Random Commanders Thoughts

The thing about the Belicheating, as I see it, is this. It was used to accelerate the learning curve of the entire team. Brady included.

When any coach consistently puts his players in position to succeed, he gains their trust, and has their full cooperation, 100% of the time. It makes his job exponentially easier. It builds their confidence in themselves as individuals, in their teammates collectively, and in their coach. This, combined with some talent, breeds success. And Tom Brady was the perfect icing on the cake. The team had already been made, and was at the top, unfairly IMO, by the time Cassel had to fill in. When the rest of team is in good shape, is easier to absorb Brady's loss for one season. I'm a firm believer that if Belicheat is a fraction as smart as he's professed to be, he'll retire 5 minutes after Tom.

Obviuosly, I base my opinion on this belief. That the unbridled filming of opposing teams was done exclusively by the cheaters, for several seasons.
(No other teams films were destroyed were they)
It helped to create a successful winning atmosphere that was not destroyed by the discovery of it. The "Madden Attributes" had already been forged. Through unfair deception. His formation use against the Turdbirds was legal. Years of gaining unfair advantage over opponents was not.

We'll never know how good Bill might have been. He cheated himself out of any benefit of doubt. His legacy comes with a great big asterisk. As it should.

And I'd take Joe Gibbs, and his staff, over Bill and his, every day of the week. And 3 untainted times on Sunday.

That Belicheat is a good coach, isn't debatable. That he is great, most certainly is.
 
Your opinion yeah, but an opinion totally unsupported by reality.

Since Belichick 'stopped' cheating (ie...in the years since 'Spygate'), the Patriots are 84-28. Belichick has
coached his team to the playoffs 6 out of 7 straight years. In the one year they didn't make the playoffs, the Patriots were 11-5. During that same stretch, they reached the conference title game 3 times, and the Super Bowl once.

Apparently, cheating is overrated.
 
As I said, the machine had already been built by the time the cheating stopped. The monster will live as long as Brady does.
 
Boone said:
Your opinion yeah, but an opinion totally unsupported by reality.

Since Belichick 'stopped' cheating (ie...in the years since 'Spygate'), the Patriots are 84-28. Belichick has
coached his team to the playoffs 6 out of 7 straight years. In the one year they didn't make the playoffs, the Patriots were 11-5. During that same stretch, they reached the conference title game 3 times, and the Super Bowl once.

Apparently, cheating is overrated.
Click to expand...

In one of the weakest divisions in football during that strecth.
 
he's a Parcells guy....whose coaching tree has had some successes. on the other hand...Bellickeck's coaches don't seem to do all that well...although O'Brien might change that.
 
How do you explain the non-division wins, especially in the playoffs? Solar eclipse?
 
Ax said:
As I said, the machine had already been built by the time the cheating stopped. The monster will live as long as Brady does.
Click to expand...

That makes zero logical sense. Better to say 'I choose to believe this regardless of the facts'
 
Actually, Gibbs coaching a put together team of street free agents, former NFL wannabes and work release cons in 1987 to a 3-0 strike record over clubs that had stars cross the picket line to me shows how GOOD of a HC Joe was.

Rather than detracting from his legacy Gibbs showed he could win under any circumstances.

He took teams to the SB in strike years and non-strike years.

All that while playing in a division that was easily the most competitive top to bottom.

Bellichick wins 10 straight division titles but no other club in the AFC East during that time has ever been a formidable team in the mold of the Giants, Dallas or the Eagles.

Given the Bills, Jets and Dolphins and no 49ers team to play in the conference the Redskins of the 80s would have ruled the AFC just like NE has.
 
That would hold more water if the Patriots hadn't also won countless playoff games during the Belichick era Bulldog. Against non-divisional teams. I haven't heard anyone argue that Gibbs couldn't have had equal or greater success under the same circumstances, that's a straw man. But it makes me sad that fans of great football can't give credit where it's due.

Belichick is a great coach - one of the best ever. That's my last word on that.
 
Ax said:
That Belicheat is a good coach, isn't debatable. That he is great, most certainly is.
Click to expand...

I'm torn on this. There is no doubt that the 3 Super Bowl *Titles are definitely tainted & I truly believe that those should have been forfeited & given to the other teams. The game they got caught in against the Jets in the first game of their 18-1 season should have also been forfeited. So, it should have never been a chance for them to go undefeated that season. They should have started off with a loss.

That said, even though it can be said that they haven't really won anything of any significance since the cheating, BB has successfully continued to win in the regular season & in the post season regularly since. Now, maybe it can be said that the cheating hasn't stopped, it has only changed, but they haven't been caught doing anything else, so who knows. Either way, for him to be able to change personnel regularly like he does, get the players in & out & seemingly little changes speaks volumes about his system & his ability to motivate players. It's hard to say he's not at the very least a good coach. I hate saying that, really. I hope they find out that he's still cheating because I truly can't stand the guy. But I also can't deny that the Patriots are consistently one of the hardest teams to face year in & year out. That's BB. That's good coaching.
 
Gonna throw another coach in there for the hell of it, Bill Walsh
 
Boone said:
That makes zero logical sense. Better to say 'I choose to believe this regardless of the facts'
Click to expand...
It perfectly logical.

The cheating years made it easy for the team to buy in, totally, to everything the coaches told them. All phases. As much as anything else, confidence + success = winning. He was able to easily mold the team into what every coach tries to. One cohesive unit, confident in their game plan, feeding off success. The players just thought, "Damn, coach knows everything!" They had no idea that the reason he knew what defense to call, or audible to have ready, was due to illegally filming the opposition. It's easy to look good when you DO KNOW the other teams game plan, audibles, hand signals, etc.. are.

Once the aura was established, and the talented players had been molded into confident winners, it didn't matter that the cheating was discovered. The players still believe whatever he tells them. They circle the wagons to prove they are legit. Armed with the fact that they are already polished, accomplished, quality football players. They don't know that he was able to condense 3-5 years of a learning curve into 1-2 years time. The NFL can't undo that. All they could do is destroy the evidence that proved their darling football team, was built on deception. I think it logical to assume that the evidence would have shown what they did was as bad, or worse, than anything Bonds, Pete Rose, or the 1919 Black Sox did, combined.

The doubts, that anybody may have, on the legitimacy of The Cheater's career, are 100% justified. And completely his fault. Opinions obviously differ. But the fact is, nobody who matters really knows. And either side can use logic to reach their conclusion. Bill pissed in his bed. He's gotta sleep in it. And the smell never goes away.
 
I evidently missed something...to this day Coaches cover their mouths with a clip board when calling plays and have done so for a long time. I think the ability to "steal" an opponents play calling is gamesmanship:nana:. Seriously though. The game plans are complex enough reading from one's own playbook. Digesting the opponent's as well? I don't see how it's practical in the real world.
 
Another thing...

It's one thing to know where the ball is going, it's another thing to stop it.

Take for instance, the 1982 NFC Championship game.

Russ Grimm was blatantly telling Randy White where the ball was going and they couldn't stop it.

Knowing what's going on is just half the solution. Stopping it is a whole other entity unto itself.
 
I was checking out the Twitter feeds and noticed an Ian Rappaport report...had to ask where Joe Barry would end up. I've been ignored.
 
Belichick is a great coach as much as I hate to say it although the cheating scandal does cast a shadow over it for me. When thinking about best coaches of all time, shouldn't we be considering innovation as well as titles and wins? Is he an innovator that the rest of the league tries to copy like Bill Walsh's West Coast offense, Gibbs's Counter Trey and Buddy Ryan's 46 defense?

And separate question who have been the innovators in the last 20 years?
 
Cheatin Bill is certainly a great coach in terms of winning. But...among the greatest? What is he associated with as a football mind (ala Walsh) that numbers him among the greatest ever? He's 3-2 in SBs. And the Pats have been in a weak division forever. Seems to me the core strength of the Pats has been the organizational structure they set up. Don't know what role Cheatin Bill played in that.

Now that we're thinkin about it: how should this person be looked at from an ethical pov?
 
Without Brady, Belichek goes deep in the playoffs with Bledsoe in the year they won their first. Doubt they win SB. Without injury, Bledsoe ages and is out of league within 2-3 years...there are not 3 titles in that time frame.

Belichek is a damn good coach, he coaches in a style that I have little problem with. I am not concerned about the cheating scandal...I just find him and Brady to be pretentious pricks. The 2 are linked and their run, while impressive, is a result of their union.

Walsh built a dynasty that was paralleled only by Gibbs. It was as impressive as any dynasty the NFL has ever seen.

Gibbs was simply a great coach...one of the greatest the NFL has ever seen. We are seeing the fruits of his tree bearing coaches still...Todd Bowles, Greg Manusky. These guys are good, solid coaches who are succeeding in the NFL. Will be interesting to se Manusky's defense against Tom Brady today.

Lombardi was probably the greatest of all time, but Paul Brown should be mentioned among the greats, too.

As well, Don Shula, who is rarely mentioned anymore and John Madden for that matter. Bud Grant? Chuck Knoll?

See the problem is the 49ers were a glorified team in recent history. Parcells' name still rings because he coached several other teams...building the legacy for Belichek in NE. Gibbs? Never glorious, simply hard-working. The media doesn't care for the blue collar guy...they just care about flash if it isn't in current events. Gibbs will never be recognized by much of the "media" today because he never cared about accolades, never flashy.

I think another factor when discussing what a great coach Gibbs was, that should be mentioned, is his success with other endeavors. The man is a great in NASCAR too. How many of the "All-Time" great coaches can say they succeeded so handsomely in other venues?
 
fansince62 said:
Cheatin Bill is certainly a great coach in terms of winning. But...among the greatest? What is he associated with as a football mind (ala Walsh) that numbers him among the greatest ever? He's 3-2 in SBs. And the Pats have been in a weak division forever. Seems to me the core strength of the Pats has been the organizational structure they set up. Don't know what role Cheatin Bill played in that.

Now that we're thinkin about it: how should this person be looked at from an ethical pov?
Click to expand...

I had a similar reaction to reading this discussion, fansince. Are we using strictly on-the-field success as the metric of "greatness"? Innovation-especially changing of the game type such as Bill Walsh may be a criterion as has been mentioned, superlative coaching in a severely constrained situation-Gibbs during the strike-shortened season, or Gibbs ability to seemingly bypass having an all-time elite QB to work with and still have great success, and the whole issue of "ethical behavior" just confuses it as far as I can see. I really don't think there can be a simple resolution thus I have no answer.


Of course, I've also always been of the opinion that Pete Rose should be in the MLB HOF too. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 3, Members: 0, Guests: 3)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 116) Show all

Help Users

You haven't joined any rooms.

    You haven't joined any rooms.
    Top