

B. The Indianapolis Colts, who drafted Andrew Luck, and who kept two additional first round picks, and an additional second?

C. The Redskins, who now also have a great QB, but had to spend an additional two first round picks, and a second to get him? And this QB has now already had two ACL surgeries?

Is there a GM in the league that would choose choice C? Keep in mind that Vinny Cerrato is no longer employed.

By what you hear from boisterous Redskins fans on twitter, you would believe that C is the correct answer. It's as if none of them are capable of seeing the big picture.

I think you're glossing over some key things.

The colts lost their franchise QB and didn't have to make a move to replace him without skipping a beat. The seahawks were in rebuilding mode with a new coach and in almost everyone's opinion got lucky with Wilson. If they knew what they were getting you think he'd last into the 3rd round? 32 team passed on him twice and a handful a 3rd time.

We were also competing with the browns for griffin. We paid the price we had to to get him.

You're also acting like we know the outcomes of all 3 moves - we don't. It's going to take (hopefully) 10+ years to analyze the careers of these 3 guys.

 

[McD5]

Betts 245 for 1154
Portis 290 for 1591
Portis 274 for 1508

How much more did portis get used than betts?
Posted via BGO Mobile Device

Way too much more. But he was Dan's conduit to try to be cool. To try to be a celebrity.

Career rushes with Skins: Portis 1,677 attempts. Betts 776 attempts.

Portis was nepotistic. Like the guy we all know at work who is the son of the boss. The guy gets paid a ton, doesn't have to work as hard as others (practice), and is a whining baby.

Both players had very similiar stats. So either both were great, or Portis wasn't as great as fans made him out to be.

On another note, I'd kill to watch a Redskins preseason game right now. I'd be ready for the real games by halftime, but man I'd sure love to see a preseason game right now.

Not sure I can make it much longer.

 

[McD5]

Tshile, the under-30 comments weren't directed at you--hence, the present company excluded. You are a great fan.

I loved, and still love the RG3 move. IMHO, it was perfect.

I didn't love the Shanahan move.

I'm not leading a lynch mob, but I believe partially because of how bad we've been, that our fans don't realize just how bad multiple ACLs are. And how badly Shanny screwed up.

Guess how many NFL players in the entire history of the league have had 3 ACLs and were able to ever play another single snap. Even one single snap after having 3 ACL surgeries.

Take a guess......





One. And to say he's lost a step is an understatement. The second in history is trying it right now.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...mas-hopes-nfl-return-giants-article-1.1240319

 

[Henry]

Betts was a fine backup but he was far too fragile to ever be considered a starter in the NFL. He was constantly getting injured, even when he wasn playing spot-duty. That he survived one 9-game stretch is nice but there's no logical reason to expect that he would have survived a full 16 games to project this out, and it's certainly not a good enough reason to abandon an elite, extremely durable, very versatile back in his favor.

And yes, Portis was an elite back. From 2004-2008 Portis was top ten in rushing yards and yards from scrimmage every year except the one year he separated his shoulder. He also found the end zone, finishing top ten in rushing TDs twice in four years. Hell, he even scored more TDs in seven games the season he was hurt than Betts did during his Amazing Record-Breaking Nine Games of Wonder that very same season. With the Redskins Portis scored a TD once every 36 carries and once every 59 receptions, whereas with Betts it was once every 59 carries and once every 55 receptions.

Portis was also a much better pass-blocker than Betts and while he wasn't exactly Brian Westbrook, he was a competent receiver. During the four healthy years he played here he averaged 36 catches for 264 yards, which is fine for a workhorse full-time running back who gets over 320 carries a season. Every season. Of course a change-up back will have a better yards per catch than an every down back. That's basic football.

And no, Portis did not fumble more. The one time Betts actually carried the ball more than 90 times in a season he fumbled the ball six times. The only time Portis had that many fumbles in a season he touched the ball 75 more times than Betts did. In their respective careers with the Redskins, Portis fumbled the ball once every 102.3 touches, while Betts fumbled once every 72.3 touches. Betts was not even close to Portis in his ability to protect the football.

All of these numbers. All of them, get worse for Betts and better for Portis if you include the non-Redskin teams they played for, which I haven't done.

Portis was a rare player who could do it all. He could run in in Shanahan's ZBS or he could pound it away in a Gibbs offense with the opposing defense scheming to take him away first, second and third. He was one of the very few bright spots in an otherwise awful era of Redskin football. Betts was a guy who, except for one glorious half season, could never stay on the field. He was a fine backup. He could come in and play a few downs or maybe even a few games and the offense wouldn't miss a beat. That was great. But to hold up nine games he played against the 83 that Portis did is not in any way, shape or form logical.

If someone thinks we should, as a team, never pay top-dollar for a top-notch RB, that's one thing. But that doesn't mean Portis wasn't one. Or that Betts was.

 

[McD5]

That's a great post Henry, but it really doesn't paint the real picture.

Putting all of the locker room Portis antics aside, your stats above leave out a few things. I don't have them handy, but there was a period of time where Portis literally had the worst hands as a receiver of any player in the league. I'll try and locate the article. I believe it was a two year period, in reference to dropped passes. His hands were awful.

He was a very good blocker, but he unfortunately laid out so hard on many of those blocks, that he could not then go out for a release pass. That was not the case with Betts.

I need to look over the fumbling stats again before commenting on them. I may be incorrect.

I would never call him elite.

Elite players show up in playoff games.....when it really counts. That was the biggest differentiating factor between Portis and Riggins.

I am leaving for sushi now, so I'll come back to this within 24 hours to see if I can find the dropped passes stat, and to check on the fumbles.

 

[tshile]

Tshile, the under-30 comments weren't directed at you--hence, the present company excluded. You are a great fan.

You're being too nice

I'm freely admitting that I think your opinion on that is spot on. I'm also free admitting that I fall into that category, as much as it pains me. I take no offense to anything you said, trust me

I thought JC was an underrated QB and was a victim of his environment - I still think that. I think Ramsey and JC were ruined by a professionally-bankrupt organization playing fantasy football. I was on the 6-2 Zorn bandwagon. When Zorn was fired I firmly believed the problem was upper management, again. Sure - Zorn wasn't the best, but I thought our problems stemmed from him having his balls cut off from the day he was hired. Remember - he was supposed to be an OC and was forced into HC when no one else would take the job.

So as much as it hurts I unfortunately fall into most of what you said My goal isn't to defend those positions, just admit that in the grand scheme of things I was trying to over-analyze reasons why the team wasn't successful instead of realizing we just weren't a good team - or organization. I was wrong in that regard - though the organization problems were true.

I loved, and still love the RG3 move. IMHO, it was perfect.

I didn't love the Shanahan move.

I didn't like the Shanahan move and I certainly respect what your opinions on the RG3 move are (and I understand you liked it.) I just think the jury is still out on all 3 guys.

 

[Henry]

That's a great post Henry, but it really doesn't paint the real picture.

Putting all of the locker room Portis antics aside, your stats above leave out a few things. I don't have them handy, but there was a period of time where Portis literally had the worst hands as a receiver of any player in the league. I'll try and locate the article. I believe it was a two year period, in reference to dropped passes. His hands were awful.

Welp, for your benefit I googled 'portis dropped passes' just to see what I could find, and nothing useful came up. I then tried 'dropped passes nfl' and found this:

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2012/

According to this site, Portis had two ... not great years in that category.

In 2005 he had a drop rate of 14.63%. That put him at 27th worst in the league. Behind that other not-elite RB Adrian Peterson.

In 2008 his drop rate was 11.11%. That put him at tied for 41st worst ... I think. I was starting to lose track.

In 04, 06, and 07 his drop rate was pretty boring. Somewhere between 5% and 8.7%.

See this is the thing. People remember something. Probably a bad drop. Or a few bad drops in a row or something, and then project it upon his entire career. That's exactly how it was with the fumbles. He had one not great season regarding fumbles (this I don't have to look up. I remember it from talking about this many times before). One season he fumbled the ball 6 times ... and suddenly people think he's a fumbler. He wasn't. He had one bad season in that category.

So when people argue that he was not elite, what they are really arguing is that he wasn't PERFECT. Well, I concede that. He did drop the ball sometimes. And he did fumble sometimes.

But you know what? So did everyone else.

He was a very good blocker, but he unfortunately laid out so hard on many of those blocks, that he could not then go out for a release pass. That was not the case with Betts.

Unless you were the coach and told him to stop committing to his blocks and go out for a pass, I'm not sure you have a point here.

Elite players show up in playoff games.....when it really counts. That was the biggest differentiating factor between Portis and Riggins.

Now that's a fair point. Portis was not Riggins. I've argued THAT many times in the past as well. Then again, nobody, and I mean nobody, can match Riggins in the playoffs. Not Emmitt Smith. Not Sweetness. Nobody.

Speaking of Sweetness ... did you know that in nine playoff games he only had one 100 yard rushing game, averaged 3.51 yards a carry and only scored 2 TDs?

OJ Simpson ... One playoff game. 15 rushes for 49 yards. No TDs.

Huh.

 

[HOF44]

You guys gotta quit living in the past!!!! Haven't you heard we a have GREAT QB about to be bigger than the team, and maybe even someday president or even the next Madden. We need all hands on deck! lol