Haynesworth inactive

[Bulldog]

should have taken the #4 pick from the Titans at the trade deadline.

even if Shanahan wanted to turn Haynesworth around in February, by October it should have been apparent that wasn't going to happen.

so, instead of having another 2011 draft choice to select a player that may be able to help the team in the future, the Redskins are most likely going to release him and receive no compensation back.

The Redskins bungled Haynesworth's arrival into town with a ridiculous contract that no winning team would have given him and bungled his departure by not getting something for him.

 

[Lanky Livingston]

I agree...should have gotten something for him when we could.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

I cannot believe that someone actually said a player should have no say in how he is used.


the only thing I can say is that when you take a racehorse and tie him to a cart, or take a draft horse and put him the kentucky derby... you damn well better have lowered expectations.

As a DC I have dealt with some ego cases, but in each case I managed to find a common ground and got them to work within my systems, (note I said systems because I honestly believe that if you cannot adjust your system to your players, you are not much of a coach). I would not take a beast of a 3 tech and try to turn him into a pylon, I would not take a superlative edge rusher and expect him to drop into coverage, but thats just me.

As a player I have had coaches try to convert me to different things based more on superficial stuff than tangible reasons, I went from playing DE/ Olb at 275-280 to playing 3 tech DT at 300-330, in university after the failed nostackle experiment, the team even had a CFL hall of fame guest coach try to convince me that at 27 years old after a major knee issue, I could be drafted if I switched to left Tackle lmao. I will say, only once did a coach ever try to force anything on me and I ended up leaving that team rather than play a position I wasnt suited for. after high school, and into college, a player knows what a player is best at, if it means the difference between making a team at a different position and not playing most will at least try.

 

[Elephant]

I cannot believe that someone actually said a player should have no say in how he is used.

It was the wrong choice in words. I was rushed to get my point across before I had to do something. I should have taken the time to clearly state my point before I posted. You understand what it's like to be rushed to get your point across, you type fast and don't take the time to correct your mistakes, don't you?

I should have said, no player has the right to demand how they are used in the process holding the team hostage to a three ring circus atmosphere if they don't! They can give all the input they want but their boss, in this case the coach of the team who has been given that authority, has the final say! And if they don't want to play in that situation, they don't have to. They can sit out! Simple! What is the old addage, **it runs down hill. Well...

Look, you and fansince62 have made it abundantly clear you blame this on Shanahan. You sit on your lofty perch looking down at the rest of us with disdain because you are a greater mind than all of us because we just won't accept your point of view!

We understand Ryman, you blame Shanahan because he didn't succumb to the whim of a player who is his subordinate. I agree! We should not have switched to the 3-4! We have that train of thought in common!!!

But Albert Hayensworth bears more of the responsibility in this ongoing saga than Mike Shanahan! At this point I don't give two ****s about your experience in the football world. You are the Grand Puba of football knowledge. But when it comes to dealing with trouble maker employees, you do not hold a monopoly. Do you have some insight we may not because of your experience? Sure! Does it make you right? No! But again, you sit on your lofty perch and condemn us all if we don't agree with you.

We get your point! Big Al had a part to play in this, but Shanahan is to blame! We are going to have to agree to disagree! But of course, you won't leave it at that! You are the great Ryman of the North! You are the end all/be all of this argument!

 

[Go Deep]

I cannot believe that someone actually said a player should have no say in how he is used.

Ryman, i totally disagree with you also.

-As a player you're not responsible for the WHOLE team.

-As a player you don't have the experience or know-how to know what works or doesn't when it comes to being successful as a younger player compared to experienced coaches.

It's just immature to think this way as a player. Do i understand why some players may think they know best, of course i do, everybody "thinks" they know best, but very few are responsible for what they may think.

I'm kinda shocked after reading the latest from Shanahan about this. He tried to compromise from the very get go. The only real question Shanahan should have asked was, are you going to committ to NT? He should have been done with him then, like bulldog said, so we could have atleast got something in return.

 

[Miles Monroe]

on the flip side...businesses that don't know how to use their talent effectively eventually find themselves out of business.

oh yea...leadership, team building, etc., is more than just giving orders.

as an afterthought....shouldn't the Skins be suspending about 80-90% of the starting offense and defense? these people are clearly not executing as "directed".

Your correct in that leadership is more then just giving orders. I personally interviewed every person that was being considered for hire in the service department. I also had to deal with upper management, parts department personal, and sales, and sub contractors. That's where the real subtlety came in actually, dealing with the other departments to maximize the shops output.

As for the after thought...... There's a big difference because we're comparing a business where things are pretty much black and white, to a sport. That being said, you can't go be execution on the field completely, more the attempt at execution. If a player is practicing as asked, is on time for all activities, and plays his part in the system as asked, he's doing his job. He may not be successful all the time in his assignment because of the countless variables created by others on the field, or flat out brain farts. That's why you evaluate players, and as we've seen, the ones with a low success rate on the field have been slowly weeded out this season.

It like when the safety makes a bad judgment, and doesn't roll coverage over to help the corner, and there's a big reception. Everybody looks at the corner as blowing the coverage, even though the safety was supposed to pick up coverage on the deep rout. So many variables in a sport like football.

A tech has an engine that has a miss fire, he alone is responsible to find the problem and fix it.

Sure, if you want to look at this like it's a video game, we should cut at least 93% of the team.....

PS:I was also an officer in the fire service, and coached soccer for 4 seasons. I know a hell of a lot more about leading groups of people then you realize.

 

[Boone]

I find it funny that people still think Shanny was not at fault. I dont think AH was innocent by any stretch, he is an asshat of epic proportions but he did want to play and he did ask several times to be put in at DE in the 3-4 even shannahn admitted that, he also admitted that he wanted AH to play more at NT and AH flat out said he wasnt suited for it. Ill be frank the real losers here are the redskins fans and the team.

I honestly haven't seen anyone say Shanahan isn't at least partially to blame.

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

ive seen several NFL talking heads who are taking shanny's side, oddly enough all former coaches lol, and even when some people admit that shanny is at least somewhat to blame they add the caveat " he should have just cut him or he should have taken the 4th rounder" when truthfully this began with the 3-4 wiener measuring contest at the very start.

 

[Elephant]

ive seen several NFL talking heads who are taking shanny's side, oddly enough all former coaches lol, and even when some people admit that shanny is at least somewhat to blame they add the caveat " he should have just cut him or he should have taken the 4th rounder" when truthfully this began with the 3-4 wiener measuring contest at the very start.

It started when an over paid, prima donna came into this organization with his own agenda! It started long before Shanahan got here! It simply came to a boiling point when the new boss decided to take this defense in a different direction! Yes, we agree it was a foolish move to change schemes, but wake up to the fact that it did not matter who the coach was, what the scheme was, that fat, lazy piece of dirt would have been a cancer regardless!

Which is a damn shame because given the motivation, Albert Haynesworth could be great. Problem is, it wouldn't matter how Shanahan used him, he would not give it his all. He doesn't care about anything but his own selfish ends!

 

[Rymanofthenorth]

See Elephant, heres my take, when he was brought here he was promised he would be used to his best ability. last year we ran a soft 4-3 and he actually was forced to two gap quite often, at first he bit his lip and did it, after an entire season of it he had enough and had his little fit. at the time many of us had been screaming to ramp up the aggression on defence but still when he said that he was pilloried. the way he went about it was dumb but at a time when nobody else would openly say it he did.

I think the earlier poster had it bang on, had we hired a solid 4-3 coordinator and had we actually used our players to the best of their abilities, you would have seen something far different. I dont read much into "anonymous sources" when it comes to these things, and I also dont read much into it when bench guys or marginal players criticise all stars, thats normal on any team, I do however take very seriously when people who have no vested interest comment openly. either way, like I said, there is no winner here, the people doing little dances of glee about this are morons, because we lost on several levels, there was nothing worth celebrating here even for Shannahan. if you think otherwise? you arent much of a fan to be happy when your team loses bigtime.

 

[fansince62]

ive seen several NFL talking heads who are taking shanny's side, oddly enough all former coaches lol, and even when some people admit that shanny is at least somewhat to blame they add the caveat " he should have just cut him or he should have taken the 4th rounder" when truthfully this began with the 3-4 wiener measuring contest at the very start.

well...AH is a widget...let's face it. get rid of him. don't care anymore.

so we can focus exclusively on what a failure Shanahan has been.

 

[Boone]

I don't know Al...I'm not saying Shanahan gets a pass...the decision to stubbornly stick with a 3-4 defense alone is questionable...but it is year 1. Gutting him as 'horrendous' when he inherited a culture, roster, and support that could only get 4 wins the season prior - that just sounds extreme to me.

I'm not trying to beat on you - but it's his first season. Gibbs had relatively starts both the first go-round and upon his return. Would I feel better if we were playing better as the season progressed as those Joe Gibbs teams did? Yeah - of course. But it's also fair to say this team has had more than it's share of injuries, often at positions we could ill-afford them. And the schedule has not been all that kind either.

If you've made up your mind on the Shanahan era after just 12 games, I think you'd made up your mind before he ever began. You're also going to be eating more crow than we've got in storage if he turns it around. Epic crow. We may have to make a crow run just for you

And you think Shanahan has gotten a pass from the media? Seriously? He's been pummelled repeatedly this year.

 

[Elephant]

See Elephant, heres my take, when he was brought here he was promised he would be used to his best ability. last year we ran a soft 4-3 and he actually was forced to two gap quite often, at first he bit his lip and did it, after an entire season of it he had enough and had his little fit. at the time many of us had been screaming to ramp up the aggression on defence but still when he said that he was pilloried. the way he went about it was dumb but at a time when nobody else would openly say it he did.

I think the earlier poster had it bang on, had we hired a solid 4-3 coordinator and had we actually used our players to the best of their abilities, you would have seen something far different. I dont read much into "anonymous sources" when it comes to these things, and I also dont read much into it when bench guys or marginal players criticise all stars, thats normal on any team, I do however take very seriously when people who have no vested interest comment openly. either way, like I said, there is no winner here, the people doing little dances of glee about this are morons, because we lost on several levels, there was nothing worth celebrating here even for Shannahan. if you think otherwise? you arent much of a fan to be happy when your team loses bigtime.

I can buy into this to a degree, but my point is there was no pleasing Albert Haynesworth no matter what we did from the time he signed his contract. Look, I was one of those fans who said, "Great!" when I heard he had been signed. He filled a need that cost us no draft picks, he was young and I thought he had matured. I did not know enough.

But it did not matter if we played him how he was most useful or even where he wanted to play, he would have found something to complain about. There is enough info out there to make the call that Albert Haynesworth is of questionable character and would likely never perform to his abilities because he had no motivation left since he got paid his money, before Shanahan got here. The only time he displayed motivation was when he aboslutely needed to, like a contract year.

Now as far as Shanahan goes, we have discussed that a little. I agree with your assertion that we should never have attempted the 3-4 experiment. We weren't the only ones to question this philosophy, even from the very beginning. I still think jury is out on the McNabb trade. I know you feel he is not the answer and I am inclined to believe that we wasted picks. It looks like we could have had Colt McCoy and done just as well this year with Rex Grossman. But I have the luxury of retrospect. These 2 decisions have left me wondering if Mike Shanahan is indeed the answer here in DC. I was a little disappointed last year when I saw he was the direction Allen and Snyder decided to go.

With that said, I still think we need to give Shanny some time. He is not going anywhere for now, I just hope we see some moves over the next month that suggest he is looking toward the future, like playing younger players to see what they have. Selvish Capers and Eric Cook should not only be brought up, but they should play! Sit Trent Williams and Jamaal Brown for the rest of the season to get healthy, once and for all, like they did with Malcolm Kelly.

We'll see!

 

[riggins44]

on the flip side...businesses that don't know how to use their talent effectively eventually find themselves out of business.

oh yea...leadership, team building, etc., is more than just giving orders.

as an afterthought....shouldn't the Skins be suspending about 80-90% of the starting offense and defense? these people are clearly not executing as "directed".

Very true, guess why we've been in business 82 years. You also have to remember can't let the inmates run the asylum.

There comes a time you have to make tough personnel decisions. In the end you must do what is best for everyone. You have to be fair, not equal. Regardless how good someone is you can't let them pull everyone else down and hurt the overall moral.

 

[Ax]

I don't recall the exact details, but I remember Sonny telling a story that went like this.

The Skins were in the red zone (not called the red zone then) Kilmer got hurt, and Sonny was going into the game. It was 3rd down. Allen told Sonny to, "Run a draw, and we'll kick the field goal". Sonny went in, called a pass play, and threw a touchdown. As he walked off the field, Allen said, "I told you to run a draw!". Sonny lied and said the defense was saying, "Watch for the draw"

Allen benched Sonny in favor of the 3rd string QB for the rest of the game.

Sometimes, players don't do what they're told to.
And sometimes even great coaches can be dick heads.

 

[Elephant]

Sometimes, players don't do what they're told to.
And sometimes even great coaches can be dick heads.

Yup, but the big difference between your anecdote and how it relates to AH is that Sonny was not a selfish player who went around doing anything he wanted and tearing down the coach in the media!

I agree, there are situations that occur on the football field that warrant an audible, it's part of the game. The 1982 NFC Title game is one that comes to mind. Gibbs sent in a play on 1st mid way through the 4th quarter with the Redskins leading and Russ Grimm stood in the huddle and said, "No! 50 gut!" Riggins reeled off a big gain behind Grimm running through Randy White. Gibbs sent in another play, Grimm did the same thing with the same result. Finally Gibbs understood and they reeled off 7 or 8 runs to end the game. There is a situation that the coach probably made the right call in theory, maybe not, but the players knew what needed to be done.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe Albert Haynesworth is no Russ Grimm, Peyton Manning, or Sonny Jurgenson. These guys cared about the team first! They did not go against the coach because they didn't want to follow his orders because they didn't like him or the scheme they were playing. They saw something on the field that the coach might not see and called audibles. Huge difference!

How about Jeff Bostic? He was benched for a rookie in the year that we won our 2nd SB. He wanted to be traded, he expressed his displeasure, but he continued to practice and kept it out of the media. Granted there was less access to the players then, but Bostic did what was asked of him and when the time came he went in and did his job.

 

[Ax]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe Albert Haynesworth is no Russ Grimm, Peyton Manning, or Sonny Jurgenson. These guys cared about the team first! They did not go against the coach because they didn't want to follow his orders because they didn't like him or the scheme they were playing.

My point was to show that, contrary to some statements throughout the thread, players DO disobey orders, at times.

Allen hated Sonny, and would have gotten rid of him were it not for the mutiny it would have caused, on the team, and in the city. Likewise, Sonny didn't like Allen either.

BTW, what Sonny did was no audible. He intentionally changed the play to show up Allen. Allen benched him to prove his was bigger. Both, were in spite of the other.

And, if the Allen/Gibbs1 teams had to face the media's 24/7, intrusive, "gotcha", pit of vipers that we face today, more would have gotten out.

I can practical guarantee it.

 

[riggins44]

Players do disobey orders sometimes and coaches aren't always right. The vast majority of these players do consider their teammates first. There is a bond and chemistry among the players.

As mentioned above, Grimm or Sonny would go to war for any of their teammates. Regardless of how Sonny felt about George Alle, he was a good teammate and would show up for practice and gave it his all. Haynesworth is all about him first then the team and teammates.

 

[Henry]

I heard Schlereth talking about Haynesworth this morning on Mike and Mike, and he was going OFF on Haynesworth. While he said that the Redskins should have known better than to sign a guy who takes 4 out of every 7 plays off to such a huge contract, Albert is 100% to blame for this situation. (Not a point I personally agree with) Obviously, Schlereth played for Shanahan for years and that will probably cloud his opinion, but he did make one interesting point.

He said that even in a 3-4, when you go into a nickel package you are basically running a 4-3 and that Haynesworth would have had 20-25 snaps a game to do what he liked to do if he had just gotten on board, and that he was either too stupid or too selfish to realize it.

I don't know about the specifics of various schemes to know how accurate that is, but I did find it interesting in light of the arguments presented in some of the threads here in Albert's defense. Perhaps those with playing experience (Ryman) could comment?

 

[Ax]

Players do disobey orders sometimes and coaches aren't always right. The vast majority of these players do consider their teammates first. There is a bond and chemistry among the players.

As mentioned above, Grimm or Sonny would go to war for any of their teammates. Regardless of how Sonny felt about George Alle, he was a good teammate and would show up for practice and gave it his all. Haynesworth is all about him first then the team and teammates.

All true. I was merely trying to dispute what appears to be a blanket statement, that good players always do what they are told.

It'd be interesting to see how today's media people would respond to Riggins not practicing because of his numerous hangovers, and him walking out of practice when he felt like it.

We were winning, so the coaches and players looked the other way. And the fans never knew. And the media didn't care.

Times is different now.

And for the love of God, I'm not comparing AH to any former Redskin greats. Just pointing to some similarities in certain situations.
(this is meant for anyone in general, and not you personally r44)