McCloughan's draft plan

[Om]

the beauty of America! we are free to disagree!

1) now you are twisting the argument....from winning to success. two different things.

No sir.

You said "players and coaches have to want to succeed as well and make the 1000% commitment to do so. not so sure that is the case with this HC."

I have maintained and continue to maintain that making that suggestion is nonsense.

2 ) he did everything, you are asking, is to be accepted on faith. that is an easy belief to defeat - doing everything doesn't include belittling your QB publicly. anyone who has been in a leadership position knows that is a leadership 101 "don't do".

You sure? What if getting called out in public in this instance turns out to be exactly the kick in the ass and/or motivation Robert needed? Like Parcells calling Terry Glenn "she," or Singletary calling out Vernon Davis, who has since said that probably saved his career?

Not saying it will be ... and no it probably wouldn't be my style, but I allow for the possibility that the million interactions they had that you and I didn't see may have led up to that in a way that makes perfect sense. Perhaps it's time to put down your 101 handbook and allow for the possibility professional sports in the 21st century doesn't always fit neatly into such a convenient rhetorical package.

right...it flies in the face of everything except results. you know...the same thing everyone plays "j'accuse" with Griffin.

Wait ... you mean results as in "winning?" Or "success?" Let's be sure we stay consistent.

it has been in the media for months now, repeating a theme, that Gruden did not want Griffin as his QB. if not...why play him at all? why anoint him the starter before training camp has even begun? either you go with what you think are the best options for winning - or there are other motives, intentions, factors in play.

Same place we started. You think Jay has "other motives" than success. Or winning. Which I still think is nonsense and you've done nothing to even remotely support.

 

[stevenaa]

What I see is a lot of sentimentality and wishing being put forward in place of logic and common sense. People fall in love with players at some level and have trouble separating desire and hope from reality. That becomes the prism through which 'the facts' are viewed. I've been a victim of that mentality but my eyes are wide open these days.

^^^ It's not about the player, it's about the results. I don't care who you are or at what position you where drafted. Perform or go away. I don't care if you were a world beater 2 years ago. If you can't do it now, it's time to go. I don't get emotionally invested in them. It's nothing more than a business to them, and I have no problem with that. Too many are spoiled, egocentric, overpaid prima-donnas. If a player gets hurt, replace him. Move on. Whatever is in the best interest of the team overall. I do appreciate special players when they are performing and when I look back on their careers, but once they stop producing, it's time to move on. There's no place for sentimentality.


Regardless of the multitude of reasons he's not succeeding, the plain fact is he is not and it's easy to see on the field. You don't need stats or professional opinion to see he struggles mightily with some very basic elements of the pro passing game. Yes his development has been impaired by injury, poor Oline play, and poor coaching decisions. But all that does not matter as to where we are right now with RG. He's going into year four having played last year like a lower round Rookie. He has to demonstrate this year he is the long term solution, and just some minor incremental improvement isn't going to get it done.

 

[stevenaa]

While I'd like to give gruden the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intentionally make Robert look bad; it's not looking good in his favor.

He installed an offense that was not tailored to any of the quarterbacks we have yet wouldn't play to Roberts strengths.

His continually calling Robert out during press conferences.

The rumors you hear of how he didn't like Robert, the rolling of the eyes, etc. None of those things scream "good coach who is here for you"

The playing mccoy over Griffin even though mccoy had a injured neck.

All of these things make it appear that he really just doesn't like Robert. The problem with that is this isn't a popularity contest. He was hired as a qb guru and brought in to (let's be honest) get Robert back on track and make him the qb of the future. Well, now we have these 2 bickering and a qb who now isn't even on social media yet being talked about every day because of what the coach is saying.

All of which could also more rationally be attributed to Griffin not getting it and/or not putting in the effort Gruden was demanding of him. Which is more likely? A coach intentionally sabotaging a player and intentionally causing losses, or a player getting in the coaches dog house for a myriad of legitimate reasons that we as fans would not be privy too? Gruden intentionally sabotaging RG does not pass the smell test in any way. He may have been inflexible in his style of game, insisting that RG learn to do things he isn't comfortable with or capable of, but to insinuate he was doing things to intentionally undermine RG is nonsense IMO. It's a much more rational supposition that Gruden is a bad coach and is incapable or unwilling to install a more RG friendly offense.

 

[MikeSr619]

All of which could also more rationally be attributed to Griffin not getting it and/or not putting in the effort Gruden was demanding of him. Which is more likely? A coach intentionally sabotaging a player and intentionally causing losses, or a player getting in the coaches dog house for a myriad of legitimate reasons that we as fans would not be privy too? Gruden intentionally sabotaging RG does not pass the smell test in any way. He may have been inflexible in his style of game, insisting that RG learn to do things he isn't comfortable with or capable of, but to insinuate he was doing things to intentionally undermine RG is nonsense IMO. It's a much more rational supposition that Gruden is a bad coach and is incapable or unwilling to install a more RG friendly offense.

The proof is in his words during conferences when he intentionally says things like "Robert needs to learn his place" when he doesn't need to sound like that, or "Robert is the starter" when there is no need to announce a starter of any position in march. Nobody understands why he said that. Nobody.

So, sure, it could be the 23 year old who isn't putting in the work. Or it could be the 47 year old acting like a spoiled child (like his brother), or it could be a combo of both and it needs to be ironed out.

Just getting rid of Robert won't change gruden from being an asshole. Getting rid of gruden won't solve Griffin from not being able to be a dropback quarterback. The faster they realize it the better off we all are. Because right now it's colt ****ing mccoy sitting in the wings....and I want nothing to do with that.

 

[Om]

Steven, No argument, but I'd love to see a working definition of an "RG friendly offense." Wouldn't it almost have to include a few plays that call for him to drop back, make basic reads and throw the ball?

Everything I've heard, seen and read since last preseason was that Robert struggled mightily to do so. What's a coach's option in an instance like that?

 

[Goaldeje]

Well that's good.

That does leave the possibility open you think he subconsciously did so though, right? That he somehow crafted game plans, or called plays not designed to max out on the ability of his starting QB, or some other less-than-optimal approach, thereby lessening his chances of winning?

If you're right, then yes. He needs to be fired.

And possibly committed.

Well then. That escalated quickly. I think the subconscious mind is a powerful tool that we don't come close to fully understanding. I would be hard pressed to fire someone for that.

The simple fact is that Gruden was brought in to "coach up" our QBs and he has failed. Miserably. I would fire him for THAT.

The minutia of attributing/blaming his motivations on his subconscious mind is irrelevant to me. Stevena posted below your post that results are what should dictate Robert be fired. My argument is simply that the same standard should be applied to Gruden. I'm NOT in favor of firing him this year, though I would have shed no tears had Scot made that decision. If we don't markedly improve our win totals this coming season however, I will be howling to have Gruden run out of town.

As for Robert, I personally think he is done here. I would be thrilled beyond belief if we got a mid round draft pick for him and both sides moved on. First of all, it would be good for Robert to get out of DC, imo. Secondly, it would remove any excuse that Gruden could point to for his own ineffectiveness, thus laying him bare to his, imo, inevitable firing after the 2015 season.

 

[Goaldeje]

What I see is a lot of sentimentality and wishing being put forward in place of logic and common sense. People fall in love with players at some level and have trouble separating desire and hope from reality. That becomes the prism through which 'the facts' are viewed. I've been a victim of that mentality but my eyes are wide open these days.

Oh come on. Sure, Robert provided me with one of the ONLY joyous seasons in my adult life, but I fully understand it's a result-based business. Shanahan ****ed Griffin's body over, and Gruden ****ed his mind over. He's done. I wish we would have treated him better, but we didn't. C'est la vie. The argument that the only reason I hate Gruden is because I love Griffin and I'm too homerific to see Griffin's faults is offensive. Griffin played like dogshit last year, and bears responsibility for a LARGE portion of that. I don't think it's insane though to acknowledge that his coach didn't like him, and his offensive line apparently thought the matador was an acceptable blocking technique. He could have been more successful elsewhere, but no matter where he was, he wasn't playing like Luck last year. I get it.

My issue is that Gruden made it worse. All of it. Griffin looked worse under Gruden than Shanahan. So did Cousins. And I thought Gruden was a QB whisperer...

 

[Boone]

Who said I was talking to you James? But there more than a few here who are making irrational arguments full of innuendo and conspiracy theories, and I believe it's because they are in love with the idea of RG3.

 

[Goaldeje]

Who said I was talking to you James? But there more than a few here who are making irrational arguments full of innuendo and conspiracy theories, and I believe it's because they are in love with the idea of RG3.

Fair enough. I think if one goes, they should both go. They failed each other.

EDIT: and it's ALWAYS about me. Duh.

 

[Om]

Goal,

Am I correct in reading your comments to mean you think Gruden is more responsible for Robert's poor play than Robert is?

 

[Goaldeje]

Goal,

Am I correct in reading your comments to mean you think Gruden is more responsible for Robert's poor play than Robert is?

At the risk of parsing phraseology, no. Griffin is responsible for his play, Gruden is responsible for putting him in the best possible situation to succeed. I'll go so far as to say that Griffin's play undermined my confidence in him immensely. I thought Robert was a superlative talent who could rise to the occasion and put the best version of himself froward even in trying situations. Well that theory is out the window. We can certainly attribute a lot of blame to Mike Shanahan for what happened with Robert Griffin, but again, Gruden made things worse. Griffin was apparently unable to rise above a mismanaged cluster**** (or unwilling, not sure which is worse) created by a rookie coach. That's why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point. Gruden created that mismanaged cluster****, which is why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point.

 

[fansince62]

Just cannot agree. Team building goes on in the offseason. During the season, Head Coaches have one clear focus:

You play to win the game.

The notion that any head coach would intentionally make a player look bad, and lose not only games but potentially his locker room in the process, to me is an extraordinary claim ... one that should require extraordinary evidence.

you keep marching down use cases of your own choosing.

it's not at all unreasonable to project the following:

- he's not my QB -> I don't have time to fix these problems->the FO/expectations when I was hired, etc., require that I play this hand out->it is not going to be my priority

the discussion then gets into the murky territory of what it means to be 1000% invested in winning. common sense, in my book is as fols: if I believe QB is the number one problem keeping my offense from succeeding, then that is where I am investing the bulk of my time. we know that didn't happen - we know Gruden was over-taken by the magnitude of his other responsibilities - he did not have the time to work with Griffin and the QBs - he has said as much. that is a major reason Cavanaugh is now on the staff. so winning is only one competing pull in a time management problem.

we know how Joe Gibbs handled the matter.

 

[micks113]

All he'd have to do is return to 2012 form to do what you said. So, yes, I think it's possible.

I keep hearing this from posters and it isn't true. Yes he won rookie of the year. But that is for rookies, he was not the best QB in the league far from it.

Let's put this in real simple terms for you to understand. Grade school stuff. We don't just want the 2012 Griffin back. We have to have more. 10 wins won't make it. He needs to win more than 10 games. Got that? More than 10, don't stop at 10 because that's all the fingers you have. We need more than 10 to win the division. The problem with that is that Griifin cannot stay healthy for 10 games much less win them. It ain't gonna happen fella. To top that off, not only will he not be here, he may not have a job in the nfl. Another injury in 2015, which is most likely, he will be untouchable for other teams. His "upside" will be gone and can't overcome the injury thing. Making him worthless, which is why most folks on here know that right now is his highest and best value for a trade.

So, the idea that "all he has to do is return to 2012 form" and all is good, is totally bogus.

 

[stevenaa]

Steven, No argument, but I'd love to see a working definition of an "RG friendly offense." Wouldn't it almost have to include a few plays that call for him to drop back, make basic reads and throw the ball?

Everything I've heard, seen and read since last preseason was that Robert struggled mightily to do so. What's a coach's option in an instance like that?

Frankly, most of the plays have to be drop back, pocket plays. The friendly part, IMO, would be more option type plays and rollouts to help keep the defense more off balance so they can't just tee off on the pass rush. However, we've see with our eyes, even when given time he struggles. And on the option plays he ran last year, he didn't look good or comfortable with them out side the early plays in the game he got hurt.

Maybe it's all confidence and fear at this point. He did make some plays from the pocket his first year. But we've seen him struggle enough with the basics the last two years that there has to be more to it than that. I also think the notion that Gruden was brought in to fix him is overblown. If I was hiring a coach it would be to get someone who could come in an evaluate his progress and decide how to move forward. Fixing him would be the preference, but realizing and accepting he may be broke beyond repair is needed if that's the case. Especially with an owner enamored with him who is more fan than boss and falls pray to what many other fans do in getting attached to the player, and the dream of what could be.

 

[MikeSr619]

I keep hearing this from posters and it isn't true. Yes he won rookie of the year. But that is for rookies, he was not the best QB in the league far from it.

Let's put this in real simple terms for you to understand. Grade school stuff. We don't just want the 2012 Griffin back. We have to have more. 10 wins won't make it. He needs to win more than 10 games. Got that? More than 10, don't stop at 10 because that's all the fingers you have. We need more than 10 to win the division. The problem with that is that Griifin cannot stay healthy for 10 games much less win them. It ain't gonna happen fella. To top that off, not only will he not be here, he may not have a job in the nfl. Another injury in 2015, which is most likely, he will be untouchable for other teams. His "upside" will be gone and can't overcome the injury thing. Making him worthless, which is why most folks on here know that right now is his highest and best value for a trade.

So, the idea that "all he has to do is return to 2012 form" and all is good, is totally bogus.

Simple terms I can understand?
Grade school stuff?

No matter what shit you posted after that I didn't bother reading it. Save that shit you're talking for Al.

 

[Om]

At the risk of parsing phraseology, no. Griffin is responsible for his play, Gruden is responsible for putting him in the best possible situation to succeed. I'll go so far as to say that Griffin's play undermined my confidence in him immensely. I thought Robert was a superlative talent who could rise to the occasion and put the best version of himself froward even in trying situations. Well that theory is out the window. We can certainly attribute a lot of blame to Mike Shanahan for what happened with Robert Griffin, but again, Gruden made things worse. Griffin was apparently unable to rise above a mismanaged cluster**** (or unwilling, not sure which is worse) created by a rookie coach. That's why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point. Gruden created that mismanaged cluster****, which is why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point.

You want to throw them both out?

The QB who may or may not see the career crossroads he is at this offseason, whom everyone understands is in put up or shut up mode in 2015, AND the head coach who just completed his rookie year after taking over a dysfunctional 3-13 franchise?

At least we have a reasonable body of work on the QB. The coach? After one year? In Washington?

I can understand the QB... I have my own serious doubts about the level of progress we'll see from Robert. But we have to at least take a look.

The coach, not so much. He did what rookie head coaches do taking over bad teams---try to find his way, learn on the job and wrestle the thing onto the right track.

We'll have no real sense of whether he succeeded or not until we see at least this year's team.

 

[stevenaa]

Griffin was apparently unable to rise above a mismanaged cluster**** (or unwilling, not sure which is worse) created by a rookie coach. That's why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point. Gruden created that mismanaged cluster****, which is why I'm fine with moving on from him at this point.

I think you have this backwards. What appeared to be a mismanaged cluster**** happened as a direct result of Roberts lack of progress. Was his lack of progress due to him not doing the right things, not doing it the way Gruden wanted or just not being capable we'll never know. But clearly Gruden's frustration manifested out of Roberts inability to progress. I don't think Robert was left to his own devices to figure it out. There was coaching going on. What I saw from Gruden was a coach totally frustrated with his QB and at a loss for how to get him moving in the right direction. That he did so publically tells me it was Roberts attitude and/or work ethic that had Gruden so frustrated. If it was as simple as Griffin just being incapable of getting it, it wouldn't be frustrating in that way, it would be depressing. It would also be much easier to cut ties and not keep giving him chances. IMO, Gruden sees the same possibility in RG that we do, but RG isn't getting it done of his own doing. That is the type of thing that is most frustrating to any coach/teacher. Some have asked repeatedly why Gruden named him starter. Maybe Gruden believes he can be the guy if he'll just do what's needed. Be it adjust his attitude, or change his work habits to focus on the proper things. All speculation of course, but just as easily accurate as Gruden hates him and has it out for him.

 

[Goaldeje]

Respectfully, I have a TERRIFIC sense of whether or not he succeeded. He did not. He failed. 4 wins = gross failure.

I understand we are unlikely to move on from EITHER of them right now (though a draft day trade isn't out of the question), but were McLovin to drop that bombshell, I wouldn't shed tears for either of them. We can discuss who is most at fault (Robert, Shanahan, or Gruden), but the simple fact is that I personally think Robert is done in Washington.

(I also think that's a damned shame, and a huge indictment of my favorite sports team)

And what I saw from Gruden last year was ineptitude. The guy couldn't lead his team out of a wet paper bag. Clueless. If I were playing on his team (picture some sort of unathletic doofus - maybe a 10th string kicker?), I'd be rolling my eyes everytime he talked about "playing as a team" or "supporting each other" or whatever. Leadership is a lot (apparently) like porn. Not quite sure how to define it, but I know when I DON'T see it, and I definitively did NOT see it last year from Jay Gruden.

The guy could prove me wrong and get everyone playing as a cohesive, focused unit this season, but I have my (major) doubts. I predict he's gone and this time next year we're talking about what ______ can do with the pieces Scot is assembling.

 

[Ax]

I keep hearing this from posters and it isn't true. Yes he won rookie of the year. But that is for rookies, he was not the best QB in the league far from it.

Let's put this in real simple terms for you to understand. Grade school stuff. We don't just want the 2012 Griffin back. We have to have more. 10 wins won't make it. He needs to win more than 10 games. Got that? More than 10, don't stop at 10 because that's all the fingers you have. We need more than 10 to win the division. The problem with that is that Griifin cannot stay healthy for 10 games much less win them. It ain't gonna happen fella. To top that off, not only will he not be here, he may not have a job in the nfl. Another injury in 2015, which is most likely, he will be untouchable for other teams. His "upside" will be gone and can't overcome the injury thing. Making him worthless, which is why most folks on here know that right now is his highest and best value for a trade.

So, the idea that "all he has to do is return to 2012 form" and all is good, is totally bogus.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but it's one of the most insulting posts I've seen around here.

As a fellow member, knock it off.

 

[Goaldeje]

I think you have this backwards. What appeared to be a mismanaged cluster**** happened as a direct result of Roberts lack of progress. Was his lack of progress due to him not doing the right things, not doing it the way Gruden wanted or just not being capable we'll never know. But clearly Gruden's frustration manifested out of Roberts inability to progress. I don't think Robert was left to his own devices to figure it out. There was coaching going on. What I saw from Gruden was a coach totally frustrated with his QB and at a loss for how to get him moving in the right direction. That he did so publically tells me it was Roberts attitude and/or work ethic that had Gruden so frustrated. If it was as simple as Griffin just being incapable of getting it, it wouldn't be frustrating in that way, it would be depressing. It would also be much easier to cut ties and not keep giving him chances. IMO, Gruden sees the same possibility in RG that we do, but RG isn't getting it done of his own doing. That is the type of thing that is most frustrating to any coach/teacher. Some have asked repeatedly why Gruden named him starter. Maybe Gruden believes he can be the guy if he'll just do what's needed. Be it adjust his attitude, or change his work habits to focus on the proper things. All speculation of course, but just as easily accurate as Gruden hates him and has it out for him.

OK, that could be the case. Regardless, and I can't emphasize this enough, GRUDEN MADE IT WORSE. He poured gasoline on the raging fire. If Griffin is as you (and plenty of others) have contended, a raging incompetent moron who can't or won't learn the playbook, Gruden should have let him flame out on his own instead of going public with everything. There are plenty of ways to set "traps" for a problem child that they can't resist falling in to, and then YOU don't have to be the one to call him a dick. He will have essentially copped to his own dickishness. Then you can go to Danny and make your case that you tried and tried, but the problem kid just wouldn't respond appropriately. Most clever people can figure these scenarios out without too much difficulty. Hell, I think Machiavelli wrote an entire book about it.

Instead, Gruden crushed his QB publicly. Which means, as the aforementioned 10th string Kicker, I'm worried to death that he is going to crush me publicly if I whiff on an extra point. In fact, it can serve as a major distraction that undermines my performance. Leaders don't do these things. They focus on improving their group or team and getting everyone to move towards a common goal.

Unless the common goal was losing, I think we can pretty much unequivocally rate Jay Gruden's first year as an unmitigated disaster.